Best and worst GS Fs played by the Big 3 at each venue?

[StrongRule]

Oh yeah 2015 RG is a good shout, too.

Djokovic didn't play bad in RG 2015 final. That was pretty much his usual level on this court, which was never an unbeatable level anyway. Wawrinka was GOATing, and also somehow stayed very clutch in the fourth set.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Federer
best finals
AO - 2007 final vs Gonzalez
RG - 2009 final vs Soderling
Wimbledon - 2005 final vs Roddick
USOpen - 2004 final vs Hewitt

worst finals
AO - 2018 final vs Cilic
RG - 2008 final vs Nadal
Wimbledon - 2015 final vs Djokovic
USOpen - 2009 final vs Del Potro

Nadal
best finals
AO - 2009 final vs Federer
RG - 2008 final vs Federer
Wimbledon - 2010 final vs Berdych
USOpen - 2013 final vs Djokovic

worst finals
AO - 2014 final vs Wawrinka
RG - LOL No worst finals ever
Wimbledon - 2006 final vs Federer
USOpen - 2011 final vs Djokovic

Djokovic
best finals
AO - 2012 final vs Nadal
RG - 2021 final vs Tsitsipas
Wimbledon - 2015 final vs Federer
USOpen - 2018 final vs Delpo

worst finals
AO - 2020 final vs Thiem
RG - 2015 final vs Wawrinka
Wimbledon - 2013 final vs Murray
USOpen - 2021 final vs Medvedev

 

[nolefam_2024]

Peak for peak for peak
AO Federer 2007 vs Djokovic 2012 vs Nadal 2009 - I would definitely go with Djokovic 2012
RG Federer 2009 vs Djokovic 2021 vs Nadal 2008 - I would definitely go with Nadal 2008
Wimbledon Federer 2005 vs Djokovic 2015 vs Nadal 2010 - I think this would be between Federer and Djokovic, going with Federer
USOpen Federer 2004 vs Djokovic 2018 vs Nadal 2013 - This is inconclusive for me. Nole can beat both and lose to both. Fedal completely unsure. 3 way tie.


Worst for worst for worst
AO Federer 2018 vs Djokovic 2020 vs Nadal 2014 - I would go with Djokovic
RG Federer 2008 vs Djokovic 2015 vs Nadal lets say 2022 - A little lean to Nadal
Wimbledon Federer 2015 vs Djokovic 2013 vs Nadal 2006 - Going with Federer here
USOpen - Federer 2009 vs Djokovic 2021 vs Nadal 2011 - Again inconclusive but 2 way tie between Federer and Nadal

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Somehow Djokovic fans never apply this logic to Djokovic. According to them he was better in RG 2016 than in any of RG 2011-2015 simply because he won it.

It's the other way around. Many people claim Djokovic's opponent's level "mysteriously" dropped before facing him as if he had nothing to do with that happening.

Examples.

1- Federer plays a stellar match vs Murray in Wimbledon 2015 SF, can only gain a set in a tiebreak and saving set points to avoid losing in straights in the final against Djokovic.
2- Medvedev routines Alcaraz in the USO SF in 2023, one of the best matches in his career. Loses in straights to Djokovic in the final.
3- Federer trashes Wawrinka in straights at the USO 2015 SF. Loses in 4 without much trouble in the final.
4- Murray plays a great Roland Garros and clay season in 2016 (even beating Nadal). Loses in 4 to Djokovic in the final.
5- Tsonga plays a stellar match vs Nadal in the SF of AO 2008, his best match ever. Doesn't do much after the 1st in the final.
6- Murray in basically all of their AO finals.
7- Nadal having his best run ever to the AO final without dropping a set in 2019, had one of his worst-ever beatings in the final.
8- JMDP having a great run to the USO 2018 final, losing in straights in the final.
9- Medvedev having a great run to the final at the AO 2021, many people having him as an equal favorite, got destroyed in the final.
10- Ruud destroying Zverev and Rune to make the final in RG 2023, people saying he bent over in the final.

Regarding RG, many would say he played better in 2013 than in 2016 but lost because of Nadal. In 2012 he went to 5 with Seppi and had to save MP to Tsonga, so he wasn't better. 2011 hard to say, he didn't play the QF and lost in the SF, so he couldn't have been better winning only 4 matches. 2014 he was pretty underwhelming in the final. 2015 he had a much tougher time with Murray than 2016 and he was routined by Wawrinka so it can't be either. 2020 could be also it's outside that period, he was pretty good outside the Nadal match.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Federer's best and worst slam finals:

Best:
AO: 2004-Fed won 44.3% of his return points. I think that Fed was at his very best on hard courts in 2004. Unpopular take: this is Fed's best year level-wise against the best players on tour.
FO: 2009-40 winners vs 18 unforced erors for somebody like Federer on an extremely slow court is as good as he will ever get. This is Fed's 2nd best slam final ever.
WI: 2005- 45 winners vs 20 unforced errors is incredible. Federer's ground game was at his best here, as was his return game. Winning 38.9% of your return points against a guy slamming 140-145 mph serves is incredible with a crummy 90 inch stick.
USO: 2004- easy pick. bageling a guy ranked #100 is very hard to do on a fast hard court. Double-bageling a guy in the top-5 that's currently on a 16 match winning streak makes this Fed's best slam final ever.


Worst
AO: 2018- I honestly don't have a good reason to pick this one, other than the fact that Fed was very unclutch. When you win 80% of your first serves and 58% of your second serves, you should win in straight sets.
FO: 2008- This one is too obvious
WI: 2015- 60 UFE and a paltry 1/7 on break points seals it. Fed was far better in 2014; even though he lost that match to the same player.
USO: 2015- 4/23 on break points is horrendous.

He was 18-0 vs Top 10 that year, 100% effectiveness which never ever happened, so it shouldn't be unpopular.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Federer
best finals
AO - 2007 final vs Gonzalez
RG - 2009 final vs Soderling
Wimbledon - 2005 final vs Roddick
USOpen - 2004 final vs Hewitt

worst finals
AO - 2018 final vs Cilic
RG - 2008 final vs Nadal
Wimbledon - 2015 final vs Djokovic
USOpen - 2009 final vs Del Potro

Nadal
best finals
AO - 2009 final vs Federer
RG - 2008 final vs Federer
Wimbledon - 2010 final vs Berdych
USOpen - 2013 final vs Djokovic

worst finals
AO - 2014 final vs Wawrinka
RG - LOL No worst finals ever
Wimbledon - 2006 final vs Federer
USOpen - 2011 final vs Djokovic

Djokovic
best finals
AO - 2012 final vs Nadal
RG - 2021 final vs Tsitsipas
Wimbledon - 2015 final vs Federer
USOpen - 2018 final vs Delpo

worst finals
AO - 2020 final vs Thiem
RG - 2015 final vs Wawrinka
Wimbledon - 2013 final vs Murray
USOpen - 2021 final vs Medvedev

This mostly.

I'd say Djokovic was better in USO 2011 than USO 2018, though him choking the 3rd when serving for it makes me doubt. If not, it would be 2011.

Nadal was as good, if not better, in AO 2012 as in AO 2009.

He didn't have "bad" RG finals, but 2011 was the weakest one.

His USO 2019 final was worse than 2011.

Federer AO 2007 was great but he had to save two set points on Gonzalez's serve, so I'm going with AO 2004 which he did better against a better player, even if Safin was gassed. He won tons of return points against an elite server. In 2010 he also destroyed Murray.

Djokovic was better in RG 2016 final than in RG 2021. He might have been better in the sets he won in 2021, but in 2016 he lost one compared to two, and one of the sets he lost in 2021 was pretty straightforward.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Djokovic didn't play bad in RG 2015 final. That was pretty much his usual level on this court, which was never an unbeatable level anyway. Wawrinka was GOATing, and also somehow stayed very clutch in the fourth set.

I dont think there was anything Djokovic could do to change the result, because as you say Wawrinka was in Slamwrinka mode.

But @The Blond Blur is correct, Djokovic played some of his most passive tennis in that match. Wawrinka was allowed to take complete control. Djokovic is capable of far more aggressive claycourt tennis than that, so to see him bring that in a final was fairly shocking imo.

 

[Angrybirdstar]

ideally we’d have other kinds of stats, say average number of feet a player has to move to get to a ball and avg response time available. None of that exists today, that I know. Maybe AI tools will change that in the future.

there is no sports stat that will ever exist in a vacuum untouched by context because stats are not objective truth, players are fallible and unpredictable humans, and sports are competition for victory And entertainment.

to expand on the first point: statistics are tools that capture certain kinds of info to be communicated. one prioritizes certain info for a stat's creation, tracks stats as part of ideology of what analysis is necessary & possible, cites stats to support a necessarily preexisting narrative

it’s not clear to me that stats by themselves, at least the stats we have available, allow us to determine if a match result reflects more the winner playing well or the loser playing badly.

this conundrum is resolved for many cases if you accept the basic principles that

1. learning in general, by personal experience or study, can be unconscious and intuitive, even if not easily recommunicated
2. analysis of any kind is something anyone can learn and wield, in order to think better and inspire novel analysis in others
3. the subjectivity of analysis adds rather than detracts from the process - if there was an objective formula, no one would need to think; without one, people must make a conscious effort to organize their thoughts and formalize personally meaningful frameworks through discourse
4. if one repeatedly throws one's hands up and declares eye-test-based analysis to be impossible or pointless, they preclude the chance of finding valuable insights beyond counting results or listing stats, and fundamentally reject the organizing principle of the discourse they nevertheless continue to engage in.

There was a thread here the other day about a player commenting in the post match press conference what it feels like to face Novak. And one point he made (can‘t find the thread right now) was that when Novak was on it threw all your match plans out the window. All of a sudden you are facing much faster and deeper balls, maybe with more angle, and balls you hit that would have been winners against almost anyone else are returned.

Tommy Paul: https://apnews.com/article/novak-dj...ourne-tennis-934ea8ee69c836d0dbfa58d523ed18ef

 

[Third Serve]

this conundrum is resolved for many cases if you accept the basic principles that

1. learning in general, by personal experience or study, can be unconscious and intuitive, even if not easily recommunicated
2. analysis of any kind is something anyone can learn and wield, in order to think better and inspire novel analysis in others
3. the subjectivity of analysis adds rather than detracts from the process - if there was an objective formula, no one would need to think; without one, people must make a conscious effort to organize their thoughts and formalize personally meaningful frameworks through discourse
4. if one repeatedly throws one's hands up and declares eye-test-based analysis to be impossible or pointless, they preclude the chance of finding valuable insights beyond counting results or listing stats, and fundamentally reject the organizing principle of the discourse they nevertheless continue to engage in.

Thank you for articulating this a lot better than I did.

 

[InsideOut900]

Funny thing is, I actually grew less impressed by Noel's level there after rewatching just now. It's not like his shots were exceptional (well, a few were, as in any match), a capable opponent could have held on to that and made it a battle but Nadal was so slow and erratic and most of his shots lacked bite. When he managed to hit a strong shot or two, Djokovic was often in trouble; Nadal threw away his chances though by missing from advantageous positions.

Well, he definitely played his A game for good chunks of that match and cut his errors to the maximum in the first 2 sets, so in a sense it was still a great/elite performance, I just feel people are quick to place it at the top just because of how much he dominated a poorly playing opponent without seeing any of the flaws of his game.

Actually I think the answer here is that he played the 2019 final with intent to crushing his opponent, which didn't happen in say 2011 or 2016 where he kinda just played within himself to get the W, knowing he has it easily.

I remember he had the chances to crush Murray 6-0 6-2 in the last 2 sets of 2011 final if he actually tried.

I wouldn't go the metsman route of fit 2009 Djoko beats 2019 Djoko, but his best younger versions would definitely beat him for the most part.

 

[StrongRule]

It's the other way around. Many people claim Djokovic's opponent's level "mysteriously" dropped before facing him as if he had nothing to do with that happening.

Examples.

1- Federer plays a stellar match vs Murray in Wimbledon 2015 SF, can only gain a set in a tiebreak and saving set points to avoid losing in straights in the final against Djokovic.
2- Medvedev routines Alcaraz in the USO SF in 2023, one of the best matches in his career. Loses in straights to Djokovic in the final.
3- Federer trashes Wawrinka in straights at the USO 2015 SF. Loses in 4 without much trouble in the final.
4- Murray plays a great Roland Garros and clay season in 2016 (even beating Nadal). Loses in 4 to Djokovic in the final.
5- Tsonga plays a stellar match vs Nadal in the SF of AO 2008, his best match ever. Doesn't do much after the 1st in the final.
6- Murray in basically all of their AO finals.
7- Nadal having his best run ever to the AO final without dropping a set in 2019, had one of his worst-ever beatings in the final.
8- JMDP having a great run to the USO 2018 final, losing in straights in the final.
9- Medvedev having a great run to the final at the AO 2021, many people having him as an equal favorite, got destroyed in the final.
10- Ruud destroying Zverev and Rune to make the final in RG 2023, people saying he bent over in the final.

Regarding RG, many would say he played better in 2013 than in 2016 but lost because of Nadal. In 2012 he went to 5 with Seppi and had to save MP to Tsonga, so he wasn't better. 2011 hard to say, he didn't play the QF and lost in the SF, so he couldn't have been better winning only 4 matches. 2014 he was pretty underwhelming in the final. 2015 he had a much tougher time with Murray than 2016 and he was routined by Wawrinka so it can't be either. 2020 could be also it's outside that period, he was pretty good outside the Nadal match.

Is that a joke? Murray should have lost to a 37 years Stepanek in the first round, or to Bourgue (omg, AGAIN I had to look it up. How can't I remember the name of this beast?) in the second round. And it's not like he improved much after that. Only against Wawrinka he played a somewhat decent match, and still lost a set. In the final he totally collapsed after 40 minutes. Also, what kind of achievement is it to beat 2016 Nadal, a player who was at the worst period of his career? It's much more telling that Murray found a way to lose to a terrible version of Nadal in Monte Carlo.

What you wrote at the end only supports my theory. You don't mention the much weaker 2016 draw. (compared to other years) Which version of Djokovic might not win RG with this draw? Really not easy to find one.