Best College Players v. Next Gen Guys

Gemini

Hall of Fame
I'm saying it was a bad example, he is ranked lower now than he was two years out of college, you could argue he hasn't gotten much better since his second professional year.

You said " Top 200 pros have the ability to hit, while keeping the ball in, consistently harder and deeper than just about every college player I've ever seen," and then used Johnson as an example.

I thought my sarcastic point was that Steve Johnson was more than capable of competing within the top 200 while still in college.

J
Far from a bad example. My point was that even someone of his caliber had to adjust. And just about every college player is not every college player. In addition to that, I've haven't seen EVERY college player there is within any given time period, but the one overriding factor for just about everyone that I've seen working out with a top 200 pro is exactly as I stated.
 
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db379

Hall of Fame
If you watch a lot of college and pro tennis one of the biggest differences you'll notice is service placement and consistency. College players don't hit very many aces/service winners. (Now part of this is the returner squeezing the lines by calling line clippers out), but typically college guys, even the top ones, don't use their serves as much of a weapon as they could. Especially in tight 3rd sets, most college guys just roll them in.

Pros are very good at mixing up placement and getting free points here and there, even guys who aren't known for a big serve.
Very true. Serve is the most important shot in tennis.
 

BigDaveB

New User
The very best college players are the equivalent of 350 - 400 ATP. If you ever want to go pro, your most viable option is foregoing college. Sure, a very few players come through but by and large you are wasting your time in college. You lose too much opportunity to focus on the challengers and futures, build up your ATP ranking, etc. Short sets and no ad scoring is to help promote college tennis NOT get college players ready to go pro. A few of the college coaches get it....they realize personal development only helps their programs. They allow their top players to do tourneys on top of the college schedule. Wake Forest comes to mind.
 

BigDaveB

New User
Well my current examples are actually lower on ATP rankings than I said. More like 500 - 750. When they graduate they typically top out at 350-400.
Martin Redlicki
William Blumberg
Nuno Borges
Petros Chrysocos
Mikael Torpegaard
 
Well my current examples are actually lower on ATP rankings than I said. More like 500 - 750. When they graduate they typically top out at 350-400.
Martin Redlicki
William Blumberg
Nuno Borges
Petros Chrysocos
Mikael Torpegaard
There's actually been quite a few college guys that have gone beyond that recently. Into the top 300 and beyond.

Brayden Schnur, Yannick Maden(top 150), Dominik Koepfer, Evan King, Kevin King, Denis Novikov, Blaz Rola (top 100), Marcelo Arevalo, Aleksandr Nedovyesov (top 100), Noah Rubin, Alex Sarkissian, Tim Puetz, Roberto Quiroz, Austin Krajicek, Bradley Klahn (top 100).

Most of those guys were top college players but not all of them were elite in college. I don't see why some current college guys couldn't work hard and get into the top 200 like these guys did after college
 

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
I don't think Steve Johnson is a good example. he was best college player ever so he isn't a typical college player. typical great college player is player like Denis Novikov. he just won a challenger tournament last week. but is still struggling to make top 100. like James Blake saids, these good college player have pretty good talent but just can't play their best every single week. When they play their best, they can beat the top 50 player but if they are only playing 70-80 % of their capability, then they don't have a chance against top 50 guys.
 

BigDaveB

New User
There's actually been quite a few college guys that have gone beyond that recently. Into the top 300 and beyond.

Brayden Schnur, Yannick Maden(top 150), Dominik Koepfer, Evan King, Kevin King, Denis Novikov, Blaz Rola (top 100), Marcelo Arevalo, Aleksandr Nedovyesov (top 100), Noah Rubin, Alex Sarkissian, Tim Puetz, Roberto Quiroz, Austin Krajicek, Bradley Klahn (top 100).

Most of those guys were top college players but not all of them were elite in college. I don't see why some current college guys couldn't work hard and get into the top 200 like these guys did after college
 

BigDaveB

New User
A few will come through yes. But by and large, the guys that turn pro out of high school vs going to college....and sign with an agent and have funding at an earlier age have a better chance of making it on tour. Compare the players you listed to Opelka, Fritz, Paul....who I am not completely sold on making it and you get my point.
 

BigDaveB

New User
I don't think Steve Johnson is a good example. he was best college player ever so he isn't a typical college player. typical great college player is player like Denis Novikov. he just won a challenger tournament last week. but is still struggling to make top 100. like James Blake saids, these good college player have pretty good talent but just can't play their best every single week. When they play their best, they can beat the top 50 player but if they are only playing 70-80 % of their capability, then they don't have a chance against top 50 guys.
 

BigDaveB

New User
I don't think Steve Johnson is a good example. he was best college player ever so he isn't a typical college player. typical great college player is player like Denis Novikov. he just won a challenger tournament last week. but is still struggling to make top 100. like James Blake saids, these good college player have pretty good talent but just can't play their best every single week. When they play their best, they can beat the top 50 player but if they are only playing 70-80 % of their capability, then they don't have a chance against top 50 guys.
 

BigDaveB

New User
Steve Johnson was the best college player ever? He pretty much sucks which proves my point. But then again, Jack Sock sucks so I guess I have no point other than if you are walking the line between pro and college, going pro is a better bet if have a chance of making it.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
There's actually been quite a few college guys that have gone beyond that recently. Into the top 300 and beyond.

Brayden Schnur, Yannick Maden(top 150), Dominik Koepfer, Evan King, Kevin King, Denis Novikov, Blaz Rola (top 100), Marcelo Arevalo, Aleksandr Nedovyesov (top 100), Noah Rubin, Alex Sarkissian, Tim Puetz, Roberto Quiroz, Austin Krajicek, Bradley Klahn (top 100).

Most of those guys were top college players but not all of them were elite in college. I don't see why some current college guys couldn't work hard and get into the top 200 like these guys did after college
It could be harder for top college guys to advance in the circuit in 2019 unless they get in top 750 or so by December. There will be no ATP points earned for $15K futures in 2019 and I think only points for finalist and winner for $25Ks. Interesting fact- Petros Chrysochos, MVP of Nat Indoors, currently has no ATP points; in 2015 he reached a high of 469 (he won 2 Futures titles in 2015). He played Naples Futures over winter break, had to play 4 Quali matches to get in MD (128 draw Quali), and then had to play Skander in 1st rd of main-they split sets and he retired in 3rd. The only other tourney he played was Winston 250-got a WC into MD and lost in first round (he was on the alternate list for Columbus Futures in Nov and withdrew before tourney start). Even guys as talented as Petros could lose WC spots to top ITF world juniors in 2019 with the new Transition Tour which favors top world juniors (5 WCs into MD) over college players without ATP points. Hopefully the top college guys will play and win a lot in Futures in the summer and fall to be set for Jan 2019. Currently college players without ATP points (and also those not in top 800 or so) have to play Qualis but the top guys-unless they have to play each other in Qualis-should make it to MD. Next year the Qualis will only be 24 draws instead of 64-128, so guys without ATP points or ITF Transition entry points may not even get in Qualis of the Transition Tours. Could be a lot more college guys taking the whole fall off this year. ATP points earned this year in $15Ks will be transition entry points next year. Most of the summer Futures and I think all the USTA Collegiate Circuits are $25s, but there are other fall Futures that are only $15K.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Steve Johnson was the best college player ever? He pretty much sucks which proves my point. But then again, Jack Sock sucks so I guess I have no point other than if you are walking the line between pro and college, going pro is a better bet if have a chance of making it.
#8 in the world Jack Sock or a different one?

J
 

BigDaveB

New User
Yes the Jack Sock who lost yesterday to Ernesto Escobedo. And the same Jack Sock who lost first round at 3 of the last 4 slams. Only 2 times has he made a 4th round in 21 slams and never a semi.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes the Jack Sock who lost yesterday to Ernesto Escobedo. And the same Jack Sock who lost first round at 3 of the last 4 slams. Only 2 times has he made a 4th round in 21 slams and never a semi.
Give the guy a break, he is a mixed doubles specialist.

J
 

Doubles

Legend
Yes the Jack Sock who lost yesterday to Ernesto Escobedo. And the same Jack Sock who lost first round at 3 of the last 4 slams. Only 2 times has he made a 4th round in 21 slams and never a semi.
Yeah, if you ain't first, you're last.
 
Man don't be absurd. if Jack Sock "sucks", what does that make every former college pro and current college player that we are discussing in this thread? Any current college guy would be in dreamworld to have Sock's pro career after college.
 

BigDaveB

New User
Man don't be absurd. if Jack Sock "sucks", what does that make every former college pro and current college player that we are discussing in this thread? Any current college guy would be in dreamworld to have Sock's pro career after college.
Yeah maybe that is their dream world, I don’t begrudge that and you’re right, I am getting away from the thread. Just saying how many slams have the Americans won lately? Jack Sock is #10 in the world right now but he’s no threat to win a major. Which pretty much sums up American tennis right now. And college tennis ain’t helping either!
 

Doubles

Legend
If you are only winning 60% of your matches and have never really challenged for a slam title in 21 tries, a #10 world ranking is not all that impressive. Just my opinion though.
Your opinion is obviously very strongly grounded in objective fact. Being ranked in the top 10 in the world in whatever you do isn't really that impressive.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
Your opinion is obviously very strongly grounded in objective fact. Being ranked in the top 10 in the world in whatever you do isn't really that impressive.
Meanwhile some on here contend that to reach the 4.0 level is to excel.

J
 

frog1288

Rookie
I cant believe someone is saying Sock sucks in the context of being a good ATP player. ****ing idiotic.

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db379

Hall of Fame
It's really tough for college players to make it on tour. Look at McDonald, he's probably the best college player since Johnson, he turned pro in 2016, and he has not made much of a dent on tour yet... I believe he has won only 1 match on the pro tour (not including challengers) so far, and he has not got in the top 100 yet. Tough.
 

BigDaveB

New User
I cant believe someone is saying Sock sucks in the context of being a good ATP player. ****ing idiotic.

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You are right, I stand corrected. Sock is good. And we are ok with good. Sock is the best we have.
I cant believe someone is saying Sock sucks in the context of being a good ATP player. ****ing idiotic.

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What is a good ATP player? Tracking along at 60%. Ok, that is good by your definition?
 

xbr

Rookie
Well my current examples are actually lower on ATP rankings than I said. More like 500 - 750. When they graduate they typically top out at 350-400.
Martin Redlicki
William Blumberg
Nuno Borges
Petros Chrysocos
Mikael Torpegaard
Add Gustav Hansson, Tom Fawcett, Borna Gojo, Alex Rybakov, Michael Geerts, Daniel Cukierman etc to the list of players that are most certainly top 400 level players.
 

frog1288

Rookie
It's really tough for college players to make it on tour. Look at McDonald, he's probably the best college player since Johnson, he turned pro in 2016, and he has not made much of a dent on tour yet... I believe he has won only 1 match on the pro tour (not including challengers) so far, and he has not got in the top 100 yet. Tough.
Norrie is probably the best since Johnson... close to top 100 with one less year on tour

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frog1288

Rookie
You are right, I stand corrected. Sock is good. And we are ok with good. Sock is the best we have.

What is a good ATP player? Tracking along at 60%. Ok, that is good by your definition?
A good ATP player is anyone top 50. Unless Sock is being awarded points for not winning, you dont make top 10 without winning some matches

Would you call Kawhi Leonoard or Giannis Antekempo not good NBA players? Because they are probably around #10 best players.

Or Drew Brees? Andrew Luck?



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BigDaveB

New User
A good ATP player is anyone top 50. Unless Sock is being awarded points for not winning, you dont make top 10 without winning some matches

Would you call Kawhi Leonoard or Giannis Antekempo not good NBA players? Because they are probably around #10 best players.

Or Drew Brees? Andrew Luck?



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
 

BigDaveB

New User
A good ATP player is anyone top 50. Unless Sock is being awarded points for not winning, you dont make top 10 without winning some matches

Would you call Kawhi Leonoard or Giannis Antekempo not good NBA players? Because they are probably around #10 best players.

Or Drew Brees? Andrew Luck?



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Drew Brees yes, he won a super bowl. Andrew Luck is 3-3 in playoff games, not bad in comparison to Jack Sock’s Slam record. Bottom line is American tennis sucks in comparison to most other countries with major tennis federations. Our US Open money is not going to support our kids enough and our USTA PD program is a joke!
 

BigDaveB

New User
Norrie is probably the best since Johnson... close to top 100 with one less year on tour

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Jury still out on Cam. He wasted time in college so hopefully that doesn’t hold him back. Good thing he is playing ATP events now vs next year so his results are positively affecting his ability to play the bigger events.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
A few will come through yes. But by and large, the guys that turn pro out of high school vs going to college....and sign with an agent and have funding at an earlier age have a better chance of making it on tour. Compare the players you listed to Opelka, Fritz, Paul....who I am not completely sold on making it and you get my point.
Now, let's list all the players who turned pro after high school and never did any better than guys who went to college. A lot of bad decisions are made to go pro.
 

BigDaveB

New User
Now, let's list all the players who turned pro after high school and never did any better than guys who went to college. A lot of bad decisions are made to go pro.
And a lot of bad decisions are made to go to college. You can always go back to school but if you go to a program where there is no player development, you will be 4 years behind the others. Compare college grads now to Opelka, Fritz, Tommy Paul and others. Look at just what one year did to Rubin and Schnur in comparison!
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
And a lot of bad decisions are made to go to college. You can always go back to school but if you go to a program where there is no player development, you will be 4 years behind the others. Compare college grads now to Opelka, Fritz, Tommy Paul and others. Look at just what one year did to Rubin and Schnur in comparison!
You don't have to go for four years. If the coaching, practices, etc. are not what you expected, you can leave after one year or even after one semester. How could you possibly be set back after one semester?
 
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BigDaveB

New User
You don't have to go for four year. If the coaching, practices, etc. are not what you expected, you can leave after one year or even after one semester. How could you possibly be set back after one semester?
Not one semester no I agree with you. I am just saying that the guys that are not going to college first by and large are having more success than the ones that play 3-4 years. You have a few giants like Isner and Anderson that played D1 and made it...and of course Steve Johnson. But unless you are playing #1 or #2 on your top 25 D1 team, you are not getting quality matches in (or practice). You have a much better chance of making it on tour if you bypass college. This would apply to any of the top 10 ITF kids. They will have opportunities for contracts, travel money, etc. that college grads don't get. And yes, many won't make it.
 

mad dog1

G.O.A.T.
I dont think any current college player can hang with the guys you list who all are or will be ranked in the top 60 in the world. However William Blumberg, ATP 619 and one of the top college players, beat Dennis Kudla, currently ATP 164, 3,2 in July 2017 so the top college guys have a shot at the guys ranked 150-200. Tiafoe actually lost to Kudla in the Dallas Challenger Feb 2017.
What’s not apparent in the scoreline is injuries. DK might have been hurt or nursing an injury.

Dennis Novikov beat Kei nishikori in Kei’s first match back from wrist injury at Newport Beach only to lose the following week in Dallas in the rematch.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
Not one semester no I agree with you. I am just saying that the guys that are not going to college first by and large are having more success than the ones that play 3-4 years. You have a few giants like Isner and Anderson that played D1 and made it...and of course Steve Johnson. But unless you are playing #1 or #2 on your top 25 D1 team, you are not getting quality matches in (or practice). You have a much better chance of making it on tour if you bypass college. This would apply to any of the top 10 ITF kids. They will have opportunities for contracts, travel money, etc. that college grads don't get. And yes, many won't make it.
sure. By the same token unless you were good enough to secure a spot at #1 or #2 at a top D1 team you have no business trying to make it on ATP tour.
 

BigDaveB

New User
sure. By the same token unless you were good enough to secure a spot at #1 or #2 at a top D1 team you have no business trying to make it on ATP tour.
Agree, why I stated that above. And don’t forget, even if the college coach is making sure his guys are getting in futures/challengers along with their normal matches, college players are still only getting in about 1/3 of the reps of a pro player. Along with the pressures of school, it’s a much tougher road to make it on tour if you go that route.
 
Just for an example, Aleks Vukic currently has an ATP ranking of 441. He qualified for an ATP main draw in January by beating #75 Dusan Lajovic 7-5, 7-6 and #138 Ricardis Berankis 7-5, 6-2. He then lost to #36 Feliciano Lopez 4-6, 7-6, 3-6. Lopez was in the quarterfinals of an ATP 500 tournament in February and just lost in the 4th round of the Masters 1000 BNP Paribus Open today, so he's been in pretty good form.

In January of 2016, Vukic also beat #62 Sergiy Stakhovsky 3-6, 6-3, 6-4 in qualifying for an ATP event.

I think the biggest thing that holds back some of the top college guys from higher rankings is just not being able to play enough pro tournaments to rack up the necessary points.

And, of course, we all know that if Tom Fawcett played Federer, Roger would be lucky to win a set. :D
 
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