travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Dustin Brown stock? Not even close.
Also, stringing at 80 lbs is one way to massively improve your touch. I used to string at 80 lbs myself for years, when I was a full-time S&V-er.
Battle in The ATL - MEP vs Travler Match Thread
- Thread starter travlerajm
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Also, stringing at 80 lbs is one way to massively improve your touch. I used to string at 80 lbs myself for years, when I was a full-time S&V-er.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
No, more like it isn't particularly hard to volley better than at least three of the four guys you mentioned.
Is this the point where I finally have to bring up Sampras? 6 pt HL for a 380g racquet isn't particularly head light at all. So what now, Sampras lacks touch?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
80 lb poly or gut?
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Bringing up Sampras just helps make my point. If you want to volley with the touch of Sampras, you need to have a lot of mass in a certain part of the racquet.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
But that's exactly what I contested. 6 pts HL isn't that headlight at all, not with a racquet that heavy. If anything, Sampras' set up is much closer to that of modern pros.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I do watch much less tennis now ... and fantastic if the WTA starts seeing less mindless bashing. Maybe ATP next ... give me a Fed vs Sontoro any day over Murray vs Djokovic.
That said ... here is the WTA rankings. Tell me which one out of top 20 other than Barty that also shows this "targeting/touch". Note ... I changed to "targeting, moving ball around, mixing in short and wide, drop shots, etc" rather than "touch". I am not interested in full baseline bashing 5 millisecond contact feelings ... sorry don't want to hurt any feelings.
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Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Muchova for one. So indeed you don't watch much tennis now.I do watch much less tennis now ... and fantastic if the WTA starts seeing less mindless bashing. Maybe ATP next ... give me a Fed vs Sontoro any day over Murray vs Djokovic.
That said ... here is the WTA rankings. Tell me which one out of top 20 other than Barty that also shows this "targeting/touch". Note ... I changed to "targeting, moving ball around, mixing in short and wide, drop shots, etc" rather than "touch". I am not interested in full baseline bashing 5 millisecond contact feelings ... sorry don't want to hurt any feelings.
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Stay updated with the latest Tennis Rankings on the official Women's Tennis Association website. Explore detailed analysis of top female tennis stars, tracking their stats, performance, and rankings progress.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
I do not consider Sampras’ spec in any functional way to be similar to that of the typical modern pro.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
There are a number of reasons for that but none to do with the weight set up. Nobody makes that kind of racquet anymore, neither the frame size nor the width. And nobody uses a full gut set up. But I stand by my argument that Sampras had a relatively head heavy set up for his time.
There are lots of contradictions in your arguments. If your position is that modern pros use a head heavy set up for baseline ball bashing and that Karatsev only has touch because he doesn't, that fails to explain how he could hang with Berretini from the baseline. Come now, Karatsev is hardly your net rushing modern day Rafter, he is just a baseliner with some variety (which is actually most baseliners these days but this again is something people hung up on the past tennis days don't acknowledge). Today's baseliners neither have as much net game as Sampras/Rafter/Henman nor are as wooden as Agassi or Chang. It's a middle ground involving mixing baseline groundies with slices, drops, volleys. There's almost nobody anymore on the ATP who can't hit a slice (Simon was maybe the last) whereas Agassi was a reluctant slicer in his time.
Yesterday I practiced a lot of drop shots and angled volleys against an opponent to develop touch. They require much more touch and feel than the massive topspin shots I hit. I need to develop that side of my game now after focusing on power and topspin all this time. I should have known that from table tennis. Far easier to hit topspin smashes than a delicate jab which neutralizes incoming spin and gets the ball short and low over the net preventing the opponent from hitting it without bringing the paddle inside the table.
This is similar to basketball where players who don’t have athleticism are lauded for their IQ. As if most of those who are athletic and play at a high level don’t have high basketball IQ.
Same thing now with finesse vs power. The mindless bashing tag is used to somehow indicate that it takes less skill when it takes a lot of skill and feel to swing all out and keep the ball consistently in. It is a different type of feel than folks who want drop shots at the net are accustomed to seeing. It doesn’t mean that they are hitting without feel.
If Sampras played today he might not have switched from his 2hbh as he did. McEnroe might be a baseliner and his feel shots might be similar to what other great baseliner are hitting. The bottom line is you don’t get to become pros without great racquet control. In a different era these current gen folks would be using that racquet control to hit great volleys and touch shots at the net which would be more palatable to the ones saying the current gen doesn’t have much feel or touch.
Same thing now with finesse vs power. The mindless bashing tag is used to somehow indicate that it takes less skill when it takes a lot of skill and feel to swing all out and keep the ball consistently in. It is a different type of feel than folks who want drop shots at the net are accustomed to seeing. It doesn’t mean that they are hitting without feel.
If Sampras played today he might not have switched from his 2hbh as he did. McEnroe might be a baseliner and his feel shots might be similar to what other great baseliner are hitting. The bottom line is you don’t get to become pros without great racquet control. In a different era these current gen folks would be using that racquet control to hit great volleys and touch shots at the net which would be more palatable to the ones saying the current gen doesn’t have much feel or touch.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Yes, the topspin shots YOU hit. Don't flatter yourself that you hit them with anywhere near the RHS or timing of high level pros.
have you ever witnessed Srsh drop volley?
perhaps Srsh meant that in comparison, modern pros lack touch
I don't?
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
This, exactly. As long as you bunt the ball, you cannot understand the feeling of the tennis court being a SMALL playing area. Unless you have a lot of control, you CANNOT swing out and still keep it in. It takes honing your swing, RHS, timing to a level where you can keep hitting it in without compromising on power. Yes, lots of people can do it once trained to but that in and of itself means nothing because lots of people used to volley in the 60s too. If something is identified as a high percentage play, more players will specialize in it.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Start with hitting 50 consecutive groundies that make it to the baseline in one bounce.
You are missing the point. When a skill is no longer important, then you cannot assume it exists in a latent form but is not displayed. The chances are better that is does not exist.
is this a new rule in tennis or what?
tell me that I am supposed to always hit the ball before second bounce, like they show it on TV
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
So how come Nadal and Djokovic played out a 100 net points between them in their Wimbledon 2018 match? And their winning percentage at net was up in the 70s so if anything they could have come in even more often. Stop pretending that somebody who is a baseliner is a hack at net. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. Just as Sampras wasn't 'weak' from the baseline though you probably think that is the case.
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travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes. The Occam’s razor principle rarely fails.
I think some of the posters here who have modeled their game after the modern pros now have a sinking feeling that they will lose to GSG. That is why they are making absurd claims that aggressive topspin shots require the same soft hands and feel of drop shots and volleys.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
delete
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Damn, you impersonated him so well I thought I was indeed replying to him.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
So two in top 20? Still in exception territory. I did go watch some Muchova match video ... fun player to watch but from my limited viewing, not in the category of Barty and Sevastova as far as moving ball around constructing points.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
You asked for one and I gave you one. Had your proposition been a little less overconfident, we would have a different discussion.
If what you say were true then a strong athletic person can be a tennis pro in a relatively short time. Just have to mindlessly swing hard and fast. We all know that is not true.
Racquet control is what makes pros special. Even pros outside the top 200. That racquet control cannot be achieved without feel.
It is not matching with your idea of feel of tennis in the 70s or early 80s. That doesn’t mean there is no feel. Also using McEnroe or Paes as an example is meaningless. Both might be baseliners now if they played singles in this era. You would wrongly infer they had no feel.
Definitely he was weak from the baseline, just like Federer had a weak 1-handed backhand till he switched to the 98.
I was referring to the footwork
tell me that there is a rule that forbids me from waiting till the ball will come to me, actually making me chase the ball before the second bounce
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
How thoroughly predictable! Nevermind the number of times he owned Agassi's ass from the baseline. Sampras said he made a point of beating Agassi in long rallies at the beginning of the match because he knew Agassi would lose hope once that happened. And he was right.
Dragy
Legend
Last played in 2017... cmon man, get in 2021 with us!
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
Say it ain't so! I guess we have been doing it all wrong. By we, I mean, Fed, Nadal, Djokovic. Blimey, we should have been waiting for the second bounce as the wise one does.
It is not about that. It is about the fact that it takes a different set of skills to have soft hands and finesse. The same player can have both to a large degree and that is usually true for a pro, but rec players like those who play GSG need not.
Fxanimator1
Hall of Fame
Or guys who cannot move well or hit hard and keep the ball in are using GSG as a cover to somehow show how they are playing with feel but are unfortunately in the wrong era.
I play with modified conti grip because I came to the realization that starting late Iwon’t develop the skill to hit hard and keep it in. I hit a lot of slices and drop shots. I am not deluding myself though that I am in any way superior in skills to someone who can crush it from the baseline. I am just compensating for my lack of skills.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
But GSG isn't winning only with exceptional feel. I dare say it isn't even exceptional. It's his ability to think so clearly on a tennis court; that's simply priceless at the rec level. So few rec players can actually strategize under tournament pressure but he does it again and again. Even when he's losing, it's not for want of trying to make changes to adjust.
Exactly. Technique you use is only a small part. Mental toughness, match smarts, competitive fire, fitness, consistency all come into play. When GSG meets someone who matches him in that and has better strokes , he will lose.
GSG is a humble smart player who seems like he wants to keep getting better. He himself has never debated or denied this.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
I used "mindless bashing tag" to describe how much I enjoyed watching those types of matches ... nothing to do with any "ability/skill" level. They are pros ... rarified air skill level ... this is a discussion about what type of play wins in the pros, and different types of play that can win in rec tennis. Targeting (MEP) can win in rec tennis ... but will make you $ poor
I'm trying to win the debate ... I can't show weakness.
A lot of posters here have not played table tennis at an intermediate level, like I have. There is actually a higher percentage of GSG-types there, whose simple bunting shots and slices can make their topspinning opponents overhit and miss. When you dig deeper, you will find that these bunters have fantastic touch, placing the ball wherever they want and applying just the right amount of force. It is a different skill from hitting smashes. It is quite obvious. As a player develops, he learns to counter-jab their jabs and prevent them from jabbing in the first place with his aggressiveness. At a higher level, there is sufficient touch and feel to hit some of these shots, and the rest are not necessary. Yet, the skill level of the now-lower-level bunters has not been exceeded - their opponents have aggressive skills which are better and sufficient finesse to compliment them with defensive shots. Same in tennis.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
It may be lost on some posters that I made a major racquet switch mid-match against GSG. I started the match using an old school spec (50g of gorilla tape concentrated above the top of the handle) that gave me excellent touch. I was feeling confident about my chances early on. But after GSG escaped multiple game-point deficits with clutch shots in the last two games of the first set to grab the first set, and then played with better focus than me in the first several games of the second, I found myself in a hole early in the 2nd set.
At that time, I panicked and made a serious tactical error. I switched to my head heavy clay court spec frame with light handle. After that point, I no longer had the touch and control that had kept me competitive in the match. After an initial adjustment to my spinnier ball (I won the first game after the switch, including a rare neutral ball rally error from GSG), GSG sensed my weakness and lack of precision, and stepped in to his shots more offensively, hastening my demise.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
On this point we agree.
Dolgopolov85
G.O.A.T.
I have and I could absolutely introduce you to consistency monsters with killer topspin who would beat bunters for sheer pace. I am talking LONG backhand rallies...in table tennis. They would just keep taking it on the rise on the backhand and make it a game of who would blink first under pressure. It's always about time pressure once the level of play is sufficiently high.
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There you go “ Fantastic touch, the right amount of force, placing the ball where you want. “
Baseliners who swing all out and keep the ball in. Now you know how they are doing it.
As for rec players and ping pong or other sports, that is just a meaningless argument. Most rec players who play a cat and mouse game are compensating for not having the above skills/ touch you mention to hit hard and keep it in.
There you go “ Fantastic touch, the right amount of force, placing the ball where you want. “
Baseliners who swing all out and keep the ball in. Now you know how they are doing it.
As for rec players and ping pong or other sports, that is just a meaningless argument. Most rec players who play a cat and mouse game are compensating for not having the above skills/ touch you mention to hit hard and keep it in.
I'm sure it's been pointed out before, but the assertions of @travlerajm are simply the logical culmination of the "pro stock" fallacy: viz., that if we could just get our hands on this custom hardware, we would play as the pros do with it. Really good players will beat you with any racquet produced in last twenty or thirty years, after a small adjustment period and with very little, if any, change to their game.
You are taking this more seriously than you should. Let us say you and GSG play 10 times and you win 7. What difference does it make? In the grand scheme of things both of you are good rec players. Nothing less. Nothing more. So many good rec players out there in many sports.
Both of you play matches and seem to have fun. That is all that should matter. And a beer win or lose.
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
Clash Ah ah
Rookie
ByeByePoly
G.O.A.T.
@travlerajm ... played some of my best tennis ever with KFour 105 before I joined here and found out that should have been impossible.
in approximately 99% of cases, the really good players won't need that adjustment period at all
they will simply beat the amateurs
"Massive topspin shots I hit"
frankly?
I think Srsh is much better at touch shots
although, who knows, how the top spin game developed since the adoption of that Nadal-esque FH
