Being the 4.0 in 7.5 combo doubles

[Cindysphinx]

I was playing 7.5 doubles today. I am 4.0. Partner is 3.5. We are practicing for Districts.

When I was serving, my partner started off at net shading toward the alley. I asked her instead to start in the middle of the service box.

I had reasons for making this request. Deuce returner had already hit one return up the middle that went unplayed, so I wanted to make her go up the alley or send the ball crosscourt to me. Also, I planned to serve up the middle to returner's BH, which was another reason not to leave the middle open.

My partner was not having it. She wanted to start where she felt most comfortable, closer to the alley. She refused to start in the middle of the box -- even when I said before tossing, "A little more to your right, Carol."

What do you think? Should I let the alley camping go? Is there another way to address it?

On the one hand, the lower-rated player in combo ought to be entitled to play however she is most comfortable, and the higher-rated player needs to adjust. On the other hand, the net player ought to position however the server wants unless that isn't working (e.g. server wants net player tight to net but net player is getting balls crushed at her).

The other problem was when my partner was serving.

We were struggling to hold her serve because the opponents were returning crosscourt, following it to net, and pinning partner in the back corner. I decided I needed to be more active at net to put a stop to this.

Because I know she doesn't like signals, I would go back and tell my partner what I planned. I might say, "OK, I am going on your first serve and staying on your second. So on your first serve, you have responsibility for the DTL ball and I have the crosscourt no matter what."

We did this, and it started paying dividends because the returners now had to guess and I got some poaches. Trouble was, my partner didn't like it. She said I should just go when I want to go and she will see what I do and adjust. She says it is too confusing to plan all this stuff.

I am debating what to do about this. We did much better when I planned my poaches, which made my fakes much more believable. I would have felt more flexible on the point if partner could hold her service games without help from me, but that wasn't the case.

Any ideas about how to address these partner issues? Please don't say "Dump her." It is almost a certainty that we will have to partner at Districts, so I really would like to get this stuff sorted.

 

[josofo]

ya a lot of people at that 3.5 level stand in random spots.

i usually just let it ago. if she is standing in the alley hey that is more balls for the 4.0 (virtually a professional) to handle.


but seriously for the people who stand in the alley or stand in to far back (like at the service line) you are really making things harder.


if you stand in the middle of the box about 3 feet from net. you are going to win so many point by just hitting decent angle volleys at everything that comes at you. if you go middle the guy on that side is going to have trouble with a lot of them. if you go sideline most will be winners.

now occasionally in a match vs good 4.0s that can go down the line. you just got to be ready for it. and hopefully you can cover the alley enough times.

i am not much of a poacher though.

 

[OrangePower]

The net positioning issue I would pursue. You're weakening yourselves too much as a team by her standing so close to the alley. Try again to explain the thinking behind net positioning, but not during a match. Maybe when you are watching others play or something. Then suggest you play a practice set against teammates and have her try standing more in the middle of the box. Tell her it's ok if she gets beat down the alley and that there's no pressure; it's just a practice to see how it goes. Hopefully by doing this she will start getting a comfort level with it and then you can apply it for matches.

On the other hand I would drop the planned poaches. They are not for everyone, and not everyone is going to get comfortable with them. Trying to get her to buy in to this is probably going to do more harm than good. You should still be aggressive with your poaches even if they are not planned, and then dial back if you are in fact losing too many points DTL.

 

[dcdoorknob]

If you ask her to do something, and she flat out refuses, then I'd just drop it. I mean if you think you might be teamates on into future years/seasons, then maybe find a way to gently encourage her to be more open to trying new things (for her) on the court, but beyond that, I'd let it go.

With the planned poaches, I'd go ahead and point out clearly to her what you did to us: that the planned poaches are just flat out working more effectively for you as a team as far as winning points goes. If that is still unconvincing to her, then again I'd just drop it and do the best you can with whatever limitations she has chosen to place on herself and you two as a team.

 

[Torres]

Dump her and find someone else. You're trying to turn lead into gold and I know how much you dislike saying anything that could be construed as criticism....

When I was serving, my partner started off at net shading toward the alley. I asked her instead to start in the middle of the service box.

I had reasons for making this request. Deuce returner had already hit one return up the middle that went unplayed, so I wanted to make her go up the alley or send the ball crosscourt to me. Also, I planned to serve up the middle to returner's BH, which was another reason not to leave the middle open.

Something's gone wrong with your play there. If you're on the deuce side, and you're serving down the middle, assuming that you have half a decent serve, your partner should be starting in the middle of her service box, because you want the ball to be in front of her and the % would favor a FH volley for her or cross court return for you, which again, favors you in terms percentages. If you hit a good T serve, its practically impossible for your opponent to go down the line.

The only reason why your partner might lean towards the alley slightly is if you're hitting a sliced serve out wide but it really depends on how good your sliced serve is, and how far you can pull your opponent off court.

On the one hand, the lower-rated player in combo ought to be entitled to play however she is most comfortable, and the higher-rated player needs to adjust. On the other hand, the net player ought to position however the server wants unless that isn't working (e.g. server wants net player tight to net but net player is getting balls crushed at her).

Depends on whether or not your goal is to win. Doubles is all about having effective patterns of play that create a drip, drip, drip of points in your favor. If you're not bothered about winning, then do whatever you want. If your aim is to win, then both of you need to play the game in the way it should be played. The problem with a 3.5 who doesn't understand how the game is played is that it's an exercise in frustration. I'd rather have a slightly weaker 3.5 who understands effective patterns of play and percentages than a 3.5 with slightly better strokes who's a law unto themselves.

The other problem was when my partner was serving.

We were struggling to hold her serve because the opponents were returning crosscourt, following it to net, and pinning partner in the back corner. I decided I needed to be more active at net to put a stop to this.

There's something wrong with her serve, or she isn't serving effectively if the opponents are immediately given the initiative. Where and how is she serving? If all she does is plop the ball over the net onto your opponents' FHs, there's going to be nothing that you can do. On the ad side, she will have created an inside out pattern for the returner, and on the deuce side, she invites the returner to get into a cross court rally with her (which disadvantages your partner if she has a weaker ground game) or go down the line to keep you to honest.

At 3.5-4.0 level, I've never seen a woman who can return a good kick serve, so that might be something that your partner might want to try. Then again, I've never seen a 3.5-4.0 woman who can hit a good kick serve. It may be more realistic for your partner to hit the returner's BH on the ad side, which should at the very least create a neutral rally for your partner or allow her to inside out, or if the returner tries to hit you, you should be able to volley into the space between your opponents. On the deuce side, I'd say that there's more % in your partner serving down the middle. At least it keeps the ball in front of you as the net player or allows the serve to go to what is usually the returner's weaker side, and should put any return onto your partner's FH. At the end of the day everything depends on the quality of your partner's serve, your opponents, and how you can best match up your opponent's weaknesses with your partner's strength (or lesser weaknesses). Personally, I think its all a bit of waste of time trying to play seriously with a 3.5 particularly one how behaves in the way that you describe but you did ask....

 

[spot]

Is it possible to set up a pickup match with teammates? This sounds like the kind of thing that if you can just work on it in practice then it would be far more effective to use in a match.

 

[Centryx]

umm Cindy being the 4.0 why not just put your serve way wide so the opponent has to go at your 3.5 partner at the alley sounds like an easy knockdown volley for her if she is already in position.

 

[Cindysphinx]

umm Cindy being the 4.0 why not just put your serve way wide so the opponent has to go at your 3.5 partner at the alley sounds like an easy knockdown volley for her if she is already in position.

'Cause that's bad doubles?

I think what I will do is have a heart-to-heart talk with her. I will say that we need to take it up a notch and work on our teamwork. I need to help her hold, and she needs to help me hold. We need as many tools in the kit as possible, so we cannot say, "Oh, planned poaching is too hard, so let's not bother."

I mean, it's combo. Combo is an exercise in exploiting the weaker player. To win, you have to find ways to get the 4.0 player involved. If she can't/won't work with me on that, then I should just bench us both and play a stronger pair at doubles instead.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Is it possible to set up a pickup match with teammates? This sounds like the kind of thing that if you can just work on it in practice then it would be far more effective to use in a match.

This *was* a practice match with teammates for the express purpose of preparing for Districts.

 

[Centryx]

if you can't put your partner in a position to excel aren't you the bad partner/player? if your partner is indeed the weaker player and you wouldn't have a shot if they played horribly it would be worth it to put them in a position to prosper...

 

[Torres]

I think what I will do is have a heart-to-heart talk with her.

Just send her a link to this thread.

 

[Maui19]

CS, I am not being trying to be critical with this comment, but you seem to be hung up on the so-called "correct" way to play. Sometimes unorthodox methods trump conventional wisdom. Perhaps you should look at ways to use your partners strengths/tendencies to your favor rather than trying to fix her playing style so you can play "correct" doubles. I would think you could be successful serving wide when your partner is at the net. She would naturally cover the alley, and you would come in and cover the middle. That would leave your opponents with a lower-percentage cross-court return over the high part of the net. I understand the benefits of serving to someone's BH or down the T, but with some player combinations this isn't a great option.

As for when she is serving, I would just have her stand more toward the middle, tell her to watch for you poaching, and have her cover DTL when she sees you go. She probably won't get to some DTL shots, but I think you will win more points than you lose doing this because it will create doubt in the returner.

It's really hard to fix people's games if they don't want to go along. Good luck at districts.

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

How long have you been playing together? It takes a while for partners to get comfortable enough with each other for the better player to know how to communicate properly.
You need to know why she prefers to camp down the sideline. Explain to her that you prefer to serve down the T, and for that it's best if she's around the middle of the service box.

Don't be arrogant and don't act like she should know these things by herself. Try to get her to experience the benefits of the move, in your practice session.

In my experience, it's often about a lack of confidence in their own net game. She may feel scared to make a bad volley and instead decides to take herself out of play. Help her feel more confident with her volleys.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I'm wondering how the answers would change, if at all, if this were mixed.

Like, say I was the 4.0 dude in mixed, and my 4.0 female partner was the weaker player. She is having trouble holding. I tell her I'm going to do some planned poaches, we start winning points, and then she tells me to stop because planned poaches are too confusing.

Would the advice to the 4.0 dude be, "Well, I guess you can't do planned poaches, then." Or would people say any player who is struggling to hold should welcome help from the partner?

Or say the dude in mixed posted here that his female partner flatly refused to stand where he wanted her to stand when he was serving. Would people say he should just live with it?

I ask the question because I know the answer. The guy who posts those questions is told, "Your partner is an idiot. Dump her, if she doesn't know how to be part of a team and won't accept your help."

Anyway, I think the best thing in my situation is have a Come To Jesus moment with her. I will explain during the next practice what I want her to do when I am serving, and what I can do to help her when she is serving.

We will simply have to practice planned poaches (and Aussie, and two back) until she is comfortable. That is more likely to succeed than expecting her in five weeks to hit shots she cannot hit.

 

[OrangePower]

I'm wondering how the answers would change, if at all, if this were mixed.

Like, say I was the 4.0 dude in mixed, and my 4.0 female partner was the weaker player. She is having trouble holding. I tell her I'm going to do some planned poaches, we start winning points, and then she tells me to stop because planned poaches are too confusing.

Would the advice to the 4.0 dude be, "Well, I guess you can't do planned poaches, then." Or would people say any player who is struggling to hold should welcome help from the partner?

Or say the dude in mixed posted here that his female partner flatly refused to stand where he wanted her to stand when he was serving. Would people say he should just live with it?

I ask the question because I know the answer. The guy who posts those questions is told, "Your partner is an idiot. Dump her, if she doesn't know how to be part of a team and won't accept your help."

Anyway, I think the best thing in my situation is have a Come To Jesus moment with her. I will explain during the next practice what I want her to do when I am serving, and what I can do to help her when she is serving.

We will simply have to practice planned poaches (and Aussie, and two back) until she is comfortable. That is more likely to succeed than expecting her in five weeks to hit shots she cannot hit.

I would answer in exactly the same way as my previous response to you.

I would insist that she stand more towards the middle of the box. This of course assuming she can make simple volleys that end up going to her. If she gets beaten down the line, that's ok.

I would not insist on planned poaches. I would just poach aggressively based on my reads of the return.

You can still provide your partner with a lot of help in holding her serve without planned poaches. Be active and unpredictable at the net and it will put a lot more pressure on the opponents.

 

[Torres]

I'm wondering how the answers would change, if at all, if this were mixed.

The issue is nothing do with gender. Its about trying to get both players to play as effectively as they can. But you can't be an effective as a pair if one player's a stick in the mud. As for Aussie formation, aggressive poaching, and the rest of it, I think you're overcomplicating things too much when the real issue seems to be your partner's skills shortfall.

 

[dcdoorknob]

I've played mixed. I've asked my partners about certain possibilities like Aussie or signaled poaches, or even, you know, say playing the net at all . If they flat out say that they aren't comfortable with that idea, I let it go and make the best of it.

So, yes, my opinion would be the same if you were talking about mixed.

 

[Cindysphinx]

The issue is nothing do with gender. Its about trying to get both players to play as effectively as they can. But you can't be an effective as a pair if one player's a stick in the mud. As for Aussie formation, aggressive poaching, and the rest of it, I think you're overcomplicating things too much when the real issue seems to be your partner's skills shortfall.

Well, yes. Exactly.

The problem is she didn't have the skill to hold if we play Plain Vanilla doubles. When that happens, then we have to try something different. The things we try need to be things anyone can execute without learning new skills. Aussie is a great example. Planned poaching is another. Playing two back is yet another.

Is that needlessly complicated? Well, continuing to lose is simpler, I'll grant you that.

Orangepower and DCDoorknob, I hear you. If they refuse, then they refuse. That's pretty much what happened, and that's the beginning and end of it. (Well, sort of. I can keep right on telling her what I plan to do on each of her serves, and she can do whatever she wants with that information, I suppose).

The reason I think I will press the matter is, well . . . resisting a planned poach is a weird concept.

If I tell you I am going on your first serve no matter what and I have absolute responsibility for the crosscourt, that information should be immensely helpful. You know exactly what I am going to do and what you have to do.

Compare that to an opportunistic poach. The server cannot know what the net player is going to do. The net player can begin a poach and bail, leaving the server faked out. The net player can leave too soon, leaving the server to scramble the DTL shot she couldn't anticipate.

Planned poaches are very hard for the net player. They should be very easy for the server.

So what possible excuse is there for a server (who can't hold) to resist the idea of planned poaches?

 

[OrangePower]

The reason I think I will press the matter is, well . . . resisting a planned poach is a weird concept.

Planned poaches are very hard for the net player. They should be very easy for the server.

I don't agree. Planned poaches are not easy for the server and in fact can be quite limiting:

1. They limit the choice of serve that the server can go for. If I am serving and my partner is committed to crossing no matter what, there are certain serve placements I will avoid.

2. They limit the ability of the server to come to the net. I will typically serve and volley. But I rarely can do that if my partner is on a planned poach (I'm not fast enough to cover a DTL return if I am coming forward diagonally).

And of course planned poaches can be very distracting and confusing to a server not used to them.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

If you served and the returner hit one up the middle that went unplayed, that's your fault for standing too wide to serve. Either that or you puffed a serve down the middle that got killed. I'd love to see some video of you playing because I'm having a hard time trying to envision you playing 4.0 and being strong enough to dictate play or call the shots like you always do. If you feel that 7.5 isn't putting you with a strong enough partner, then you're not a strong enough 4.0 to play 7.5 combo because we all know the really good combo teams are a strong 3.5 and med to strong 4.0 when playing 7.5. Perhaps you should be playing 8.0 with a really strong 4.0 partner (one closer to 4.5) and be happier, but I don't think you could hold your own at that level unless your serve is stronger than what I constantly read about in all your posts.

 

[Cindysphinx]

I don't agree. Planned poaches are not easy for the server and in fact can be quite limiting:

1. They limit the choice of serve that the server can go for. If I am serving and my partner is committed to crossing no matter what, there are certain serve placements I will avoid.

No, I disagree.

I don't care where she serves. I would prefer a serve up the middle. But I can deal with any placement or speed. I mean, the point is for me to get involved. So I don't make requests on placement and I take what I get.

2. They limit the ability of the server to come to the net. I will typically serve and volley. But I rarely can do that if my partner is on a planned poach (I'm not fast enough to cover a DTL return if I am coming forward diagonally).

Again, we are talking about a 3.5. She can't come to the net. That is why she is getting pinned in the back corner if the service return gets by me.

And of course planned poaches can be very distracting and confusing to a server not used to them.

Maybe. Which is why we need to do it in *practice.*

I guess I am having some deep-seated frustration with my peers. **Practice is for practice.** It is not to see if you can beat your teammates by playing the way you always play. If you are not going to experiment with new things, you will never be able to adjust when you are losing in a real match.

I have had situations when I suggest we do planned poaches in practice, it goes horribly, and that's OK. We learn something. We learn planned poaches do not work for us. Me, I think that is a worthwhile thing to know.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

Planned poaches don't work because your serve is weak. You MUST dictate the ease of the poach with your serve. The only other way a planned poach is going to work is if the returner always hits the same return shot off any of your serves and the net person sees this pattern and just takes off and kills the next return that got put in the same place. That's a planned poach on the net person's dictation of the point.

If you really want planned poaches to work, you HAVE TO make your serves cause weak returns from the receiver. If you don't, you can plan your poach all you want but the receiver can just hammer it past both of you each time. They'll have time cross court because your partner isn't quick enough and they'll have time dtl because you're not quick enough. Your only option to gain some time and doubt if your serve isn't quite good enough is to do play I formation and poach that way on the returns. At least then the returner doesn't have a whole lot of clear course for an outright winner each time.

 

[jaybear1909]

even when I said before tossing, "A little more to your right, Carol."

I can just imagine one of your service games: "Hey, Carol, can you scoot two steps to your right? Great! Now one half-step backwards? Oh... sorry that was a 3/4 step. Can you take a 1/4 step forward? Actually, can you just come back here for a moment? I don't think you understand why I'm telling you this. Did you just roll your eyes at me Carol? That's it, I'm so going to post about this later!"

I think your problem is your approach. You're 4.0, she's 3.5. It's not Serena Williams and her autistic cousin. Talk to her before points. Maybe tell her where you're planning to serve, and what/where your opponent likes to hit. If you noticed that Janet likes to hit DTL off the second serve, maybe hint that to Carol after a 15-0. Have some faith in her. Chances are she's more likely to lose serve after you call her out in the middle of the match because she's more focused on how she's going to slip some laxative into your Chili next Sunday.

Maybe reading your OP just leaves a bad taste in my mouth because I know a woman on my GF's team that does the exact same thing. It's fun to watch from the outside, but her teammates hate it.

As much fun as I have reading your posts, I can't imagine your teammates enjoying your company on the tennis courts too much. It's not always "Stinky Susan's" and "Jealous Jennette's" fault.

Go have fun and improve your game. If that means you have to hit a lower volley that Carol should have had, so be it.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Planned poaches don't work because your serve is weak. You MUST dictate the ease of the poach with your serve. The only other way a planned poach is going to work is if the returner always hits the same return shot off any of your serves and the net person sees this pattern and just takes off and kills the next return that got put in the same place. That's a planned poach on the net person's dictation of the point.

If you really want planned poaches to work, you HAVE TO make your serves cause weak returns from the receiver. If you don't, you can plan your poach all you want but the receiver can just hammer it past both of you each time. They'll have time cross court because your partner isn't quick enough and they'll have time dtl because you're not quick enough. Your only option to gain some time and doubt if your serve isn't quite good enough is to do play I formation and poach that way on the returns. At least then the returner doesn't have a whole lot of clear course for an outright winner each time.

This is not true at all.

First, you understand that we are talking about me doing planned poaching off of my partner's serve, not the other way around, right?

We are talking about 7.5 ladies doubles. Nobody is hammering anything, especially slowish serves.

If I as the the net player am active, the returner must change her preferred return (usually cross court). She may take her eye off the ball. She may yank the return wide. She may not have a reliable DTL return at all. She may resort to lobbing. All of that is a win for s, because we have disrupted their winning pattern.

You don't say your level, so perhaps you play a higher level where returners punish weak serves. That is not how it works at my level.

Now, it is possible for me to just take off and poach without having told my partner. I do not think this works very well. As Orangepower says, it creates a problem if the server is coming in. More importantly, however, it leaves the server guessing as much as the opponent. It also means any DTL shot will be a winner because the server didn't know I was poaching.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

This is not true at all.

First, you understand that we are talking about me doing planned poaching off of my partner's serve, not the other way around, right?

We are talking about 7.5 ladies doubles. Nobody is hammering anything, especially slowish serves.

If I as the the net player am active, the returner must change her preferred return (usually cross court). She may take her eye off the ball. She may yank the return wide. She may not have a reliable DTL return at all. She may resort to lobbing. All of that is a win for s, because we have disrupted their winning pattern.

You don't say your level, so perhaps you play a higher level where returners punish weak serves. That is not how it works at my level.

Now, it is possible for me to just take off and poach without having told my partner. I do not think this works very well. As Orangepower says, it creates a problem if the server is coming in. More importantly, however, it leaves the server guessing as much as the opponent. It also means any DTL shot will be a winner because the server didn't know I was poaching.

The server calls the shots, not the net person. You cannot poach unless the server gives you the right serve to work with. If you're poaching for the sake of poaching, the server will get confused and even if it's planned and they don't give you a serve that causes a return that you should poach on, the poach is no good and won't work.

I play 4.0/4.5 and know exactly where you're coming from because I saw it when I used to played 3.5 and had weaker partners. I really enjoyed it more when I played 7.5 Combo as the 3.5 because I was the strong 3.5 on the team which could play as a 4.0 in terms of poaches, etc. I've always had a strong serve and I know how important it is to dictate play with it. As I said before, the net partner can plan on poaching all they want, but if they're not given a proper serve which then triggers a weak enough return to poach on, a planned poach needs to stop and not take place. You poach to cut the ball off and hit it, you don't poach for the sake of switching sides. If you can't make contact with that ball you probably shouldn't force your server to switch because of your poach. In reality, a bad poach which causes your server to have to cover the DTL could have easily been put away by you had you not left your spot. Also, you can't do a planned poach if your opponents play patterns doesn't dictate that you should. I hope all this makes sense to you, but I think you might be applying a lot of tennis concepts you want to try to situations that aren't opportune for it. Also, remember that 3.5 players, especially weak ones, won't be comfortable moving around on court too much. This is probably going to be your #1 reason why that 3.5 player is scrambling with uncomfortable situations.

 

[schmke]

I have to agree with Cindy on this one.

My experience in playing mixed and watching my wife play women's doubles is that most 3.5/4.0 women have a good cross-court return and just automatically hit it there. This is what they've done because they were taught it, and until they run into an opponent that takes it away, they have no reason to hit anywhere else.

So at a minimum, you need to test them early in the match to see if they can go down the line or if they get flustered with their stock return being put away for a winner by the poaching player. Even if they can go DTL with some consistency, an occasional poach introduces doubt in their mind and they may not return as well or become susceptible to a fake poach.

Or, if you see they have the cross court return grooved, save the poach for a big point as a surprise tactic.

In either case, being able to communicate with the partner serving is important. And just ignoring this part of the game and letting them return cross-court without giving it another thought is putting your team at a disadvantage.

 

[OrangePower]

Planned poaches are not easy for the server and in fact can be quite limiting:

1. They limit the choice of serve that the server can go for. If I am serving and my partner is committed to crossing no matter what, there are certain serve placements I will avoid.

No, I disagree.

I don't care where she serves. I would prefer a serve up the middle. But I can deal with any placement or speed. I mean, the point is for me to get involved. So I don't make requests on placement and I take what I get.

Try to see it from the server's perspective. Even though you (as the net player) can deal with any placement and speed for planned poaches, she as the server probably still feels pressure to make certain kinds of serves when she knows you are poaching. This despite you telling her otherwise. She might feel hesitant that she will hit you as you start to cross, she might feel that a wide serve makes it too easy for opponents to hit DTL where she can't cover quickly enough, etc. Point is she very likely feels extra pressure for whatever reason.

 

[sovertennis]

Overall, I agree with you on all counts Cindy, because I see this sort of situation on many weekends where I teach, ie 3.5 level players do not like to move or reposition themselves (thus they forever remain at the 3.5 level, even if their shotmaking improves beyond that). I believe that you're taking the correct approach with her; after all, you're the more highly rated player and you're trying, gently though sincerely I presume, to bring her up a level. She should, at least in practice matches, try to embrace and enact what you're suggesting. If, however, she remains intractable in her sedentary ways (and that is her prerogative, after all), then it's up to you to adapt, by changing your serving position to accommodate her position (ie too close to the alley), and, when she's serving, by being very active at the net. To that end, I'd suggest you forego the planned poaches and just poach/fake on your own depending on where her serve is and how the return is coming. Maybe you could take a "lead by example" approach on the matter and avoid all the consternation arising from telling her where you'd like her to stand/when to move, etc. Good luck.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Lots of good points here.

I think the issue that has fallen off the radar, however, is important.

That issue is: This is a server who cannot hold.

Yeah, the server is in charge. Yeah, poaches have to be good. Yeah, the net player should look to poach opportunistically rather than planned/signaled.

All of that goes out the window when that is not working.

It's weird. One reason I get frustrated in mixed is if I have a male net player who won't help me hold. I cannot hold in mixed without help. A lot of help. The male partners who step up and say, "OK, let's try something different. I will poach on your first serve no matter what" are a gift straight from heaven.

Why my female partners want to go down in flames playing Traditional Doubles rather than try something new is beyond me.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

If the server can't hold, then it's one of two issues.

1) The net person is not doing their job.
2) The weaker player/server in this case is getting killed on returns and your opposing team will hit all points to them since they are weaker.

You jumping around up front won't help them hold serve. I formation in my experience tends to help the server hold easier, especially if the net person is the stronger volleyer.

At state Combo 7.5, my 4.0 partner was actually having issues holding serve and we lost the first set. He was getting broken serving the second set too, so we changed to I formation to help him close points quickly. We immediately started holding his games and won the TB 10-1. I let him dictate which way I went unless I saw patterns from our opponents that I could anticipate.

The thing with poaching and net person close outs is you have to have a feel for it. Sometimes it comes and other times no matter how hard you try, it seems like a mountain you're claiming. The harder you try to help your partner hold, the more you can cause them to lose points cuz of a botched volley. Some servers lose confidence in their serve or game when this happens.

Keep close eyes on how many points you guys lose from her mistakes vs yours at the net and play safer if need be. If you're right handed I wouldn't poach on the ad points unless one comes easy to you to put away. If your poaches just get the ball back over the net and doesn't put the opponents on defense, you've basically sacrificed your position and your partner is not playing singles until you can regroup. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Cindysphinx]

What can I say? For a 4.0 woman, I am a pretty good poacher. I have a 1HBH volley and so can poach with my BH, even on a high ball. I remain amazed that so many people say "I can't poach with my BH, so don't expect me to hit any BH volleys at net." Ugh.

Actually, poaching with the BH is easier than many people think. There are a lot of weak returners who hide on the ad side. They cannot take their BH up the line reliably, and they struggle to get angle on it. That leaves them trying to lift the ball to get it over me, and that is difficult on their BH side also.

I remember the finals of national. Opposing ad court player had a 1HBH return. Even without planning poaches, I was able to pick off a bunch of her returns and get into her head.

Poaching rocks. If you can move, you can poach.

 

[tennis_ocd]

I'm wondering how the answers would change, if at all, if this were mixed.

Like, say I was the 4.0 dude in mixed, and my 4.0 female partner was the weaker player. She is having trouble holding. I tell her I'm going to do some planned poaches, we start winning points, and then she tells me to stop because planned poaches are too confusing.

Would the advice to the 4.0 dude be, "Well, I guess you can't do planned poaches, then." Or would people say any player who is struggling to hold should welcome help from the partner?

Or say the dude in mixed posted here that his female partner flatly refused to stand where he wanted her to stand when he was serving. Would people say he should just live with it?

I ask the question because I know the answer. The guy who posts those questions is told, "Your partner is an idiot. Dump her, if she doesn't know how to be part of a team and won't accept your help."

Anyway, I think the best thing in my situation is have a Come To Jesus moment with her. I will explain during the next practice what I want her to do when I am serving, and what I can do to help her when she is serving.

We will simply have to practice planned poaches (and Aussie, and two back) until she is comfortable. That is more likely to succeed than expecting her in five weeks to hit shots she cannot hit.

I guess I give you credit for pushing this. She simply doesn't appear to have the desire to be crafty and play team centered doubles; she is focused on her individual play. "Guard the alley!"

As a guy I play a yearly club mixed with a woman who will never go for your suggestions. The alley is guarded better than ft knox -- there simply won't be a winner down there .. ever. In a way good in that it initially forces returner to go cross court to the stronger player. We're not playing for money; let her do what she enjoys doing.

If really serious, get a pro to spend an hour explaining double stragegy. This will go over much better from an experienced third party.

Combo/mixed is about breaking the weaker player's serve. Somewhat expected; break back.

Agree that poaching has all types of benefits. If good at it, it plays havoc with the returner's head. Not surprising that a 3.5 does not see big picture. Wait until she returns against an active 4.0 net person.

 

[RetroSpin]

Cindy usually has a pretty good handle on things, but I would have a slightly different perspective on this.

First, if I'm serving in mixed or with a weaker partner, I don't want them trying to do too much and I sure don't want them spoiling volleys or getting in my way. Guard that alley and let me handle the rest.

Cindy's partner is getting pinned when opponents return and come to net on her, indicating at least two problems, one, a weak serve, and two, an inability to lob. I don't believe we weren told why partner didn't like planned poaches, a crucial omission. Is it because she can't cover DTL, or doesn't want the pressure on serve, etc? Or perhaps she is not impressed by Cindy's poach game? Anyway, she said poach when you want. What I would probably do is poach more when the opposing 3.5 is returning, since the odds of a forcing return are lower, and tell partner to lob over the other 3.5 if the 4.0 tries to come to net on a return.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Retrospin, it's weird with this partner.

I remember we partnered a lot at 3.5. Back then, I wanted us to learn to do signaled poaches in a practice match with me at net. I would signal, and I would hear nothing. I could not be sure she saw the signal. I went back and asked her to acknowledge the signal.

She refused. She said it would throw her off to see the signal and say, "OK." I was to signal and just trust that she saw it. That is one reason why I didn't propose signaling this time and instead just conferenced between points.

So it really is an Xtreme sensitivity to anything new or out of the ordinary when she is serving. And no, she cannot lob, and yes, she loves when I pick off balls at the net.

As for her net skills, she is tall and lanky and has good hands. If she just plants herself in the middle of the box she is difficult to pass. Which makes it doubly frustrating to see her cowering in the alley when she is so intimidating at net.

TennisOCD, I think you cracked the code.

What's really going on here is that she is a 3.5 and has only played up at 4.0 doubles about four times in her life. I think you are right that she doesn't fully grasp that 4.0 doubles requires teamwork. Everyone has basically the same shots, the teams who are experts at positioning and working together have the advantage.

I've spent most of 2013 working with one 4.0 partner and a pro, figuring out how to play together. We've gone from getting smoked to beating solid teams. The teamwork makes the difference.

Thanks for those observations. It really is a case of this 3.5 needing more belief in the benefit of working together to make something happen point by point. The only way that realization happens for anyone (including me!) is getting pinned in that back corner again and again and getting broken again and again.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

Cindy, do yourself a favor and play up if you genuinely think you can probably hold your own and would also like to play in an environment where you can do true team doubles, where you signal point construction and poaches, etc. Maybe an 8.5 Combo would be a better place for you to develop your tennis more. At that point, you would be the weaker player and it would not only help improve your game, but also not stress you out in terms of not being able to do the things you want to do. If you truly are a good player, even at 4.0, then you should have no issues improving if you play with stronger players. I think at this point, playing with the weaker ones may just be hurting your development or at least hindering your enjoyment factor since you do seem interesting in developing tactics of play that are much more 4.5-5.0 level rather than the lowly 3.5 level you are surrounded with.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Cindy, do yourself a favor and play up if you genuinely think you can probably hold your own and would also like to play in an environment where you can do true team doubles, where you signal point construction and poaches, etc. Maybe an 8.5 Combo would be a better place for you to develop your tennis more. At that point, you would be the weaker player and it would not only help improve your game, but also not stress you out in terms of not being able to do the things you want to do. If you truly are a good player, even at 4.0, then you should have no issues improving if you play with stronger players. I think at this point, playing with the weaker ones may just be hurting your development or at least hindering your enjoyment factor since you do seem interesting in developing tactics of play that are much more 4.5-5.0 level rather than the lowly 3.5 level you are surrounded with.

There is something to this, actually.

I have always been a proponent of 4.0s continuing to play 7.5 combo, even though many of my peers sneer at it. I think it helps you be more aggressive at net and it helps your technique against no-pace and wonky shots.

But as you say, the one thing that is missing is teamwork.

I do play 4.0 doubles, probably more than I play 7.5 combo. I have my small group of 4.0 partners, and we work hard on our teamwork. My 3.5 combo partners are for the most part much less interested in anything that smacks of teamwork. I have always chalked this up to limited volleying/transition skills, but maybe there is an attitude/outlook issue I hadn't fully appreciated until now.

So maybe I've gotten all I can get out of 7.5 combo. That would be a shame because it would represent the death of yet another playing opportunity.