Beating the chop shot/ slicer

[Ft.S]

I apologize in advance if this is long. I am one of these slicers who can drive people crazy. Over the weekend i played and won a usta match and recorded it using the playsight software. I am 53 and have been playing tennis for 3 years after 35 years off. I will play people in their 20's and win. Not to be full of myself but i win a overwhelming % of my singles (prefer) and doubles. I viewed the match yesterday that i dominated and after seeing it came away with the following thought. it amazes me that i beat anyone yet alone most everyone. I can't speak for all slicers but most of the generalities that are made do not apply to me. my play is to slice every shot and i do it multiple ways and most of the time to my opponents backhand so the ball is moving away from their body. the shot can be low and deep to the baseline, it can me mid court or it can be a drop shot to either the bh or fh. I can wait till the last second to decide what i want to do with the ball. most people i beat in my opinion are better tennis players than myself (better form, more graceful strokes, better serves). I love the dropshot bringing a opponent into the net and then lob him. a friend who wont play me in singles anymore made the comment after being beaten that he came into the net 45 times and didn't hit a single volley. i have found that if i can get a opponent into a 3rd set i will usually win because a lot of the "great" shots he might make returning a ball in the first set, well getting down low, bending your knees and making those shots in set 3 are much more difficult. If someone hits a high ball to me i have 2 options 1) often times i will treat it as a overhead and serve/smash the ball but i can also easily chop those shots. tennis is a puzzle and it sometimes takes a while to solve the puzzle. I know what my weakness is and it is my backhand, if someone can somehow pick on my backhand they will beat me. I've been called crafty, strategic, frustrating to play against. i don't hit the ball nearly as hard as my opponents and at least for me I enjoy someone who hits with pace but i simply try and put my opponent in uncomfortable situations on the court and move into the net to win the point. I don't expect my slices to be winners but they set my game up so the next shot or 2 will be a winner. I can hit topspin forehands and practice all these shots using my ball machine but my slice is a much higher % shot. i wish i had some words of wisdom but if you have questions i am happy to answer. i found this thread by googling how to beat a slicer chopper in tennis

So honest, thank you

All I can say is that it is tremendously frustrating to play with players that has similar style to yours, it makes me very angry, but my anger is not towards players like you, but towards myself for the fact that I do get frustrated with such play. I haven't solved the puzzle, and I dread playing players that play like you. Some day I'll learn

 

[OrangePower]

Not to be full of myself but i win a overwhelming % of my singles (prefer) and doubles.

All this means is that you are playing at too low a level No matter how good we are, there are always those who are better...

 

[LFC]

I was in a very similar situation this past weekend at my league match. I lost the first set 1-6 to a lefty who was great at varying his depth, and taking all my pace away with slice. I was so frustrated. As many people mentioned earlier, the best way to combat this is by focusing on footwork and early preparation. I started throwing a bunch of slice off both wings back at him and it threw him off a bit. Once I got back to basics and focused on footwork I won 6-1 in the second and 10-8 in a tiebreak.

Focusing on footwork, having early preparation, and not abandoning your strengths and game plan will help when playing anyone with a slightly unorthodox playing style.

 

[Startzel]

All this means is that you are playing at too low a level No matter how good we are, there are always those who are better...

Precisely. I remember when I first started playing and this style of play frustrated me. Now I just overpower them.

At the same time I'm transitioning to a higher level and those guys are overpowering me

 

[Dartagnan64]

Well, trader, I would never want to play you. Being a crafty chop shotter has its pros and cons. Pro is you'll beat a lot of other players with your slice and dice shots. Cons is that no one will ever invite you for social matches.

Most people hate playing pushers and chop shotters. The only place i see them is league and club tourney's. And I'm happy to be done with them when the match is over. Some may enjoy the challenge of trying to beat that style, but you aren't going to want to face it for your weekly social hit. Court time is too precious to waste running down drop shots and lobs.

Unfortunately my wife will continue to be flustered by the pushers and slicers of the world until she develops a better repertoire of shots. She has a flat FH and a flat BH and volleys with an Eastern grip. And nothing I say will change that seemingly. She can't hit a drop shot unless it accidently comes off her frame. She can lob but often prefers the passing shot. If she could drop shot, she'd be lethal as her passing shots are very difficult to read.

 

[Power Player]

Two things I found odd here:

"A slicer likes the ball low, doesn't like high topspin": Personally, I like the ball right at the level of my chin when I'm slicing (that's not low). Now, if by "high" we're saying above the head then, yeah, I'd agree. A lot of topspin, above the level of my head, yes those can be tough. Also, low shots are often difficult to slice.
"Slicers don't like pace": Personally, I love pace; makes slicing so much easier. Now, pace plus moving me off the court - that's tough. But simply pace to my BH side makes slicing easier, not harder. In fact, it's the slower, higher balls that are harder to slice because you have to generate your own power which is harder when you're slicing.

As someone that slices 90% of their BHs I found that video odd. (Although I agreed completely that coming to the net against the slice is the quickest way to victory... assuming one can volley well - and most folks don't.)

I agree, both things stood out to me as false, at least at higher levels.

A good slicer takes the ball earlier, so it is tough to get the ball above them. They play right up on the baseline.

They love pace too. They just chop it back down.

The real secret for me is to attack the corners since they are giving those up when they hug the baselines. As soon as they start lunging, I crash the net.

 

[LeeD]

Since chopper/slicers exist in the lower 4.5 ranges, so I cannot beat them. Just too hard to consistently hit deep with angles and pace, then move forwards with good approach shots, then put away the next shot. Being slow of foot, deep lobs kill me, and low angle passes just set up my opponent for their next lob.
Kinda like beating a Santoro/Rosewall type of player, you can against most, but there's going to be someone around you haven't yet met who can slice and dice you off the court. Most are old farts you can outlast if you're in great shape.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I am one of these slicers who can drive people crazy. Over the weekend i played and won a usta match and recorded it using the playsight software. I am 53 and have been playing tennis for 3 years after 35 years off. I will play people in their 20's and win. Not to be full of myself but i win a overwhelming % of my singles (prefer) and doubles. I viewed the match yesterday that i dominated and after seeing it came away with the following thought. it amazes me that i beat anyone yet alone most everyone.

I'm not surprised: at most levels of tennis, the winner is the one who makes fewer errors. If you're consistent getting the ball in, this skill alone is enough to beat many opponents, especially the impatient ones and the ones who feel you're not playing "real tennis" who get frustrated with your ability to keep the ball in play.

most people i beat in my opinion are better tennis players than myself (better form, more graceful strokes, better serves).

Of the 3 traits you mentioned, only the last one is an indicator of skill. Form and grace do not necessarily translate into being a better player. If the people you're beating really were better than you...they'd win. The fact that you're winning means they don't know how to deal with your style of play [a common problem that gets less and less common the higher you go].

I love the dropshot bringing a opponent into the net and then lob him. a friend who wont play me in singles anymore made the comment after being beaten that he came into the net 45 times and didn't hit a single volley.

He could remedy that by playing S&V: no point in lobbing the RoS because he's still too far away from the net.

Also, unless you're a spectacular lobber, I'm guessing he could have hit OHs on at least some of those 45 occasions but that his OH needs work?

i have found that if i can get a opponent into a 3rd set i will usually win because a lot of the "great" shots he might make returning a ball in the first set, well getting down low, bending your knees and making those shots in set 3 are much more difficult. If someone hits a high ball to me i have 2 options 1) often times i will treat it as a overhead and serve/smash the ball but i can also easily chop those shots. tennis is a puzzle and it sometimes takes a while to solve the puzzle. I know what my weakness is and it is my backhand, if someone can somehow pick on my backhand they will beat me. I've been called crafty, strategic, frustrating to play against. i don't hit the ball nearly as hard as my opponents and at least for me I enjoy someone who hits with pace but i simply try and put my opponent in uncomfortable situations on the court and move into the net to win the point. I don't expect my slices to be winners but they set my game up so the next shot or 2 will be a winner. I can hit topspin forehands and practice all these shots using my ball machine but my slice is a much higher % shot. i wish i had some words of wisdom but if you have questions i am happy to answer. i found this thread by googling how to beat a slicer chopper in tennis

I think you've optimized your game for your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses. And you're mentally tough. That makes you a tough opponent.

One caveat: the ceiling of this style of play seems to be around 4.0. If you have designs on moving past that, you will have to develop weapons beyond the ones you have which will involve increased risk and therefore more errors.

 

[NTRPolice]

These are so hard to play in doubles.

I hate playing these because every error you make burns you like a hemorrhoid that doesnt go away. They dont hit many winners, and just entice you to make errors or play super safe shots that accidentally pop up and are put away.

The mistake many people make is assuming that these players are under level. I mean, they sort of ARE, but not as much as you'd expect.

The best strategy is pushing them deep on balls you can get deep, or slicing it back to them short when they are short. Playing topspin is more consistent for winning tennis, and chopping it back to them when you are close prevents you from making any errors from taking too much of a swing. Punish their partner. People who play like this usually have weak serves you can tee off on. Blast their partner every single time. It sends a message. Hit every single OH at their partner when they slice lob. This strategy forces them OUT of their game because they will try to protect their partner. When they repeatedly slice lob you, never hit it back at them. Slice lobs are basically like saying "I'm waiting for you to make an error".

 

[Startzel]

These are so hard to play in doubles.

I hate playing these because every error you make burns you like a hemorrhoid that doesnt go away. They dont hit many winners, and just entice you to make errors or play super safe shots that accidentally pop up and are put away.

The mistake many people make is assuming that these players are under level. I mean, they sort of ARE, but not as much as you'd expect.

The best strategy is pushing them deep on balls you can get deep, or slicing it back to them short when they are short. Playing topspin is more consistent for winning tennis, and chopping it back to them when you are close prevents you from making any errors from taking too much of a swing. Punish their partner. People who play like this usually have weak serves you can tee off on. Blast their partner every single time. It sends a message. Hit every single OH at their partner when they slice lob. This strategy forces them OUT of their game because they will try to protect their partner. When they repeatedly slice lob you, never hit it back at them. Slice lobs are basically like saying "I'm waiting for you to make an error".

I don't see how this strategy is successful in doubles. When you add two players on court it takes away a slicers biggest target, open space.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I don't see how this strategy is successful in doubles. When you add two players on court it takes away a slicers biggest target, open space.

I'm going to do the unthinkable and agree with my distinguished colleague Startzel: not only does the slicer have two opponents but also two opponents at net. The slice will work some of the time against people who are not used to volleying an incoming slice and the volley will go straight into the bottom of the net. But once you learn to counter the spin, the single biggest weapon is taken away: a slice that would have gone deep and pinned the opponent on the BL is now a potential sitter to volley for a putaway. And poaching becomes more effective against a slice which typically travels more slowly than a drive.

Yes he/they can lob but then we can test our OHs. I'd rate my chances of winning against such a team considerably higher than against a traditional team that attacks the net.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

These are so hard to play in doubles.

My #1 rule is to realize that the other team isn't going to beat us with winners or forcing shots; they are going to beat us by capitalizing on our errors. Then I have to plan accordingly.

I hate playing these because every error you make burns you like a hemorrhoid that doesnt go away. They dont hit many winners, and just entice you to make errors or play super safe shots that accidentally pop up and are put away.

For me, they just present another challenge, no different than a big server or big FHer or wild poacher or...I have to adapt.

The mistake many people make is assuming that these players are under level. I mean, they sort of ARE, but not as much as you'd expect.

I do not assume they are under level. If they're in my division, they are at level until I can prove otherwise.

The best strategy is pushing them deep on balls you can get deep, or slicing it back to them short when they are short. Playing topspin is more consistent for winning tennis, and chopping it back to them when you are close prevents you from making any errors from taking too much of a swing. Punish their partner. People who play like this usually have weak serves you can tee off on. Blast their partner every single time. It sends a message. Hit every single OH at their partner when they slice lob. This strategy forces them OUT of their game because they will try to protect their partner. When they repeatedly slice lob you, never hit it back at them. Slice lobs are basically like saying "I'm waiting for you to make an error".

I would imagine that a slicing team would more likely play 2 back to protect against precisely what you suggest. This relieves any pressure on your returns but increases the pressure on your volleys because you no longer have that net man as a target. Therefore, your volleys have to be more accurate.

I would S&V [then again, when don't I S&V?], C&C, hit short/angled/low slice approaches to force them forward or heavy TS pseudo-moonies to force them back and wait for the lob of which I know there will be many. Assuming we can execute reasonably well on this strategy, it comes down to how good their lobs are vs our OHs.

I have yet to come across this style in 4.5 doubles. I definitely saw it being effective at <= 4.0.

 

[Minion]

The most recent example of this would be Wawrinka vs Mischa Zverev and Cilic vs Mischa Zverev.

Wawrinka fell into that trap, but Cilic changed his tactics and won.

Mischa almost exclusively sliced his backhand, and he was super consistent with it. The mistake Wawrinka did, was to try and outplay him on that wing, having no pace to work with. Wawrinka made a ton of mistakes and lost. Cilic tried the same, but quickly realised he's not going to win that way, so once Mischa started slicing, Cilic started moving the ball around, going to his FH, coming to the net, putting pressure. .....in a nutshell.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I agree, both things stood out to me as false, at least at higher levels.

A good slicer takes the ball earlier, so it is tough to get the ball above them. They play right up on the baseline.

They love pace too. They just chop it back down.

The real secret for me is to attack the corners since they are giving those up when they hug the baselines. As soon as they start lunging, I crash the net.

Beat a slice/junk ball artist last night in league this way. He'd just redirect any power I had with a cut slice or side slice with lots of spin. I was worried i wouldn't be able to get under his low balls with my SW grip. But I started to move him around, keep good depth and as soon as I got him out wide and saw that he was giving up sitters that way, I started heading to the net for putaway volleys. Attacking the corners really worked, as otherwise they'll sit at the baseline all day just redirecting shots with goofy spin. Ended up beating him at love.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Two things I found odd here:

"A slicer likes the ball low, doesn't like high topspin": Personally, I like the ball right at the level of my chin when I'm slicing (that's not low). Now, if by "high" we're saying above the head then, yeah, I'd agree. A lot of topspin, above the level of my head, yes those can be tough. Also, low shots are often difficult to slice...

one point about making a slicer hit the ball chin high...
* the sliced ball does not stay nearly as low (or skid as much), that when it's hit at waist or knee height, or has to be hit harder/more spin in order to get in to skid... if not, it tends to sit up (if it doesn't have enough spin to skid).
* also if you get a moonball-ish shot to land deep, you force a slicer to hit on the rise (which i find tougher, because my swing path becomes more parallel to the rising ball path (eg. high to low swing, matching a low to high bounce)

 

[NTRPolice]

I don't see how this strategy is successful in doubles. When you add two players on court it takes away a slicers biggest target, open space.

I'm going to do the unthinkable and agree with my distinguished colleague Startzel: not only does the slicer have two opponents but also two opponents at net. The slice will work some of the time against people who are not used to volleying an incoming slice and the volley will go straight into the bottom of the net. But once you learn to counter the spin, the single biggest weapon is taken away: a slice that would have gone deep and pinned the opponent on the BL is now a potential sitter to volley for a putaway. And poaching becomes more effective against a slice which typically travels more slowly than a drive.

Yes he/they can lob but then we can test our OHs. I'd rate my chances of winning against such a team considerably higher than against a traditional team that attacks the net.

Slicers in 4.5 have very good tactics, because if they didnt, they would still be in 3.5 or 4.0 league. These guys are playing against heavy hitting top spin 4.5's and win at least some of the time.

I agree that slicers like open court, but you're also forgetting that slicers like pace and spin. The higher you hit the ball... the more downward they can swing... the more downward they can swing, the lower they can keep the ball as it travels over the net. It's pretty hard to put away a ball that is lower than the height of the net, with slice on it, using a volley. That's the shots they're going to force you to make... and those are not easy shots. Sure, if a slicer is slicing the ball 3 ft. over the net and you're right on the net, yeah it's an easy put away, they would also not be 4.5's if they were doing that on a regular basis. When you come in against two slicers and 4 are up, they're just going to slice low and short, giving you a seemingly easy "put away" that isnt so easy.

Simple strategy is simple:

-When the slicer is returning, play super aggressive at net. It's unlikely they can hit a winner DTL with a slice as long as your partner knows they need to cover line. The slicer will start lobbing. You will start winning.
-When the slicer is serving, it's usually a weak serve. Just be careful when returning so you're not sending them high balls they can chop down at your feet as you come charging in. You want to make a slicer have to hit upwards, not downwards. Any time a slicer has to hit upwards means you get an easier shot.
-When all 4 people are at net, resist the temptation of trying to flick winners off sliced balls that are bouncing less than a 1.5 ft. or so. Just keep hitting "drop shots" until a ball can be intercepted, or it bounces a little to high at which you can make a proper stroke.

I've seen some pretty good slicer 4.5's. They never really advance to playoffs, but they can sure beat a lot of people along the way. Most of them are women. They're especially effective once they can get to the net since they are good volleyers, and being up at the net covers up their lack of winner potential from the baseline.

 

[LeeD]

I can get to most slicer's passing shots, it's just that peer level slicer's also have great lobs, and are willing to hit them repeatedly.

 

[trader14]

All this means is that you are playing at too low a level No matter how good we are, there are always those who are better...

agree and disagree. What i was referring to was a summer league with roughly 700 players throughout my region and the players are rated from 2.5 - 5.0. I play in 4.5 (this 4.5 does NOT correlate with usta ability) and there are roughly 110 players in 4.5. All that means is that in our grouping everyone knows how to hit and play tennis. Over the summer & fall I went 7-0 and 6-1. Last year I played up a level and was 4-3. I could go back up but the amount of people for me to play at that level is far fewer which means that my typical 10 minute drive for a match could be an hour so i stay at 4.5 for that reason. I play the sport because i love it and winning to me is not everything. As long as I can go out and play competitive tennis win or lose i honestly don't care. All I want is to be pushed by my opponent when i win and push my opponent when i lose.

 

[trader14]

Well, trader, I would never want to play you. Being a crafty chop shotter has its pros and cons. Pro is you'll beat a lot of other players with your slice and dice shots. Cons is that no one will ever invite you for social matches.

Most people hate playing pushers and chop shotters. The only place i see them is league and club tourney's. And I'm happy to be done with them when the match is over. Some may enjoy the challenge of trying to beat that style, but you aren't going to want to face it for your weekly social hit. Court time is too precious to waste running down drop shots and lobs.

Unfortunately my wife will continue to be flustered by the pushers and slicers of the world until she develops a better repertoire of shots. She has a flat FH and a flat BH and volleys with an Eastern grip. And nothing I say will change that seemingly. She can't hit a drop shot unless it accidently comes off her frame. She can lob but often prefers the passing shot. If she could drop shot, she'd be lethal as her passing shots are very difficult to read.

I would somewhat agree with you. I play doubles socially 2-3 days a week and give people fits because in doubles I play the ad side and when returning a serve am able to slice/chop low it to the servers backhand with the ball spinning away from them which to put it mildly gives them fits especially if you are serving a second serve because I am then crowding the service line which creates even more pressure. keep in mind we have been playing for the past few years together so i move back on the second serve when appropriate. Many people in double enjoy playing with me because i play very aggressive at the net and make for fewer mistakes than my peers. there are some that don't like playing with or against me. In singles after I won my usta match for our team playing #1 i played a set with their #2. He pretty much said that i am the type of player who people will go out of their way not to play against but further said that he would want to play me because he viewed my game as strategic, meaning that he was impressed with the precision and placement of my return shots. last month I played a guy who i played this past summer and the summer before in a different league i play in. we exchanged numbers and agreed to play again socially. when he showed up he said he didn't know he was texting me, he thought i was someone else and wouldn't have agreed to play me if he knew who he was texting with.

I have no loss of people to hit with either competitively or socially.

re your wife - one tool that dramatically altered and improved my game was getting a ball machine and practicing...drop shots, chops, forehands cross court and down the line and same with backhand

 

[trader14]

I'm not surprised: at most levels of tennis, the winner is the one who makes fewer errors. If you're consistent getting the ball in, this skill alone is enough to beat many opponents, especially the impatient ones and the ones who feel you're not playing "real tennis" who get frustrated with your ability to keep the ball in play.



Of the 3 traits you mentioned, only the last one is an indicator of skill. Form and grace do not necessarily translate into being a better player. If the people you're beating really were better than you...they'd win. The fact that you're winning means they don't know how to deal with your style of play [a common problem that gets less and less common the higher you go].
I don't view myself as a very good tennis player, people have commented that i am more of an athlete that happens to play tennis very well. I am the doubles player that makes fewer mistakes than most people you know and because i do cardio tennis a few days a week i am in great shape and have the ability to back my teammate up when needed. they know they can play closer to the sidelines because of the ground i can cover



He could remedy that by playing S&V: no point in lobbing the RoS because he's still too far away from the net.
I've never played anyone who can s&v me and win. that obviously has more to do with the level i am playing at but honestly in our doubles group i play with some of the best people in our town including the tennis pros at our club. Most of the better people for some reason don't s&v. my return of serve generally on the duece side can go down the line to a rh backhand consistently and on the ad side i can usually chip/slice the return to their service line at their backhand which is spinning away. most of the times if they get to it it is a pop of off their backhand as a return which i will generally put away with a overhead

Also, unless you're a spectacular lobber, I'm guessing he could have hit OHs on at least some of those 45 occasions but that his OH needs work?
I play enough where I know what my strengths and weaknesses are and I can honestly say that I have yet to play against anyone in any league that i play in that can lob as effectively as myself. I am only 5"10 and I have won against players who are stronger that i would bring into the net who are 6"4 and somehow able to get my shots over them to land really close to the baseline. An obvious weakness here is I have lost to players outdoors that have been stronger when i couldn't rely on my lob due to it being windy.



I think you've optimized your game for your strengths while minimizing your weaknesses. And you're mentally tough. That makes you a tough opponent.
I think that is a correct statement, i don't get into ruts and use each point as a learning tool. my highs aren't high and neither are my lows low. More people will win more games if they understand their game and optimize their strengths. I can make that big shot but it isn't as high a % as the shots i choose to take. Players going for "that big shot" are the ones i love playing against

One caveat: the ceiling of this style of play seems to be around 4.0. If you have designs on moving past that, you will have to develop weapons beyond the ones you have which will involve increased risk and therefore more errors.

I agree, i have plans to improve my game as I progress. One big hitter (a doctor) who i played recently commented that my chop/slice is not only effective but over time will have much less wear and tear on my arm and elbow so at the age of 53 i wonder how much better i can play play (been playing 3 years after 35 off)

 

[LeeD]

The chopper slicer game works well until the legs or the hips start to go, whenever that happens to the individual. Once the legs go, it take power, placement, and more power to compete at whatever level you were playing in.
My legs went in 2007, torn tendons, hairline fracture, still not recovered enough to run. But I can play at low 4.0 by power, placement, and net play. I have not run more than a block since then, as pain from inside the left ankle becomes acute and sharp.

 

[Dartagnan64]

re your wife - one tool that dramatically altered and improved my game was getting a ball machine and practicing...drop shots, chops, forehands cross court and down the line and same with backhand

Practicing! What a great idea! Can you call my wife and suggest that to her? If I mention practice I get the "why should I change for you?" face and burnt dinner for a couple nights.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's pretty hard to put away a ball that is lower than the height of the net, with slice on it, using a volley. That's the shots they're going to force you to make... and those are not easy shots.

Agree 100%. I rarely try to put away such a ball. The most common response is to volley it back deep. Such a player usually doesn't C&C so I'm confident he will be staying on the BL. I'm now in position to hopefully move in and do something offensive with the next volley.

it's a cat and mouse game, though: if he keeps slicing low and I'm not reading his lob well, I might end up further off the net than I'd like and not able to put away the volley. It's rare I run into a slicer who is that good. When I do, it's always because the rest of their game is also that good and they could beat me in several ways and they just chose this particular way to win.

Sure, if a slicer is slicing the ball 3 ft. over the net and you're right on the net, yeah it's an easy put away, they would also not be 4.5's if they were doing that on a regular basis. When you come in against two slicers and 4 are up, they're just going to slice low and short, giving you a seemingly easy "put away" that isnt so easy.

I've actually been working on that volley: not a put away but something that goes fairly short and makes my opponent hit while running forward. Slicing accurately becomes a lot more difficult then.

Simple strategy is simple:

-When the slicer is returning, play super aggressive at net. It's unlikely they can hit a winner DTL with a slice as long as your partner knows they need to cover line. The slicer will start lobbing. You will start winning.
-When the slicer is serving, it's usually a weak serve. Just be careful when returning so you're not sending them high balls they can chop down at your feet as you come charging in. You want to make a slicer have to hit upwards, not downwards. Any time a slicer has to hit upwards means you get an easier shot.
-When all 4 people are at net, resist the temptation of trying to flick winners off sliced balls that are bouncing less than a 1.5 ft. or so. Just keep hitting "drop shots" until a ball can be intercepted, or it bounces a little to high at which you can make a proper stroke.

I've seen some pretty good slicer 4.5's. They never really advance to playoffs, but they can sure beat a lot of people along the way. Most of them are women. They're especially effective once they can get to the net since they are good volleyers, and being up at the net covers up their lack of winner potential from the baseline.

Your approach makes sense.

 

[OrangePower]

agree and disagree. What i was referring to was a summer league with roughly 700 players throughout my region and the players are rated from 2.5 - 5.0. I play in 4.5 (this 4.5 does NOT correlate with usta ability) and there are roughly 110 players in 4.5. All that means is that in our grouping everyone knows how to hit and play tennis. Over the summer & fall I went 7-0 and 6-1. Last year I played up a level and was 4-3. I could go back up but the amount of people for me to play at that level is far fewer which means that my typical 10 minute drive for a match could be an hour so i stay at 4.5 for that reason. I play the sport because i love it and winning to me is not everything. As long as I can go out and play competitive tennis win or lose i honestly don't care. All I want is to be pushed by my opponent when i win and push my opponent when i lose.

Then it sounds like your goals are somewhat at odds with themselves. You want more competitive matches, which would mean playing in the 5.0 level of your league rather than the 4.5, but then on the other hand you're not willing to suffer the inconvenience of fewer players / longer drive times. Can't have everything... once you are outside the meat of the ability bell curve, finding competitive matches gets harder.

 

[OrangePower]

I agree, i have plans to improve my game as I progress. One big hitter (a doctor) who i played recently commented that my chop/slice is not only effective but over time will have much less wear and tear on my arm and elbow so at the age of 53 i wonder how much better i can play play (been playing 3 years after 35 off)

Interesting. I don't have any info to back this up, but I always assuming that chop strokes were more anatomically taxing than hitting with 'correct' technique, because they use mostly arm (i.e. less core and legs).

 

[r2473]

All this means is that you are playing at too low a level No matter how good we are, there are always those who are better...

There is a local guy that is a chopper. He also plays TONS of dropshots and lobs. He's very good at all of these shots and nobody likes to play him. BUT....he only wins against 4.0 and lower players. Whenever he plays 4.5, he loses EVERY match. He has trouble getting matches because he tortures 4.0 and below players and bores 4.5+ players to tears.

I agree, i have plans to improve my game as I progress.

What kinds of plans do you have to progress? I ask because

-Most players don't progress. I've seen guys playing the EXACT same game for years
-Your style doesn't allow much progression IMO. You can only chop against a certain level of player. It won't work against guys that can handle this style. And the chop technique isn't a firm foundation.

Do you plan on changing your entire swing style or do you plan on taking the "chop" where no man (I've seen) has gone before.

 

[Startzel]

agree and disagree. What i was referring to was a summer league with roughly 700 players throughout my region and the players are rated from 2.5 - 5.0. I play in 4.5 (this 4.5 does NOT correlate with usta ability) and there are roughly 110 players in 4.5. All that means is that in our grouping everyone knows how to hit and play tennis. Over the summer & fall I went 7-0 and 6-1. Last year I played up a level and was 4-3. I could go back up but the amount of people for me to play at that level is far fewer which means that my typical 10 minute drive for a match could be an hour so i stay at 4.5 for that reason. I play the sport because i love it and winning to me is not everything. As long as I can go out and play competitive tennis win or lose i honestly don't care. All I want is to be pushed by my opponent when i win and push my opponent when i lose.

If you love tennis why wouldn't you take the time to learn how to hit proper strokes? The only reason to be a slice player is because you value winning over playing tennis.

 

[Startzel]

Interesting. I don't have any info to back this up, but I always assuming that chop strokes were more anatomically taxing than hitting with 'correct' technique, because they use mostly arm (i.e. less core and legs).

It doesn't make sense because low to high will always be a more natural movement than high to low.

It's akin to why baseball pitchers need days of rest and softball pitchers can pitch every game. Also, he will end up hitting more shots than you or I would.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

If you love tennis why wouldn't you take the time to learn how to hit proper strokes? The only reason to be a slice player is because you value winning over playing tennis.

"proper" is relative.
while modern topspin is the key to winning upper levels, i've seen slicers and dicers do really well up 5.0 (typically an s&v'er at the 5.0 level, with groundies that look weak to peers of the same level - look at McEnroe or Edberg ground strokes - yuck!).
also topspin is very footwork intensive.. you can get away with lesser footwork as a slicer/dicer (especially if using opponents pace)...
most slicer/dicers i know have poor footwork, and if they hit topspin, would be much worse off (ie. getting tired too quickly, or shanking balls they can't get to, try to hit topspin).

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Interesting. I don't have any info to back this up, but I always assuming that chop strokes were more anatomically taxing than hitting with 'correct' technique, because they use mostly arm (i.e. less core and legs).

i think slicer/dicer rely on incoming pace... at least when i'm playing a slicer/dicer style, it waaaay less taxing than if i'm hitting topspin.. especially if i'm getting pace from my opponent.
when i'm playing as a slicer/dicer, my idea opponent is the 4.0 that hits hard but short (ie. lands on the service line), and not so hard that he can blow me off the court, and not so consistent that they can outmaneuver me,... then i'm free to slice/dice/dink/lob until they make a mistake.

 

[Startzel]

"proper" is relative.
while modern topspin is the key to winning upper levels, i've seen slicers and dicers do really well up 5.0 (typically an s&v'er at the 5.0 level, with groundies that look weak to peers of the same level - look at McEnroe or Edberg ground strokes - yuck!).
also topspin is very footwork intensive.. you can get away with lesser footwork as a slicer/dicer (especially if using opponents pace)...
most slicer/dicers i know have poor footwork, and if they hit topspin, would be much worse off (ie. getting tired too quickly, or shanking balls they can't get to, try to hit topspin).

I understand this. My point is how is that style of play fun?

It seems like it would only be fun if you're completely focused on the result of the match.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I understand this. My point is how is that style of play fun?

It seems like it would only be fun if you're completely focused on the result of the match.

when i play a slicer/dicer style of play (ie. against mid to low 4.0), i find great satisfaction seeing my opponent self destruct.
my goal is ultimately to exceed my opponents shot tolerance (via slice).
i also enjoy hitting a well placed, skidding slice off a hard topspin groundstroke.
having the touch (i don't) to drop and lob consistently is very satisfying as well.
in the end it's still about controlling the ball, and repeating an action with a high degree of skill/consistency... even if it's not the traditional topspin you see on tv

i do however get *more* satisfaction, hitting topspin... but if you told me i could never hit topspin again (ie. i got injured or something), i'd still continue to play a slicer/dicer/dinker/lobber game with great satisfaction (although i'd probably end up s&v more).

 

[Startzel]

when i play a slicer/dicer style of play (ie. against mid to low 4.0), i find great satisfaction seeing my opponent self destruct.

So what happens when he doesn't self destruct and ends up demolishing you?

 

[MathGeek]

If you love tennis why wouldn't you take the time to learn how to hit proper strokes? The only reason to be a slice player is because you value winning over playing tennis.

Not at all. I like playing tennis more than winning, but I don't have enough time to go back and learn all the "proper strokes" and even if I had the time, I think my joints will go before I could learn to use them all. That would be an awful lot of work to maybe improve from 3.5 to 4.0. Better just to get out there and enjoy the game I've got.

My son is learning all the "proper strokes" but after two years and several grand in lessons, I can still beat him, even though his mobility, stamina, and athleticism are much better than mine. I think he'll likely beat me with some regularity by the time we spend another $1000 on lessons, but someone (me) has to teach him to play the junk baller.
I win some and I lose some. My skills and mobility are in decline. I'm happy just to play, meet new people, and have a good time. I haven't had much negative feedback from opponents, and lots of folks are eager to be my doubles partners. Not because of a great skill set, but because I work hard on the court and chase down a lot of stuff most guys over 40 don't get to any more.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

So what happens when he doesn't self destruct and ends up demolishing you?

I switch to my "A" game (aggressive topspin groundies),... and hope I do better
But my point is, even if I didn't have a topspin game, i would enjoy playing tennis with a slicer/dicer game...

to me it's no different than a chopper playing a smasher/looper in table tennis

both viable (and satisfying) styles...

 

[Startzel]

Not at all. I like playing tennis more than winning, but I don't have enough time to go back and learn all the "proper strokes" and even if I had the time, I think my joints will go before I could learn to use them all. That would be an awful lot of work to maybe improve from 3.5 to 4.0. Better just to get out there and enjoy the game I've got.

My son is learning all the "proper strokes" but after two years and several grand in lessons, I can still beat him, even though his mobility, stamina, and athleticism are much better than mine. I think he'll likely beat me with some regularity by the time we spend another $1000 on lessons, but someone (me) has to teach him to play the junk baller.
I win some and I lose some. My skills and mobility are in decline. I'm happy just to play, meet new people, and have a good time. I haven't had much negative feedback from opponents, and lots of folks are eager to be my doubles partners. Not because of a great skill set, but because I work hard on the court and chase down a lot of stuff most guys over 40 don't get to any more.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You're saying your focus isn't about winning but then list reasons why you're better off winning as a pusher than losing with proper strokes.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You're saying your focus isn't about winning but then list reasons why you're better off winning as a pusher than losing with proper strokes.

to clarify, i think i would quit tennis if i had to resort to "push" bunt style strokes... (mainly because it's not effective, and it's really hard to "get better at it")
but playing as a topspinner or a slicer/dinker/lobber both require decent technique and skill to execute.

 

[Startzel]

I switch to my "A" game (aggressive topspin groundies),... and hope I do better

You're proving my point it really isn't a fun style of play when you're losing

You can go out and get blasted off the court 0,0 against better opponents and still feel accomplished on the good topsin groundies you hit that show improvement.

No one walks off the court bragging about that awesome slice shot their opponent flubbed when they lose 0,0.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

You're proving my point it really isn't a fun style of play when you're losing

You can go out and get blasted off the court 0,0 against better opponents and still feel accomplished on the good topsin groundies you hit that show improvement.

No one walks off the court bragging about that awesome slice shot their opponent flubbed when they lose 0,0.

I would also abandon a topspin game and switch to slicing/dink/lob if i thought it would work (ie. was more effective), and feel satisfied playing that way.
i don't feel good about winning/losing, i feel good about:
a) playing the right strategy for the opponent
b) playing that strategy to the best of my ability
I've definitely played folks that played *much* better was I was bashing balls to them, and have switched to:
* slice only
* s&v, c&c
* dink to draw them to net
* moonball/lobbing
* etc...
All those styles are equally satifsying, especially if my topspin game was not as effective.

yOu seem to be making the argument that hitting with topspin is the only way to play... while i do prefer to play that way, and feel it is my strongest game plan (usually), it's not the only way to play. no one style is "better" than others...

just look at santoro vs. safin

 

[Startzel]

I would also abandon a topspin game and switch to slicing/dink/lob if i thought it would work (ie. was more effective), and feel satisfied playing that way.
i don't feel good about winning/losing, i feel good about:
a) playing the right strategy for the opponent
b) playing that strategy to the best of my ability
I've definitely played folks that played *much* better was I was bashing balls to them, and have switched to:
* slice only
* s&v, c&c
* dink to draw them to net
* moonball/lobbing
* etc...
All those styles are equally satifsying, especially if my topspin game was not as effective.

yOu seem to be making the argument that hitting with topspin is the only way to play... while i do prefer to play that way, and feel it is my strongest game plan (usually), it's not the only way to play. no one style is "better" than others...

just look at santoro vs. safin

No you're missing an important distinction. You're responding to a part of my argument but ignoring how it relates to the overall discussion.

Hitting with topspin is the only way to play if you're just playing tennis for fun. There is no reason not to hit with proper strokes if the results don't matter.

Pushing only exists because the focus is on winning and not playing for fun.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

No you're missing an important distinction. You're responding to a part of my argument but ignoring how it relates to the overall discussion.

Hitting with topspin is the only way to play if you're just playing tennis for fun. There is no reason not to hit with proper strokes if the results don't matter.

Pushing only exists because the focus is on winning and not playing for fun.

ah, i see... i still don't agree (i do get satisfaction from hitting biting slicing balls that curve and skid), but i do get the *greatest* satisfaction for bashing topspin balls from the baseline,... and if someone can't because they don't want to learn, they are missing out on one of the greatest feelings in tennis

 

[Dartagnan64]

When I started tennis i hit a lot of pusher type strokes. Slices off the BH and FH side and occasional short flat all arm skidders. I'd play with my friends on crappy public court and it would be a war of attrition as no one could dictate play. just get the ball back with goofy spin and skids until someone made a mistake. I could have continued with that type of game getting better and better with slices and spin and drop shots and lobs.

But I decided with my wife to join a tennis club and thought I really should learn some proper technique even though I'm age 50. So I watched some videos, got a few lessons and worked a whole summer on a topspin FH and 2HBH. Then went to work on my serve. Now I can hit decent pace and good topspin so that I can blow most low level pushers off the court and can have some awesome matches with other topspin hitters. Being able to hit a hard shot that will actually land in the court is far more satisfying to me than playing slice a dice "hit it where they aint" tennis. Maybe I lose more than I would with a slice game, but I leave the court, win or lose. feeling very satisfied that I was competitive, gave the opponent all he could handle. If I was losing playing a pushing style I think I'd dread playing and never leave the court feeling at all good about myself.

Bottom line: You can learn to hit topspin groundstrokes even at a later age. Losing hitting solid groundstrokes is still more satisfying than losing hitting low pace junk.

And I know he gets no cred here at TW but Tom Avery's videos are very good introductions for older players learning to hit fundamentally sound groundstrokes. I learned more from his free videos than I learned from my $75/hr coach.

 

[trader14]

I don't see how this strategy is successful in doubles. When you add two players on court it takes away a slicers biggest target, open space.

in doubles i play the ad side and many times my return is for a winner or a easy put away by the net man as my return of serve to a righty is hit with backspin going away from their bh most of the times landing halfway between the doubles sideline. Again, my chop/slice while can be a winner is meant to set up a shot for either myself or my partner to put away because at my level most of the people have trouble driving the shot and end up hitting it up

 

[trader14]

There is a local guy that is a chopper. He also plays TONS of dropshots and lobs. He's very good at all of these shots and nobody likes to play him. BUT....he only wins against 4.0 and lower players. Whenever he plays 4.5, he loses EVERY match. He has trouble getting matches because he tortures 4.0 and below players and bores 4.5+ players to tears.

What kinds of plans do you have to progress? I ask because

-Most players don't progress. I've seen guys playing the EXACT same game for years
-Your style doesn't allow much progression IMO. You can only chop against a certain level of player. It won't work against guys that can handle this style. And the chop technique isn't a firm foundation.

Do you plan on changing your entire swing style or do you plan on taking the "chop" where no man (I've seen) has gone before.

I started playing just a few years back and went 4-3 in our local 4.0 league. the next year I adjusted my game and went from someone who simply hit the ball to playing what i would call a more strategic game. I would guess during a match 20% of my fh are hit with topspin with the balance being drop shots to my opponents fh or backhand as well as chops/slices. A big part of my game that has improved is my serve, not all that fast but it stays low and has a lot of cut and spin. I probably went from getting 30% of my first serves in to close to 65-70% today. My second year summer i improved from 4-3 to 7-0 in our 4.0 grouping and was the second highest rated player (rating is based on how dominant your sets were) out of roughly 100 players ( i didn't lose a set and won most of my sets losing 2 games or fewer). In the fall they had me skip 4.5 and moved me to 4.75 where i went 4-3. I requested to move down to 4.5 because i didn't like the sometimes close to 1 hour commute for a match. this past summer and fall I went 7-0 and 6-1 at 4.5. What I enjoy is tennis, making good decisions, focusing on good placement of the ball and playing a solid net/overhead game. I make far fewer mistakes than people who i feel are better players than myself and knowing that at a minimum I am able to compete in singles and doubles with most anyone that i have ever met including our local tennis pros gives me a great deal of satisfaction because I know where my game was just a couple years ago. I plan on using my tactics to play and win for as long as necessary and once I find them more than occasionally not successful I will hone my topspin fh and my backhand. Something that differentiates me from most people that i play with and against is my ability to anticipate. I can't explain it, maybe it's my opponents eyes, stance, racquet but somehow even though I am not fast I get to most everything. someone will have to make a really good shot to get it past me. I enjoy winning, i enjoy tennis, i enjoy being pushed, i enjoy being forced to make good shots, i enjoy seeing my opponent struggle, I enjoy watching my opponent never get into a groove. I enjoy controlling the tennis match knowing that i am winning because i am making good shots and not because my opponent is simply making too many unforced errors.
I don't speak for all us slicers/choppers but i have received numerous direct messages from fellow slicers applauding my post. I am just posting so folks can get an idea of what might go through the minds of some of us slicers/choppers. If i had to rate myself I would say in singles I am a average 4.0 player usta (just a guess) and in doubles above average 4.0

 

[trader14]

When I started tennis i hit a lot of pusher type strokes. Slices off the BH and FH side and occasional short flat all arm skidders. I'd play with my friends on crappy public court and it would be a war of attrition as no one could dictate play. just get the ball back with goofy spin and skids until someone made a mistake. I could have continued with that type of game getting better and better with slices and spin and drop shots and lobs.

what you describe does not accurately describe any game i have ever played in - i use my chop to dictate the point and am always looking to see if i can move into the net after making a offensive shot. My chop/slices have been described at time like a smash shot not a little dink although there are times and places for those shots as well. I am talking about shots with pace, backspin clearing the net by a small margin that will not go above your knee and many times will stay lower

 

[willeric]

There's a lot of advantages to the choper/slicer shot. If you don't understand that you'll lose.

Pros:
1. Don't need to use great footwork - this is huge advantage
2. Keeps the ball low, hard for opponent to attack
3. Lots of different possible shots: dropshots, deep skidders, lobs
4. Can play this style on all parts of the court, deep, no man's land and net

 

[Startzel]

I started playing just a few years back and went 4-3 in our local 4.0 league. the next year I adjusted my game and went from someone who simply hit the ball to playing what i would call a more strategic game. I would guess during a match 20% of my fh are hit with topspin with the balance being drop shots to my opponents fh or backhand as well as chops/slices. A big part of my game that has improved is my serve, not all that fast but it stays low and has a lot of cut and spin. I probably went from getting 30% of my first serves in to close to 65-70% today. My second year summer i improved from 4-3 to 7-0 in our 4.0 grouping and was the second highest rated player (rating is based on how dominant your sets were) out of roughly 100 players ( i didn't lose a set and won most of my sets losing 2 games or fewer). In the fall they had me skip 4.5 and moved me to 4.75 where i went 4-3. I requested to move down to 4.5 because i didn't like the sometimes close to 1 hour commute for a match. this past summer and fall I went 7-0 and 6-1 at 4.5. What I enjoy is tennis, making good decisions, focusing on good placement of the ball and playing a solid net/overhead game. I make far fewer mistakes than people who i feel are better players than myself and knowing that at a minimum I am able to compete in singles and doubles with most anyone that i have ever met including our local tennis pros gives me a great deal of satisfaction because I know where my game was just a couple years ago. I plan on using my tactics to play and win for as long as necessary and once I find them more than occasionally not successful I will hone my topspin fh and my backhand. Something that differentiates me from most people that i play with and against is my ability to anticipate. I can't explain it, maybe it's my opponents eyes, stance, racquet but somehow even though I am not fast I get to most everything. someone will have to make a really good shot to get it past me. I enjoy winning, i enjoy tennis, i enjoy being pushed, i enjoy being forced to make good shots, i enjoy seeing my opponent struggle, I enjoy watching my opponent never get into a groove. I enjoy controlling the tennis match knowing that i am winning because i am making good shots and not because my opponent is simply making too many unforced errors.
I don't speak for all us slicers/choppers but i have received numerous direct messages from fellow slicers applauding my post. I am just posting so folks can get an idea of what might go through the minds of some of us slicers/choppers. If i had to rate myself I would say in singles I am a average 4.0 player usta (just a guess) and in doubles above average 4.0

How would you be a 4.0 in usta league play if you're still playing in a beginner level of a local non usta league play?

That doesn't make sense. No one starts out a 4.0 usta player when they first pick up a racquet.

 

[r2473]

How would you be a 4.0 in usta league play if you're still playing in a beginner level of a local non usta league play?

That doesn't make sense. No one starts out a 4.0 usta player when they first pick up a racquet.

Somewhere in one of his "wall of words" posts he says his 4.0 is just a local way to rank the players in his group, not USTA 4.0.

If i had to rate myself I would say in singles I am a average 4.0 player usta (just a guess) and in doubles above average 4.0

I'd say you are 4.0 and probably better than average. As I said, your game style will beat most 4.0's but it doesn't work (generally) against 4.5's and up. And, it's hard to transition from your style to beat 4.5's.

Just my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Somewhere in one of his "wall of words" posts he says his 4.0 is just a local way to rank the players in his group, not USTA 4.0....

i was thinking the same thing...
a few years ago, i was in a "local 5.0 league"... i can assure you we were a bunch of 4.5's getting our ego's stroked (we all had usta 4.5C ratings)

 

[BlueB]

I played a bizarre match today, with a solid player who can play strong topspin of both wings, but is a master chopper/slicer too and would mix it up at every opportunity.
He throws me out of my game soon much that I first started spraying what should have been winners, tgen loost confidence in my shots and often just pushed the ball too long or got into mind games with him... I had to rally from down 1:4, got to serve for set at 5:4 and choked, then lost the tiebreaker
In the 2nd set I pulled my left calf at the very first serve and quickly found myself at 0:2... I carried on limping right through the match, with footwork greatly impaired. Funny enough I won 6:3.
What did I change? Less mind games, more focus on hitting my shots decent, slightly less pace, yet not pushy, with directional control. Mixed in few short balls too, seemed to bother him too.
Oh, and I gave up on htting too great of 2nd serve, just made sure I got it in with little bit of top.

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