Being noble lead to defeat

dkshifty

Rookie
Played a playoff match this weekend. First round of our Combo. I'll preface this by saying our opponents played a near perfect game and hats off to them.

I believe this occurred somewhere in the second set. We lost a nail-biter of a first set 4-6 with a crap load of ads and break points that we couldn't convert. I'm pretty sure we were 0/15 in break points.

The second set, more of the same. Plenty of break points but we could not convert a single one. These guys were human backboards and had an answer for every ball. BUT, we started crashing the net and forcing a couple errors.

>>I believe it was 3-3, with our opponent Ad-Out in the second set. Opponent send a second serve to my partner. I call out, my partner calls out. Then my partner mutters softly, after we make our calls...."eh...might have been in." Everybody stops. I say "your point." The opponent is in disbelief. We end up losing that game for them to hold serve. They eventually win the second set 6-3 and the match.

Both opponents come up to me and said they were surprised that I overruled my partner (and myself I guess). I simply said if we have any inkling of a disagreement on the call, we should forfeit the point and that I've seen too many arguments on stuff like this. They shared that in playoffs especially, no one in their right mind would do that, and praised us being stand up guys.

I apologized to my partner for overruling during that crucial point (we were pressing them pretty hard at the net, and that break point was probably the biggest moment of the set and the entire match). I just explained to him that its just one call. The opponents played beyond their level and deserved to win versus us possibly winning, but would have been based on something funky and I didn't want to win like that.

We lose the deciding 3rd line and are knocked out of the playoffs. Not our time I suppose!



Anyone else had this happen during a crucial moment in a competitive match? Would love to hear your stories.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Wasn’t it your partner who overruled you when he told you that it might have been in? Once he said that he is not 100% sure it is out and thought it might have been in, both of you are just following normal rules and etiquette to concede the point. I agree that many players might have kept quiet, but I applaud your partner for saying what he thought.
 

Chalkdust

Professional
What you and you partner did was what everyone should do... if there is any doubt, the ball should be called in.
Though I would agree that unfortunately not everyone does it, especially in close competitive matches.

Play league for long enough, and you come across every type of opponent - those that are really fair and always call lines generously, those that are generally generous but then make tighter calls on big points, those that consistently call the lines tight, and those that make blatantly bad calls especially on big points.
 

dkshifty

Rookie
Wasn’t it your partner who overruled you when he told you that it might have been in? Once he said that he is not 100% sure it is out and thought it might have been in, both of you are just following normal rules and etiquette to concede the point. I agree that many players might have kept quiet, but I applaud your partner for saying what he thought.

***I forgot to add that after he shared that it "might have been in" he added "it was out right? you saw out too?" Very important bit of information***
 

dkshifty

Rookie
If it’s any consolation the match rarely turns on a single point and up until that point it sounds like you were barely holding on

saving a break point probably wouldn’t have changed the result of a match where you were trounced in straights

That's exactly my point. That day, we were simply outclassed. Even with a plan b, c and d, just were not rattled for more than a few points.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
Wasn’t it your partner who overruled you when he told you that it might have been in? Once he said that he is not 100% sure it is out and thought it might have been in, both of you are just following normal rules and etiquette to concede the point. I agree that many players might have kept quiet, but I applaud your partner for saying what he thought.
Actually, I don't think so. If you're receiving serve then it's a lot easier for your partner to make a long call. When you're receiving at the baseline there are a ton of serves you can't tell are long.
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
This case may be clear cut, but what about when you clearly see that your partner made a bad call? I had overruled such calls in the past, but nowadays I keep quiet for 2 reasons: the partner comes across as a cheat, and my eyesight is not all that great either.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Actually, I don't think so. If you're receiving serve then it's a lot easier for your partner to make a long call. When you're receiving at the baseline there are a ton of serves you can't tell are long.
My point is not about who saw it right - no one knows. If one player on a doubles team says that he thought the ball was not 100% out, then the rule and etiquette is to give the point to the other team. His partner should not be arguing with him that his eyes are better or his perspective is better even if both are true.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
My point is not about who saw it right - no one knows. If one player on a doubles team says that he thought the ball was not 100% out, then the rule and etiquette is to give the point to the other team. His partner should not be arguing with him that his eyes are better or his perspective is better even if both are true.
Wrong again. In doubles there are many times a partner is not 100% sure the ball was out. If you're at the net and the ball is hit to your partner at the baseline you shouldn't even be looking back at the ball. If I'm not 100% sure a ball is in/out I don't make a line call if my partner is in a better position to do so.
 

dkshifty

Rookie
how was being noble leading to your defeat though if it had nothing to do with the tiebreaker

Well, although I felt there was a small chance we could have broke in that second set, losing that game all but sealed the deal. But like I said, we were 0/15 in break points. IF we break there, it would be us serving up 4-3 in a good position to take it to a 3rd set super tie. Also not a guarantee we win in the 3rd. I guess what I'm trying to convey was that we were already on the highway to defeat, and that game was the last exit.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Wrong again. In doubles there are many times a partner is not 100% sure the ball was out. If you're at the net and the ball is hit to your partner at the baseline you shouldn't even be looking back at the ball. If I'm not 100% sure a ball is in/out I don't make a line call if my partner is in a better position to do so.
If you don’t look or you are unclear about any part of the ball being in, then of course you let your partner make the call. This is true especially if you are further away from the ball than your partner. Same with your partner if he says that he did not see the ball land clearly, he should let you make the call. On those calls I am in agreement with you.

But, if your partner says that he thinks he saw any part of the ball in or on the line and calls it in, then your team should concede the point as that is the rule. You might have the opinion that your partner is wrong and think that you saw it better, but that should not change the call.

It has happened to me many times where I was 100% sure from what I saw that a ball was just out and my partner called it in. In some cases, I was in a better position to see the ball than my partner. But, in my opinion my team has to concede the point if my partner and I disagree on the call - that is exactly how the rule is written also.
 

loosegroove

Hall of Fame
You shouldn’t have conceded the point. 1)The returner’s partner, not the returner, has a much better vantage point for calling serves long (down the T or out wide are a different story). 2)Your partner wasn’t sure either way, essentially he just knew it was close, while you made a definitive call on a ball you clearly saw out.

Does anyone object when the returner plays a serve, but the partner calls it out because they see it long? No, that’s not an issue.
 
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dkshifty

Rookie
You shouldn’t have conceded the point. 1)The returner’s partner, not the returner, has a much better vantage point for calling serves long (down the T or out wide are a different story). 2)Your partner wasn’t sure either way, essentially he just knew it was close, while you made a definitive call on a ball you clearly saw out.

I totally agree that I had the best look, no doubt. But as @socallefty said, I feel like if there was even an inkling of a disagreement (which was clear when my partner said "might") I felt it was just best to give the point up, even though it was a super crucial point.

I did witness a fight break out in a 4.5 game due to this. They met at the net and one of the opponents ended up screaming many expletives and squaring up with our guys. It ended up being a benches clearing incident to separate them. The incident wasn't the reason why I made the call, but for sure it was on the back of my mind.
 

loosegroove

Hall of Fame
@dkshifty read what I just added to my previous post, because I think that best puts things into perspective.

Don’t get me wrong, I get where you’re coming from and understand why you conceded the point. But objectively I think the point was yours.
 
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jimmy8

G.O.A.T.
I just played a boy who hit a winner where the ball was traveling very fast and it landed just past the baseline, it was blurry because of the speed of the ball, i hesitated a second or two after the ball landed and then said in. Then the boy exclaimed - that was way in. i think it might have been out or barely touched the line, like 1% of the ball hit the line. This boy was something else - he slammed the ball at me, questioned my out call repeatedly when the ball was well out, tied his shoes about 5 times and took about 2 minutes each time, and each shoe tying was after he made a bad shot and was upset, he threw his racket many times, he bounced his racket on the ground in frustration many times.

People, be on the better side of these exchanges. @dkshifty is on the right side.
 

Fed Kennedy

Legend
I totally agree that I had the best look, no doubt. But as @socallefty said, I feel like if there was even an inkling of a disagreement (which was clear when my partner said "might") I felt it was just best to give the point up, even though it was a super crucial point.

I did witness a fight break out in a 4.5 game due to this. They met at the net and one of the opponents ended up screaming many expletives and squaring up with our guys. It ended up being a benches clearing incident to separate them. The incident wasn't the reason why I made the call, but for sure it was on the back of my mind.
Where was this? Just so I can make a note to never move there
 

Jst21121

Rookie
I just played a boy who hit a winner where the ball was traveling very fast and it landed just past the baseline, it was blurry because of the speed of the ball, i hesitated a second or two after the ball landed and then said in. Then the boy exclaimed - that was way in. i think it might have been out or barely touched the line, like 1% of the ball hit the line. This boy was something else - he slammed the ball at me, questioned my out call repeatedly when the ball was well out, tied his shoes about 5 times and took about 2 minutes each time, and each shoe tying was after he made a bad shot and was upset, he threw his racket many times, he bounced his racket on the ground in frustration many times.

People, be on the better side of these exchanges. @dkshifty is on the right side.

wow if I played this match, I would of just walked off after one game. That is just complete waste of time
 

LuckyR

Legend
@dkshifty read what I just added to my previous post, because I think that best puts things into perspective.

Don’t get me wrong, I get where you’re coming from and understand why you conceded the point. But objectively I think the point was yours.
Depends what you mean by "objectively". If you mean that if Hawkeye was available that it was probably out, I agree with you. If you mean that the call should have been any different from what actually happened, the rules say you're wrong, so you're wrong. If you're saying the returner should have left the call to the OP and said nothing, I don't disagree with you.
 

dkshifty

Rookie
I just played a boy who hit a winner where the ball was traveling very fast and it landed just past the baseline, it was blurry because of the speed of the ball, i hesitated a second or two after the ball landed and then said in. Then the boy exclaimed - that was way in. i think it might have been out or barely touched the line, like 1% of the ball hit the line. This boy was something else - he slammed the ball at me, questioned my out call repeatedly when the ball was well out, tied his shoes about 5 times and took about 2 minutes each time, and each shoe tying was after he made a bad shot and was upset, he threw his racket many times, he bounced his racket on the ground in frustration many times.

People, be on the better side of these exchanges. @dkshifty is on the right side.

OH F that man, thats exactly how you're NOT supposed to spend your weekend. Zero class. Kudos for you being able to keep your cool. I wouldn't be able to be so nice.
 

kylebarendrick

Professional
If I called a ball out and then my partner whispered to me that it might have been in, my next step would depend on how sure I was about my call. If after thinking about it I decide that I wasn't as sure of my call as I should have been, I will concede the point. If on the other hand I was very sure of it, I say so to my partner. If that satisfies them then my out call stands. If they reply that they really do think it was in then I'll concede the point.
 

mpnv1990

Semi-Pro
What you and you partner did was what everyone should do... if there is any doubt, the ball should be called in.
Though I would agree that unfortunately not everyone does it, especially in close competitive matches.

Play league for long enough, and you come across every type of opponent - those that are really fair and always call lines generously, those that are generally generous but then make tighter calls on big points, those that consistently call the lines tight, and those that make blatantly bad calls especially on big points.
There are also some who make blatantly bad calls regardless of the situation!
 
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Fed Kennedy

Legend
East Bay Norcal
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PK6

Semi-Pro
Being nice will doom you! It’s happened to me many times where opponents have made bad calls/use rules to win matches instead of trying to win on court. your not there to make friends/have happy hour-Win at all costs!!!
 
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