nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Pure agenda driven thread.
At 20 fed had 0 slams. Nole had barely done better. But Alcaraz can win AO and become 3 slam champ in his 20. While Nole will be only at 1.
Besides a few distinct performances, Carlos has been mostly average this year.
- Thread starter InsideOut900
- Start date
At 20 fed had 0 slams. Nole had barely done better. But Alcaraz can win AO and become 3 slam champ in his 20. While Nole will be only at 1.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
You did, and it’s beyond disrespectful to leave him out. They’re called the Big 3 for a reason. It’s funny how you guys love to quote the pros when it suits your agenda, but when they go against it you conveniently leave out their opinion. Joker has called RAFA his greatest rival. Besides, even 05 RAF‘a season was more impressive than Tiny Carl’s this year. And he wasn’t even in his peak then.
Carlos has like 2 real fans here. Everyone else is a Big-3 stan who praise him or discard of him based on agenda.
Even if you ignore the fact that he has been NINETEEN/TWENTY this year, these are still magnificent numbers for anyone.
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
So winning Wimbledon is just average and so is semis of USO 
For someone with the discipline to stay level-headed, and consciously iron out weaknesses, and for someone who's demonstrably improved every year, at 20, he hasn't peaked. No.
Unless he suffers a catastrophic injury, and becomes a drug addict, I don't see him reaching his true peak before 2026.
Mazz Retic
Hall of Fame
Fair, I didn't see all his matches so will accept he was rusty. Is that not credit to him that he made the final and probably should have won it?
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I agree. The big 3 are unmatched and they went on super long unbeaten runs too. This is something the rest of the players including even alcaraz so far struggle to replicate.
CoolCoolCool
Hall of Fame
He's still young, consistency will come with time.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
It’s just ridiculous that people are even comparing him to the peak versions of the Big 3 and then get upset that people justifiably push back. Apparently you aren’t a fan of the kid if you don’t bow down and worship him like he’s surpassed them all. The fact that people are saying he had a 2012 Big 3/4 season is also leaving out the fact that they were all simultaneously playing at a high level and stopping each other from dominating. There hasn’t been anything close to that level of competition since Tiny Carl broke out.
Breakpointerer
Legend
Sure, but when we are talking purely about his level, it is a bit of a sticking point that he struggled so much throughout.
It's understandable that there was some post-Wimbledon hangover though. The problem is that it's lasted up till this point.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
I thought he made something like 13 out of 15 quarterfinals this year apart from winning Wimbledon, won 63 matches at a 87% winning %, won Indian Wells, Madrid and three other titles including on clay, grass and hard surfaces plus made the semis of the FO and USO while skipping the AO. His losses in big tournaments were mostly to Djokovic (FO, Cinci), Sinner (Miami, Beijing) and Medvedev (USO) - only 3 of his 4 other losses could be called bad losses (Dimitrov, Paul, Marozsan) as he lost to Norrie while injured. Is this not a good enough year for a 20-year old?
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tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
This is like Djokovic's 2008 season.
The only difference is that Djokovic had peak/prime Federer and Nadal and a whole tour to compete against while Alcaraz has a 40-year old Djokovic and a bunch of nobodies.
The only difference is that Djokovic had peak/prime Federer and Nadal and a whole tour to compete against while Alcaraz has a 40-year old Djokovic and a bunch of nobodies.
tennis24x7
Hall of Fame
Age
Who are these people exactly? I don't see any on TTW. Most posts about Raz are negative. Atrociously toxic.
There's a strong fan on reddit. Another one on Twitter. But on TTW? Calling him better than peak Big 3? Without obvious Big 3 agenda?
TheFifthSet
Legend
Why are you so quick to pathologize? Clearly @InsideOut900 means average relative to ATG’s/prospective YE#1’s. The bar is higher for Carlos because the comparisons are loftier. Even his biggest detractors wouldn’t deny that he’s a prodigious talent.
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MayorGorman
Rookie
Just some fun stats to show how good hes been. Career numbers for the Big Three thru their age 20 Season
Alcaraz
Career Win% 78.9 (142/180)
Grand Slams 2
M1000: 4
Total Titles 12
Nadal
Career Win % 78.2 (183/234)
Grand Slams 2
M1000: 6
Total Titles 17
Djoker
Career Win % 70.3 (121/172)
Grand Slams 0
M1000: 2
Total Titles 7
Fed
Career Win% 58.5 (100/171)
Grand Slams 0
M1000: 0
Total Titles 1
Alcaraz
Career Win% 78.9 (142/180)
Grand Slams 2
M1000: 4
Total Titles 12
Nadal
Career Win % 78.2 (183/234)
Grand Slams 2
M1000: 6
Total Titles 17
Djoker
Career Win % 70.3 (121/172)
Grand Slams 0
M1000: 2
Total Titles 7
Fed
Career Win% 58.5 (100/171)
Grand Slams 0
M1000: 0
Total Titles 1
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
I mean didn’t you just say in this very thread that he had a 2012 Big 3 season? As for me, I try to give him a fair and balanced assessment.
Hard to say how he’d fare against late career Rafa on clay, but I don’t think his level of play in the tournaments he won this year is below contention in any field. He may not be favoured in those fields but he’d be a real pain in the ass for anyone to play.
InsideOut900
Legend
There are multiple layers of comparison here.
Average relative to Carlos's own A game, average to mediocre compared to a potential YE#1, having 8.5k points up until now is lowkey weak compared to what a true great would get
And finally average to weak compared to how incredibly weak the tour is. Besides beating Novak in Wimbledon, which I called a landmark win, he has failed against every tough challenge this year. The toughest opponents he beat this year are probably Sinner in IW and Struff in Madrid, but lost to Novak in RG and Cincy, Sinner in Miami and China and Med in USO. Was unimpressive in all of them.
For anyone who has enough braincells to separate level of play from results, this is a weak year compared to a true #1.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I totally agree. I think people are getting carried away with the fact he’s won 2 slams at age 20. It’s impressive but we have to take in to account that the competition is poor and this is a very weak era.
He won the us open with no Djokovic and Nadal was physically not fit and also had his personal issues/distractions with his baby on the way. He just got by in that tournament despite this with many 5 setters against lesser players.
Wimbledon was impressive but still he beat a declined 36 year old Djokovic who also isn’t great in the wind and served awful to be fair. A great win but nothing close to beating the big 3 in their primes/peaks. Still that was impressive to win Wimbledon that quick and end novaks dominance.
We have to remember that the big 3 went on insane winning runs better than Tiny Karl with much stronger competition, their best versions and even against other great players like Murray, wawrinka and other strong players like tsonga, berdych, Delpo, Ferrer, etc.
The big 3 had seasons why they hardly lost many matches and racked up tournament after tournament. Alcaraz is good but even this year he’s had some poor tournaments with early exits and some good ones. He still has time but right now he just isn’t on the same wavelength the big 3 at their best were. They were producing insane numbers, insane matches and consistency in the strongest era probably ever.
Yeah this season for alcaraz isn’t close to 2012. That was an awesome year with sheer quality in nearly every tournament. I think people forget how high the tennis level was then that ever tournament was pretty exciting and the level of tennis was something else. The big 4 killed each other that year, with tennis out of this world lol
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Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
It would be if the competition was stronger. Had he done this in the big 3 prime era it would have very impressive.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Careful, you’re going to be labeled an Alcaraz hater with that not at all controversial post
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
The lynch mob are coming for me! RIPCareful, you’re going to be labeled an Alcaraz hater with that not at all controversial post
To be fair I’m not afraid to admit this a weak era. Novak is feasting on it too but it’s to his credit he’s kept fit, still plays at a decent high level to take advantage. It’s just logical to admit the level of tennis isn’t what it was 10 years or so ago. You can only beat what’s there and not the players fault. Still we can still compare back and notice differences in levels of play, etc.
So what you're saying is that he was totally average, apart from the times he was absolutely awesome?
The first guy winning stuff at 20 for ever, starts being challenged when his game is studied by the tour so "only" reaches semis for a while? Loses to "only" Medvedev, "only" Dimitrov's top level?
*Please* give him a break- he is still in the ball park with Nadal for results at his age, and is already an atg prodigy. His top priority right now should be looking after his body, maintaining/improving his level, not winning every tournament because he won a couple of slams so isn't allowed to lose now or something.
The first guy winning stuff at 20 for ever, starts being challenged when his game is studied by the tour so "only" reaches semis for a while? Loses to "only" Medvedev, "only" Dimitrov's top level?
*Please* give him a break- he is still in the ball park with Nadal for results at his age, and is already an atg prodigy. His top priority right now should be looking after his body, maintaining/improving his level, not winning every tournament because he won a couple of slams so isn't allowed to lose now or something.
A few masters and a slam, yeah? He's had a prime Big-3/ATG season at 20. For his age he's absolutely elite.
Let me know if 2012 had any of the Big 3 operating at their absolute peak (ala 2006, 2010, 2011). None did and the point was that he had a year akin to a Djokovic 2013. A Federer 2011/2015 but with a slam. Call it a weak era, call him tiny or a useless mug like pretty much every poster calls him here unironically, build an untrue narrative of how somehow his virtually nonexistent fans here call him this and that but, he's the fact is that he has had stellar numbers.
Hypothetically he may as well go pointless in 2012, but these aren't fantasy discussions. Alcaraz is as good if not better than the Big 3 at this stage of his life and career, and has had a phenomenal season. I hope he rests up and goes on to win every single match be ever plays like prime/peak Big 3.
Also no, there is nothing fair or balanced in your claim. My equating his numbers to some prime Big 3 years could never have meant that I insinuated that he was better than peak Big 3.
False. The Big 3 never lost a match.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
Are you trying to say the level of play this year is on a par with 2012? If you saying results then yeah but he’s only got similar in a much worse field.
This is the point. He’s had great numbers but his level of play is not near the level the big 3 and Murray produced in 2012. Even other players like delpo, berdych, tsonga and ferrer were more consistent and better competition than current field.
Even the best of rest this year like meddy and sinner have been far to inconsistent and not challenged at the top enough.
This Alcaraz in 2012 likely wouldn’t win anything bar maybe a 250/500 events and could sneak 1 masters but it’s pushing it. It nothing against Alcaraz but it’s just he’s not the full package but it’s masked more in this weaker era.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
That would be tough for Alcaraz. Ferrer was damn good those years. Only prime/peak big 3 and MuryGOAT played gate keeper to stop him winning slams and masters.
Before Wimbledon I remember saying that if he didn't win a slam this year, then it would no different to Fed's 2011/15. He then won a great slam.
But to be fair, Raz couldn't have cracked even the Challengers circuit in 2012. The era was that strong. The level of play would have meant that Raz would have barely been a paid professional.
But then I could also say that he would have won a slam in a year Murray too won one. This cannot be disproved either. Hypotheticals, man. My eye test may not agree with yours. So all we know reliably is that Alcaraz at 19/20 is as good, if not better than the Big 3 at this age, and has numbers to show for it, whether or not you dispute said numbers and results.
What should have Raz done for it to have been impressive? Traveling back in time? Dropping no sets all year long? Would the Big 3 at 20 won everything at the same stage of his life and career?
djokovic the conqueror
Professional
Alcaraz won Wimbledon through pure luck and with lots of help. He's not gonna be so lucky next year. If he were as good as his fans say he is then he wouldn't be so mediocre after Wimbledon.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I agree he can’t and same for current Djokovic. It’s not their fault this era is weak. It is what it is but comparison will always be made.
Still if he gets the records in this time he will still be the best despite the era. I just think he should have a great window to dominate if he’s as good as many say he is. Time will tell if he’s as talented and the complete package to do that or not. If he can’t dominate this era maybe he’s not as great as many thought.
He’s timed it well but the rest is up to him and of course the future is unpredictable with maybe new talents rising.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
He saved tennis in the best match of the year
InsideOut900
Legend
AO 22: Ferrer
RG 22: Ferrer clearly
Wimbledon 22: Ferrer clearly (took out Del Po and gave peak Murray a real battle)
USO 22: idk
AO 23: well, SF better than not playing
RG 23: Ferrer clearly
Wimbledon 23: Carlos clearly
USO 23: idk, probably Carlos
Not looking good for Tiny
Born_to_slice
Legend
Which is perfectly fine for a 20 yo (who already won 2 slams in his career - fantastic).Been saying this for a while, yet I’m called a Tiny Carl hater or a jealous RAFAN
The kid is really good but he has been overrated by a huge chunk of the forum. A lot of wins this year have been ugly wins. At the end of the day winning is the most important thing, but he hasn’t played his A game that often and has looked far from dominant.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
It's baffling why anyone out there is supposedly doubting Carlos being "as good as many say he is." That suggests there's widespread doubt about Alcaraz being a truly great player except among some pathologically insecure Djokovic fans. Those are the only doubters out there and they have an agenda.
In the history of the Open era, the only player who won a slam who didn't go on to become an ATG or win multiple slams was Michael Chang, and Hewitt is the only other player who didn't go on to become an ATG. Look at this list, it speaks volumes:
- Michael Chang – 17 years, 110 days – Won 1989 French Open
- Boris Becker – 17 years, 228 days – Won Wimbledon 1985
- Mats Wilander – 17 years, 293 days – Won Roland Garros in 1982
- Björn Borg – 18 years, 10 days – Won Roland Garros in 1974
- Rafael Nadal – 19 years, 3 days – Won Roland Garros in 2005
- Pete Sampras – 19 years, 29 days – Won 1990 U.S. Open
- Carlos Alcaraz – 19 years, 129 days – Won 2022 U.S. Open
- Stefan Edberg – 19 years, 324 days – Won 1985 Australian Open
- Lleyton Hewitt – 20 years, 198 days – Won 2001 U.S. Open
- John McEnroe – 20 years, 205 days – Won 1979 U.S. Open
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
You’re comparing his results in a vastly weaker year to when the Big 3/4 were all playing at a high level thus preventing them from dominating. It’s not an apples to apples comparison and to pretend otherwise is pretty disingenuous. Was it their career best? No but it was a helluva lot better than the 2023 field.
2023 Tiny Carl isn’t close to being on the level as 2013 Joker
The guy made 3/4 schlem Fs (would have been 4/4 had he not faced Primedal in the RG SF). His level of play was demonstrably better than anything Carl has shown this year.Dear Lord the fact that people still don’t know that Tiny Carl came from: “I don’t like to be called Carlos I like to be called Carlitos” is beyond ridiculous at this point. Carlitos translated into English means little or tiny Carl.
Results in sports are by and large your performance vs your competitions performance. It’s a lot easier to succeed and your level doesn’t have to be as high when your competition is playing at a considerably lower level.
Did I say that just you are overrating him? No I didn’t. I said a huge chunk of this forum is overrating him. I’ve seen ND-13 say that Tiny Carl is going to break RAFA’s RG record (let him win it once). I’ve seen daggerman say that he thinks he’s better than peak Joker etc.
Besides, I’ve gone on record multiple times saying that Tiny Carl is better than Fedovic at the same (minus Joker on HC). I’ve called him an ATG level talent and I think he’ll win double digit schlems. Apparently that’s not good enough for you guys
There are 3 types of Alcaraz fans:
1. Djokovic fans who big him up during tournaments but crap on him later when their guy has won
2. Fedal fans who celebrate him when he wins against Djokovic, but will stomp him down when he loses to knock Djokovic down for it being a weak era
3. Mythical fans who call him a peak Big 3 equivalent -- jointly used as a reference by the fanbases above to jointly mock him lol.
4. Actual fans. There are perhaps 4 of us here.
1. Djokovic fans who big him up during tournaments but crap on him later when their guy has won
2. Fedal fans who celebrate him when he wins against Djokovic, but will stomp him down when he loses to knock Djokovic down for it being a weak era
3. Mythical fans who call him a peak Big 3 equivalent -- jointly used as a reference by the fanbases above to jointly mock him lol.
4. Actual fans. There are perhaps 4 of us here.
so if he’s not even as good as Ferrer who’s the new comparison? Robredo?AO 22: Ferrer
RG 22: Ferrer clearly
Wimbledon 22: Ferrer clearly (took out Del Po and gave peak Murray a real battle)
USO 22: idk
AO 23: well, SF better than not playing
RG 23: Ferrer clearly
Wimbledon 23: Carlos clearly
USO 23: idk, probably Carlos
Not looking good for Tiny
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Never said he didn’t have respectable results for his age, just that people are leaving out a ton of context when they say things like he’s already as good if not better than prime Big 3 players.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I’m sure he will win more. However, I don’t see sustained dominance like the big 3.
He just seems more vulnerable to the field in comparison to big 3.
It feels he needs to change up his game as players already working him out. The poor serve is an issue too. We will see what happens.
I think he can become an ATG but not a big 3 level player. Of course I could be wrong lie many others.
May be you're correct. But Alcaraz himself reached the semis of the three slams he played this year. One, he cramped out. I believe he'd have won it otherwise. He displayed the highest level during the tournament but levels alone don't win matches you see. Peak/prime Big 3 have lost to lesser players than a zoning Medvedev too.You’re comparing his results in a vastly weaker year to when the Big 3/4 were all playing at a high level thus preventing them from dominating. It’s not an apples to apples comparison and to pretend otherwise is pretty disingenuous. Was it their career best? No but it was a helluva lot better than the 2023 field.
2023 Tiny Carl isn’t close to being on the level as 2013 Joker
Dear Lord the fact that people still don’t know that Tiny Carl came from: “I don’t like to be called Carlos I like to be called Carlitos” is beyond ridiculous at this point. Carlitos translated into English means little or tiny Carl.
Results in sports are by and large your performance vs your competitions performance. It’s a lot easier to succeed and your level doesn’t have to be as high when your competition is playing at a considerably lower level.
Did I say that just you are overrating him? No I didn’t. I said a huge chunk of this forum is overrating him. I’ve seen ND-13 say that Tiny Carl is going to break RAFA’s RG record (let him win it once). I’ve seen daggerman say that he thinks he’s better than peak Joker etc.
Besides, I’ve gone on record multiple times saying that Tiny Carl is better than Fedovic at the same (minus Joker on HC). I’ve called him an ATG level talent and I think he’ll win double digit schlems. Apparently that’s not good enough for you guys
Plus as I have observed, Alcaraz doesn't have a genuine fan who calls him a peak Big-3 equal except for Big-3 fans with their own agendas.
I'm a fan of a Big 3 player myself and I know agenda-posting when I see one.
Ps. Tiny can be an endearing term. It isn't from most who call him that
Weak era. Discredited. Next.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
maybe metsman was right
InsideOut900
Legend
Maybe Big 3 wouldn't win as often as Carlos today since Fed and Djoko at the very least peaked later, but better wonder what would happen if you dropped Carlos in the 2007 field instead of Novak or 2006 field instead of Nadal?
He doesn't win a single big title, heck doesn't come close to winning any.
He has a high floor allowing him to grind matches against aging Novak and weaker crop, but a low ceilling or at least unable to even access his ceilling consistently.
2021 Med would be a good comparison.
Born_to_slice
Legend
Meh. Who is even saying that?
Pro players all over the world are losing sleep over what FeroBango thinks.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
The 2 SF that he lost in weren’t exactly ringing endorsements for his level of play though. Before he cramped at RG he (especially him) and Joker were spraying the ball all over the place. And he was beaten rather easily by the Mad Lad at the 2-1 Open which definitely casts dispersions on his 2022 draw.
There’s no agenda in my posts about him. I’m trying to be as fair as possible to him (and the Bug 3). If I genuinely believed he’s a Big 3 level talent I’d say so but I just don’t see it. That doesn’t mean I’m a fake fan. I’m just trying to be as objective as possible. I have to take into account the level of the field when discussing his results. I did the same thing with RAFA last year. Even though he won half the schlems I had no issue admitting the level of the field played a huge part in his success.
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
What luck? He thrashed Medvedev. And he won queens as well. He is 20 and learned to play just in last 2 years here.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Plenty of people here, hence my pushing back.
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