Bernard Tomic has spoken: Declares Djokovic the BOAT and GOAT
- Thread starter Oceans II
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Clay lover
Legend
Correct conclusion, weird reasoning - one could also readily say when Nadal or Federer were playing well they chopped Djokovic as well. The scores for Federer weren't even accurate as I doubt Federer ever lost by that margin lol. And these "primes" can never be measured against each other in a meaningful way as they aren't even quantifiable .
While forms can vary, consistent winning can stand the test of time - that's why results should be the only objective metric. But of course even with this logic the same conclusion is reached - Djokovic is indeed the GOAT.
While forms can vary, consistent winning can stand the test of time - that's why results should be the only objective metric. But of course even with this logic the same conclusion is reached - Djokovic is indeed the GOAT.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Exactly. Correct conclusion but weird reasoning.
Became BOAT in 2016 and GOAT in 2021. Both times after winning Roland Garros.
Became BOAT in 2016 and GOAT in 2021. Both times after winning Roland Garros.
ghostofMecir
Legend
He actually rarely beat Federer easily and Federer beat Djokovic more convincingly more times than the other way around.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Federer confirmed 2nd best since he won 4 games to Ned’s 3
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
If Bernie has spoken then it is finally settled. TTW threads will now be reduced by 60% at least.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
He also technically never beat Nadal 6-2, 6-1, but he did beat him 6-1, 6-2 in Doha 2016 so one can let that count. The Fed score is completely made up I guess.
Tennis Devolution
Professional
Wrong, novak djokovic beat roger federer more times than vice versa which is what actually matters.He actually rarely beat Federer easily and Federer beat Djokovic more convincingly more times than the other way around.
Ray Mercer
Hall of Fame
He’s never beaten Federer that decisively. What a crock of ****.
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The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Djok's most "convincing" win v Federer: Dubai 2011, 6-3 6-3
There is not one match where Federer lost to him with fewer games than that.
In Bo5 it is a tie between RG12 and AO16, both times Federer won 12 games.
Djok's most convincing win v Nadal: Doha 2016, 6-1 6-2
In Bo5 AO19: 6-3 6-2 6-3 for a total of 8 games.
Should note, that with 110 matches v Fedal, these are the very rare occasions where he won this convincingly...
Also, Djok has never bageled Fedal...
Federer bageled him once and Nadal did it twice.
There is not one match where Federer lost to him with fewer games than that.
In Bo5 it is a tie between RG12 and AO16, both times Federer won 12 games.
Djok's most convincing win v Nadal: Doha 2016, 6-1 6-2
In Bo5 AO19: 6-3 6-2 6-3 for a total of 8 games.
Should note, that with 110 matches v Fedal, these are the very rare occasions where he won this convincingly...
Also, Djok has never bageled Fedal...
Federer bageled him once and Nadal did it twice.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
it is not so simple and completely true. nole was the GOAT even without slam record and fed is probable still greater than rafa despite slam and masters count and h2h.
but there are also:
8>(6)>5=5
428>310>(286>270>268)>209
7>6>0
(2G)>G+B>G>S
40>36>28
72>59>54
(110)>103>99>92
3>2>1
2>0>0
16950>15495>15390
h2h
W%
ect...
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
actually, the more important match the bigger advantage to nole:
| no1e - fed | h2h | h2h in finals |
|---|---|---|
| all | 27+WO - 23 , 54% | 13+WO - 6 , 68% |
| GS | 11 - 6 , 65% | 4 - 1 , 80% |
| WTF | 3+WO - 3 , 50% | 2+WO - 0 , 100% |
| masters | 11 - 9 , 55% | 5 - 3 , 63% |
| MM | 2 - 5 , 29% | 2 - 2 , 50% |
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RS
Bionic Poster
I don't know what year this is but guessing 2012?
Daniel Andrade
Hall of Fame
To me what actually shows his true level was that he is the only player to have won 4 consecutive sets against Nadal at his peak ON CLAY
Martin J
Semi-Pro
@Username_ please fix this mess, thx
I strongly disagree.
Djokovic's GOAT credentials come down to just how many slams he's won + the Olympic Gold. Everything else is down to a quirk of the sport (maybe a marketing strategy) which spent a decade pretending Djokovic and Federer were true contemporaries. Federer, during Wimbledon 2019, was the same age Djokovic is today.
Djokovic had an enormous age related advantage over Federer. It can't be overstated. Federer was literally in his age 30 season when Djokovic had his 2011 year, 3 years out from a back injury (and - clearly - his athletic prime), and 2 years into fielding retirement rumours, having already basically completed his career goals, and massively surpassed statistical precedents. Federer was a man who built his reputation with the swagger of somebody who knew that if he played well he was the best player in the world. He didn't need to lose sleep over the instances when he was losing, because he was winning tournamnets at such an unprecedented rate (at that time).
All in all, Djokovic had a combination of mental, physical, and psychological (head to head) advantages over Federer, whilst simultaneously having all the precedents - including that of longevity - to match / exceed (The Bannister Effect) him.
If you compared a 30-38 Lebron James, Messi, Ronaldo etc to a 24-30 version, none of them measure up statistically. Lebron hasn't won a league MVP since his 20s, for example.
Equally, if a 30-38 year old Djokovic had to compete against a 24-30 year old Djokovic he wouldn't have fared particularly well. Take away the precedents to chase, & I doubt he does it, either given that Djokovic, at the same age Federer was in 2011, and in a somewhat similar situation, had the world number 1 spot wrested off him by Murray, then proceeded to struggle for 1+ seasons with motivation. It's a miracle for the man that another ATG didn't emerge in that 2017-2019 window, or else he likely wouldn't have broken 17 slams. Let alone 24.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Tl;dr
Djokovic has everything fed has PLUS he is great on clay. Among the best ever.
That clay part sets him apart easily from fed. Simple
That's a flagrant abuse of the tl;dr there, man.
He lost to a post-peak Federer on clay during his best season.
Federer would have multiple RGs if not for a peak Nadal.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Yes he lost to fed at 30. Post peak or not I don't think so. Fed was incredible. Still won by hair.
On top of that like a coward runs with tail between his legs , the fed fan runs from his own losses as well. Next year in 2012. Fed got smoked.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Fed wins multiple rg if not Nadal. That is just excuse for failures. And if that is even taken in context , Djokovic wins way more than Fed.
At the end of the day Nadal existed and you can't wish away a player.
At the end of the day Nadal existed and you can't wish away a player.
Federer was fielding retirement questions in 2009, such was the consensus that he'd lost a step post back injury. Go and watch him play in 2006, compare the movement. There are old threads on this very site discussing his wane.
A 24/25 year old Djokovic would smoke a 30/31 year old Djokovic on clay, too. This is my point: I think tennis is in a spot where it dearly wishes Djokovic and Federer (and, to a degree, Nadal) were true contemporaries, but they're not. You have the story of an ageing ATG fighting time against a terminator of a young ATG + Rafa + Murray. And Federer was still getting his licks in (2012 Wimbledon, for example).
Djokovic is an ATG in any sport, but even the fact that he didn't have a true ATG emerge in 2016/17 to make him look a little past it has helped his legacy enormously. Heck, Murray dethroned him all the same.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Which is precisely my point.
Had a 24 year old Djokovic level player emerged, Djokovic wouldn't have been.
But anyway.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nope
There were 3 of them and they didn't allow anyone becoming even 2 time champ.
You have just left excuses. I agree there are nuances and add some context but just SOME
Every single criteria is in noles favor. He had more top players to go through to win his titles as well. So you can save the age stuff.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I know Djokovic dominates all the all surface records, plus the only guy to complete the full resume of big titles and hence his claim to being the greatest of all time is strongest of them all, but in the eyes of many that slam record is what is king and the one that sits above all others.
The fact he got it and shut the door on his big 3 brothers is what has cemented his legacy at the top of the game, and ultimately setting the standard for the generations to reach, it his numbers they will target.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
On top of that 3 cgs and 7 ATP titles.
Among his main rivals , he bridged the gap of their weaknesses on respective surfaces.
It's like any record that will be beaten of big 3 , fed or Rafa will fall first before nole. So simple.
RaulRamirez
Legend
Well, if Bernie says it...
Frankly, I don't care that much about the opinions of broadcasters and players on such things. I'll go to them for other aspects where they have a lot more expertise than I do. I also don't care much much for H2H, and Bernie's statement may be a little suspect there also.
But yes, Novak's overall record is the best. (And unless people define it succinctly, what is really the difference between GOAT and BOAT?)
Frankly, I don't care that much about the opinions of broadcasters and players on such things. I'll go to them for other aspects where they have a lot more expertise than I do. I also don't care much much for H2H, and Bernie's statement may be a little suspect there also.
But yes, Novak's overall record is the best. (And unless people define it succinctly, what is really the difference between GOAT and BOAT?)
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
in fact nole is greater on every metrick if we compare him with 2 other members of big4 era. nole is more accomplishment and greater player than fed and muzza cumulative!
roysid
Legend
I know where this came from. Before 2016 AO, Fed said that Tomic didnt fulfil his potential.
Tomic said Feds game is nowhere near to Novak.
Then Fed diffused the situation by stating he was not aware that Tomic has broken into top 20.
Fed and Tomic met in AO and Fed won easily.
However Fed meat Djokovic in semis the and the first two sets were 6-1 6-2 to djokovic.
Thats what Tomic is referring to
UnderArmServeOP
Rookie
it doesn't but ok
inflation_era
Professional
He actually rarely beat Federer easily and Federer beat Djokovic more convincingly more times than the other way around.
Federer was just better. If Fed is not peak but he's on, and Djokovic is absolute peak, then it will be a tough match barely won in a deciding set. If it's vice versa and Djokovic is on, Fed destroys him.
Tennis Devolution
Professional
Wrong, keep completely argumentlessly whining and crying me a river.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
All legitimate but with the usual plot hole, where it is totally ignored that Djokovic spent his prime challenging a Nadal still in his prime (at least until 2013/2014), a Murray in his prime, a Wawrinka in his prime etc., and also a Federer who despite being in his post prime was always a much more difficult player than all the opponents that the same Federer prime faced between 2003 and 2007 outside of clay.
Federer raged in the weakest era of the Open era, and this makes up for anything that happened afterwards.
Federer fans as usual want to build a distorted narrative making people believe that Federer was the unluckiest of the big three in terms of timing, when in reality it is the exact opposite.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Yes. I could write this myself but it has been said many times but fed fans won't admit.
Just taking looks at number of top 5 / 10 players beaten is enough.
Fed won 11/16 when he was facing barely anyone in top 5 while Djokovic in 2012 one year faced 9 top 5.
In the end everything averaged out for fed and Nole so only numbers remain. No weak strong stuff. In fact when we add context the fed numbers are WORSE not better as analyzed by Jeff sackman of tennis abstract.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Federer had 12 top 5 players played in his first 12 grand slams wins
Djokovic had 13 top 5 players played in his last 12 grand slams wins
They are about the same.
In fact without pandemic Djokovic would match fed in 5 in a row at 2 slams in ao and wimby just like uso and wimby for fed
And 236 weeks consecutive as well without pandemic between 2020 ao to 2024 rg
Fed and Nole are about the same in every aspect so we nolefams should not ridicule fed at all. He was the old goat. .
Only area where nole is much better than Fed is his clay record. 20 titles - 3 slams , 11 masters , Olympics
And he played Nadal far more than Fed and beat Nadal as well.
So only clay is difference maker between fed and Nole.
Djokovic had 13 top 5 players played in his last 12 grand slams wins
They are about the same.
In fact without pandemic Djokovic would match fed in 5 in a row at 2 slams in ao and wimby just like uso and wimby for fed
And 236 weeks consecutive as well without pandemic between 2020 ao to 2024 rg
Fed and Nole are about the same in every aspect so we nolefams should not ridicule fed at all. He was the old goat. .
Only area where nole is much better than Fed is his clay record. 20 titles - 3 slams , 11 masters , Olympics
And he played Nadal far more than Fed and beat Nadal as well.
So only clay is difference maker between fed and Nole.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Of all the opinions I don’t care about, Tomic’s opinion is the one I don’t care about the most…after Kryngios.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Fed even has a blue clay win. He has 10 title on red clay, 1 slam and 5 masters.
Djokovic at his worst surface is more than twice better than Fed. Their record is 4-4 but Djokovic retired from 1 Match back in 2008 and had heavy tape on his left arm in 2014.
Djokovic at his worst surface is more than twice better than Fed. Their record is 4-4 but Djokovic retired from 1 Match back in 2008 and had heavy tape on his left arm in 2014.
That’s because LeBron had to compete with actual ATGs and top 10 players at their peakin his 30s.
unlike Djokovic who got to win YE #1 against Ruud, Medvedev, Tsitsipas, and prepubescent Sincaraz
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