Beating pushers in Junior tennis - 12U

topspinnerMN

New User
My kid has been playing top kids in his section and 90% of these kids (top 3 kids) win by consistency. They don't hit winners. They rely on opponents eventually making a mistake. My kid tries to keep up with them, leading to rallies as long a 50 shots. He eventually gets tired and starts making mistakes. He has great net skills (volleys, overheads) but doesn't come to the net often because he afraid of being lobbed or being passed. His biggest strength is his forehand and when he rips one cross court, he gets a weak return from his opponents. Instead of stepping in and taking it in the air or closing into the net, he stays at the baseline and the rallies continue. Should I encourage him to approach the net more often to beat these players instead of bashing from baseline? My theory is that he will lose a few matches with this approach in the beginning but that will help him get comfortable at the net and might eventually start winning. He is losing to these kids anyway by staying at the baseline.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
The time honored method to beat pushers is to come to net or force them to come to net. But make sure your son has practiced approach shots and net play including overheads enough so that he can execute well in matches. Implementing a strategy that he can’t execute well will cause him to stop doing it quickly.

If he is forcing weak balls, why isn’t he able to hit power baseline shots off these short balls into open space to force errors or hit winners to end points? Maybe he should practice his short ball and midcourt play first as that is even more fundamental to becoming a good player. It takes two passive players to play a 50-shot rally. Is he also hitting most of his rally balls into the middle-middle no-hit zone in the court? If he practices hitting closer to the lines and can execute it in matches, that will also shorten rallies.

If his opponents are hitting slower, deep moonballs on defense rather than weak short balls, then maybe your son’s weapons are not good enough to end points. Swinging volleys off deep moonballs are tough shots to execute consistently if you are at the typical height of a 12-year old as the net is a big factor.

Lastly advanced players shorten points with their serve and return. The reason why you see many long rallies at 10 and 12 year categories is because those players haven’t developed strong serves and returns yet. If you have your kid practicing those shots more than his peers, that might give him an edge also. A good serve doesn’t mean a faster serve which could be tough at his age, but it can be a greater variety of spins and ability to hit targets close to the lines. Top juniors at the junior academy at my club work on their serve, return and +1 drills constantly. Practicing slices and short angles to bring the opponent to net is also not practiced enough at very young junior levels, but that is also a key to beating pushers.

Also be patient with your kid. The 12-year olds with the best shot tolerance develop bigger serves/returns/rally-ending shots when they grow taller/stronger and they still remain the best players at 14 and 16, but now they will have big weapons in addition to great consistency.
 
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topspinnerMN

New User
If his opponents are hitting slower, deep moonballs on defense rather than weak short balls, then maybe your son’s weapons are not good enough to end points. Swinging volleys off deep moonballs are tough shots to execute consistently if you are at the typical height of a 12-year old as the net is a big factor.
This is what they do. Deep moon balls or deep slices. He does put away when he gets those short balls but those are rare.
He just keeps bashing away forehands to the left corner, right corner and occasionally high loopy balls that jump out of opponents height and hits back fence. 90% of this shots land really close to the baseline. They all keep coming back. Its like he is playing against a wall. Thanks for these tips.
 

topspinnerMN

New User
When I say weak returns, he doesn't get short balls but slow balls going over the middle of the net that are landing deep that he could've easily put away if he was closer to the net.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
When I say weak returns, he doesn't get short balls but slow balls going over the middle of the net that are landing deep that he could've easily put away if he was closer to the net.
floating return deep middle is not 'weak'.. it's by design a good neutralizing play.. you can counter with sv.

at that age it's tricky. you look at the top kids 12U there are some long points.

in the end does it really matter... kid is the one on the court. his tennis computer is telling him long rallies is still the best strat.

as they grow older now the serve becomes real weapon then serve+1 becomes legit.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
This is what they do. Deep moon balls or deep slices. He does put away when he gets those short balls but those are rare.
He just keeps bashing away forehands to the left corner, right corner and occasionally high loopy balls that jump out of opponents height and hits back fence. 90% of this shots land really close to the baseline. They all keep coming back. Its like he is playing against a wall. Thanks for these tips.
Is he really bashing forehands if he is not hurting his opponents and they are able to hit very safe neutralizing balls back deep? Hitting shots hard enough to open up space on the court or force opponents into errors/short balls is a weapon. If he is not doing that, then he is just giving his opponents an easy rhythm that they can counter-punch against and if he is hitting lower trajectories than his opponents, he is likely to miss first in long rallies. Pace has to be high enough to hurt opponents or it can be counter-productive and it might be better to teach him to vary rhythm with different spins, levels of spin, trajectories, pace etc. and try to force errors that way. He has to learn how to bring them to net at least.

Against deep moonballs, coming to net is the right strategy, but the transition volley and approach shots have to be high quality or he will get lobbed or passed a lot. Players who can hit high-spin deep moonballs at will without missing are formidable opponents especially if they are able to handle your son’s serves easily.
 

ey039524

Hall of Fame
He needs to learn to hit droppers. Then, he can follow them in and play cat/mouse or stay back and force the opponent to hit volleys or overheads. If he's comfortable at the net, he should come in, like Fed.
 

topspinnerMN

New User
Is he really bashing forehands if he is not hurting his opponents and they are able to hit very safe neutralizing balls back deep? Hitting shots hard enough to open up space on the court or force opponents into errors/short balls is a weapon. If he is not doing that, then he is just giving his opponents an easy rhythm that they can counter-punch against and if he is hitting lower trajectories than his opponents, he is likely to miss first in long rallies. Pace has to be high enough to hurt opponents or it can be counter-productive and it might be better to teach him to vary rhythm with different spins, levels of spin, trajectories, pace etc. and try to force errors that way. He has to learn how to bring them to net at least.

Against deep moonballs, coming to net is the right strategy, but the transition volley and approach shots have to be high quality or he will get lobbed or passed a lot. Players who can hit high-spin deep moonballs at will without missing are formidable opponents especially if they are able to handle your son’s serves easily.
He is ripping those from behind the baseline. I'm guessing its probably why he is not hurting anyone as he is not strong enough to rip winners from two feet behind the baseline. He is 11. His coach says his forehand technique is really good. Any forehand he hits inside the baseline when he has time to set up is almost always a winner.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
He is ripping those from behind the baseline. I'm guessing its probably why he is not hurting anyone as he is not strong enough to rip winners from two feet behind the baseline. He is 11. His coach says his forehand technique is really good. Any forehand he hits inside the baseline when he has time to set up is almost always a winner.
In long rallies, you have to try to take time away or open up space to create an opening to win the point. It looks like he is unable to take time enough to bother the top opponents. In that case he has to patiently try to open up space. Instead of ‘ripping‘ shots from behind the baseline with no particular tactic in mind, he is better off hitting shots slower, but with more precision closer and closer to one sideline (usually the cross court line) to take his opponent into the doubles alley - then he can rip a shot into the open corner on the other side when the time is right. Or he can utilize the length of the court by hitting short angles and dropshots and then pass or lob.

You have to explain to him that there has to be tactical awareness and a purpose before hitting each shot. If he is hitting flatter trajectory shots from behind the baseline that don’t hurt his opponents, the only strategy his opponent needs is to hit deep and wait for an error. In this case, he will be on the wrong end of that point pattern more often than not if his opponent has better shot tolerance than him. So, he needs a different tactic to win the majority of points once it is established early in a match that he has less shot tolerance.
 
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topspinnerMN

New User
In long rallies, you have to try to take time away or open up space to create an opening to win the point. It looks like he is unable to take time enough to bother the top opponents. In that case he has to patiently try to open up space. Instead of ‘ripping‘ shots from behind the baseline with no particular tactic in mind, he is better off hitting shots slower, but with more precision closer and closer to one sideline to take his opponent into the doubles alley - then he can rip a shot into the open corner on the other side when the time is right. Or he can utilize the length of the court by hitting short angles and dropshots and then pass or lob.

You have to explain to him that there has to be tactical awareness and a purpose before hitting each shot. If he is hitting flatter trajectory shots from behind the baseline that don’t hurt his opponents, the only strategy his opponent needs is to hit deep and wait for an error. In this case, he will be on the wrong end of that point pattern more often than not if his opponent has better shot tolerance than him. So, he needs a different tactic to win the majority of points once it is established early in a match that he has less shot tolerance.
Thank you.
 

10sbeast888

Hall of Fame
imagine - as an adult say your 5'10"... now you gotta cover both doubles alleys, and the baseline is 2ft further back so lobs are much easier to execute, and the service box is 1ft shorter so you can't fire any flat bombs in.

that's what these kids are dealing with at that age. moonballs obviously the go-to strategy.. you play aggressive you lose.

there is not much you can do.
 

Bagumbawalla

Talk Tennis Guru
This reminds me of how Bobby Riggs beat Margaret Court, way back when.
He played dropshots, lobs and groundstrokes without pace to counter her normally strong groundstrokes.
Apparently even pros cannot entirely avoid pusher tactics.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
This is what they do. Deep moon balls or deep slices. He does put away when he gets those short balls but those are rare.
He just keeps bashing away forehands to the left corner, right corner and occasionally high loopy balls that jump out of opponents height and hits back fence. 90% of this shots land really close to the baseline. They all keep coming back. Its like he is playing against a wall. Thanks for these tips.
At the junior level, it might be easier to develop net approach skills by approaching behind a solid moonball (aka the moonball and charge). As soon as you see the opponent is going to allow a moonball to bounce and push him near the back fence, that’s a good opportunity to approach to apply some pressure. Even if he sees you coming in, it is difficult to hit a parang shot winner from that far back, and there us plenty of time to get under a lob.

Michael Chang employed this tactic effectively in the 1989 FO final. And I can confirm it works great in adult rec league level tennis.

If your opponent counters the lob and charge by playing closer to the baseline, then that’s a win because he will make more errors if he has to field your son’s balls on the rise.
 

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
My kid has been playing top kids in his section and 90% of these kids (top 3 kids) win by consistency. They don't hit winners. They rely on opponents eventually making a mistake. My kid tries to keep up with them, leading to rallies as long a 50 shots. He eventually gets tired and starts making mistakes. He has great net skills (volleys, overheads) but doesn't come to the net often because he afraid of being lobbed or being passed. His biggest strength is his forehand and when he rips one cross court, he gets a weak return from his opponents. Instead of stepping in and taking it in the air or closing into the net, he stays at the baseline and the rallies continue. Should I encourage him to approach the net more often to beat these players instead of bashing from baseline? My theory is that he will lose a few matches with this approach in the beginning but that will help him get comfortable at the net and might eventually start winning. He is losing to these kids anyway by staying at the baseline.
really good 12 year old boys should be UTR 5+ and they hit plenty of winners from baseline. if he can rip groudies, maybe train him to hard down the line instead of cross court. 9-10 year old often do slow moonball marathon.
 

LOBALOT

Legend
Having been through it I would take a breath... sit tight... and realize if he sticks with it he has a lot of tennis between now and his later teenage years and there is a ton of change that happens.

Kids your kid used to crush will crush him
Kids that used to rip the ball your kid will hit off the court.
Kids that were pushers will will get stronger.
Kids that used to beat everyone but were one trick pony players will fade away.

OP, just make sure he is getting the best possible coaching you can afford and it will all come together for him. You will see. He just needs to work hard and be determined and that is where you can help motivate him.
 
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fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
My kid has been playing top kids in his section and 90% of these kids (top 3 kids) win by consistency. They don't hit winners. They rely on opponents eventually making a mistake. My kid tries to keep up with them, leading to rallies as long a 50 shots. He eventually gets tired and starts making mistakes. He has great net skills (volleys, overheads) but doesn't come to the net often because he afraid of being lobbed or being passed. His biggest strength is his forehand and when he rips one cross court, he gets a weak return from his opponents. Instead of stepping in and taking it in the air or closing into the net, he stays at the baseline and the rallies continue. Should I encourage him to approach the net more often to beat these players instead of bashing from baseline? My theory is that he will lose a few matches with this approach in the beginning but that will help him get comfortable at the net and might eventually start winning. He is losing to these kids anyway by staying at the baseline.
I was a pure serve and volley player growing up and I coach high school teams now (boys in the spring and girls in the fall). It's honestly good to hear that your young slugger has some different tennis tools to work with, but that's only step #1. Now he has to learn how to build things with those tools.

Thought #1: How's he doing with tactics? Many kids will learn to hit balls really well, but then they go out to play against others and all they do out there is chase the ball down and hit it back - sometimes they'll hit it rather hard, but that's about it. In that situation (and mindset), all they're doing is reacting to their opponents.

The biggest step forward that many kids in the high school ranks can learn is to formulate a basic plan before playing nearly every point. That can be as simple as planning to hit every ball to an opponent's weaker side or perhaps hitting every single ball cross-court so that they're hitting higher percentage just about all the time. This idea may sound obvious, but it's remarkably uncommon for kids in competition to revisit a simple plan to at least limit an opponent's advantage. But when they learn to do this, it can be transformative for them. Suddenly it's their opponents who are doing a lot more of the scrambling.

In the case of your son, he may want to occasionally plan to serve and volley so that he's attacking an opponent right away and generating unexpected pressure that way. Or he may want to plan to begin a rally using neutralizing baseline shots and then attack the net when he gets a short ball that he can effectively use to approach behind.

In any case, using a simple plan will give him a chance to control more of the action than when he's merely reacting to what comes from the other side of the net. It can be a little repetitive, but it brings an essential mental edge compared with playing a purely reactive game.

Thought #2: He needs to learn how and when to attack a short ball.

If he's getting discouraged by routinely being lobbed or passed when he goes to net against these moonballers and pushers, he's probably not putting those opponents in enough trouble with his approach shots. That's a fundamental part of the craft. Going to the net in itself doesn't automatically put pressure on an opponent. The approach shot should put the opponent into something of a tight spot before the attacker moves forward. This could mean that the opponent is scrambling to get to that approach shot or perhaps it leaves him stranded deep in a corner as your son is moving in.

One of the singles girls I coach is busy embracing all-court tactics and one of her biggest revelations this year was coming to understand the difference between approaching cross-court (bad!) vs. approaching straight ahead (down the line). Although she's putting up with the headaches of learning to effectively attack the net in the near term, she knows that she needs to be able to do more that just out-hit tougher opponents if she wants to beat those tougher girls going forward. She needs a Plan B.

With a little guidance and some repetition to build the instincts for what to do and when to do it, your son can do the same. And I think that he's at a great age to really get going with it. Tiny kids don't have the wingspan or athletic ability for successfully attacking the net like they do when they get a little bigger and stronger. If he gets after it right now, he should be able to make big progress in a big hurry.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
I still think that not enough emphasis is being suggested to control matches with his serve. If any player can hit targets (wide, middle, body) consistently with at least two spins for 1st (flat/slice) and 2nd (topslice/kick), they are going to control point patterns better and can find holes in their opponent’s return game to set up easy +1 shots. If you are a junior who has already learned the fundamentals enough to be competitive in top age group tournaments, make a weapon of your serve and then make tactical plans for matches based on your serve setting up another weapon like a FH or net play.

I don’t see a lot of top juniors who depend a lot on S/V or constant net play to win tournaments anymore especially at younger ages when they are not tall. Very rare to find kids who can hit overheads so well that they can’t be lobbed against effectively and also many young opponents can hit passes well especially if they have moved to poly already and the net player doesn’t have much reach. But the kids who can shorten points do well especially as they have to play multiple matches over a couple of days to do well in tournaments. Otherwise, the fitter kids who can stand the physical grind of long points and matches over two days do well.

When I play, I try to figure out early in a match what combination of serve location and spin gives me more FHs as my +1 shot. If I can execute that well, usually I can hold with ease and then focus on getting breaks with less pressure. If the returner can make me hit a lot of BHs on +1 shots, my serve points and games are much longer typically. If I’m not holding serve easily and getting broken or playing long games constantly on serve, it is hard to muster up the confidence and energy to return well and secure multiple breaks to win a set and then do that to win two sets. I think the modern game in the poly era especially on hard courts is about maximizing your weapons early in points tactically.

The coaches at my club’s junior academy are constantly drilling the top kids to improve their serve, return and +1 shots. It should be mentioned that these kids already have a strong ground game with shot tolerance and some weapons. The lesser ranked kids in each age group might still be working on their ground game and other foundational shots.
 
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