best indoor major: Masters or WCT Finals?

kiki

Banned
1970 Masters was a mere round robin, which Stan Smith finally won.WCT tour started in 1971, so 1971 is the first year of their specific competition.

From 71 till 89 we had two undisputed indoor majors, back when fast carpet ( successor of former wood ) became the most popular tour surface.

There was a fierce rivalry among those Tour End championships, one closing the WCT tour at the Dallas Reunion Arena ( although they even had aWinter finals a few of the years that the tour lasted one full year and that was played in Rome and Naples), and the other, the ITF Gran Prix circuit and generally being played at the Madison Square Garden ( its successor is today´s YEC at London)

Which is the best one? IMO, Dallas had the global edge till very late 70´s and the Masters was the dominant one from early 80´s, although there have been exceptions

Here is my list:

1971/72: Rosewall wins Dallas.Nastase wins Masters.Dallas is the number one
1973: Smith at Dallas and Nastase at the Masters.Closer than previous years, but still WCT dominates
1974: Newcombe at Dallas and Vilas at Masters.No doubt, since 1974 WCT finals is, probably, the best ever indoor event of all time
1975: Ashe wins Dallas and Nastase his last Masters.Close, but the Masters field was, that year, a bit better, so I´ll pick Masters
1976: Borg at Dallas and Orantes at the Houston´s Masters .WCT keeps their strengholdt.
1977: Connors wins both events.That was the first year the Gran prix Masters was held at MSG.I´d say this was the best Masters till then and it is my pick for number one.
1978: Gerulaitis at Dallas and mac at MSG.Close one, both events had better years than 78.But the quality of the Ashe-Mc Enroe final gives Masters the final edge
1979: Mac at Dallas, Borg at New York.very very close.Masters by a pubic hair.possibly the best year if we combine both events, truly exceptional tennis at both
1980: Connors at Dallas and Borg at MSG.Clsoe again, this time I´ll go with WCT Finals
1981: Lendl at the Masters and JMac at WCT.No doubt, Masters was better than WCT that year
1982: Lendl wins both.very close, in both finals, Lendl beat Mac, but it was much better at Dallas, so I´ll take the WCT finals over the Masters
1983: Both events won by John Mc Enroe, and this time reversing the 82 situation and beating Lendl at both finals.No doubt, the 1983 WCT Finals have been one of the toughest ever tournaments and that epic final is one of the best ever indoor matches.Dallas by miles.
1984: Mac, again wins both.Not great year for both, but I´ll give the edge to the Masters
1985: Lendl wins both.This time, by a pubic hair, I´ll go with Dallas
1986: Jarryd wins Dallas and Lendl at the Madison.The Masters was a bit better, so I´ll pick this event for 1986
1987: Mecir beats mc Enroe at Dallas and Lendl anihilates Wilander at New York.Close one, but the general quality of play was superior at Dallas, so WCT takes it all
1988: Becker wins both, beating Edberg at the WCT Finals and Lendl, in a very dramatic final, at Madison.Clearly, the Madison event has to have the edge that year
1989: the last great win for JMac, who pick up his fifth WCT title, with a very convincing win over Ivan Lendl.At the Madison, this time Edberg beats Becker, with Lendl and Mac as beaten semifinalists.Emotionally, I´d prefer Dallas but the Masters offered a better general level of play, so this is my pick

Any other opinions?
 
1970 Masters was a mere round robin, which Stan Smith finally won.WCT tour started in 1971, so 1971 is the first year of their specific competition.

From 71 till 89 we had two undisputed indoor majors, back when fast carpet ( successor of former wood ) became the most popular tour surface.

There was a fierce rivalry among those Tour End championships, one closing the WCT tour at the Dallas Reunion Arena ( although they even had aWinter finals a few of the years that the tour lasted one full year and that was played in Rome and Naples), and the other, the ITF Gran Prix circuit and generally being played at the Madison Square Garden ( its successor is today´s YEC at London)

Which is the best one? IMO, Dallas had the global edge till very late 70´s and the Masters was the dominant one from early 80´s, although there have been exceptions

Here is my list:

1971/72: Rosewall wins Dallas.Nastase wins Masters.Dallas is the number one
1973: Smith at Dallas and Nastase at the Masters.Closer than previous years, but still WCT dominates
1974: Newcombe at Dallas and Vilas at Masters.No doubt, since 1974 WCT finals is, probably, the best ever indoor event of all time
1975: Ashe wins Dallas and Nastase his last Masters.Close, but the Masters field was, that year, a bit better, so I´ll pick Masters
1976: Borg at Dallas and Orantes at the Houston´s Masters .WCT keeps their strengholdt.
1977: Connors wins both events.That was the first year the Gran prix Masters was held at MSG.I´d say this was the best Masters till then and it is my pick for number one.
1978: Gerulaitis at Dallas and mac at MSG.Close one, both events had better years than 78.But the quality of the Ashe-Mc Enroe final gives Masters the final edge
1979: Mac at Dallas, Borg at New York.very very close.Masters by a pubic hair.possibly the best year if we combine both events, truly exceptional tennis at both
1980: Connors at Dallas and Borg at MSG.Clsoe again, this time I´ll go with WCT Finals
1981: Lendl at the Masters and JMac at WCT.No doubt, Masters was better than WCT that year
1982: Lendl wins both.very close, in both finals, Lendl beat Mac, but it was much better at Dallas, so I´ll take the WCT finals over the Masters
1983: Both events won by John Mc Enroe, and this time reversing the 82 situation and beating Lendl at both finals.No doubt, the 1983 WCT Finals have been one of the toughest ever tournaments and that epic final is one of the best ever indoor matches.Dallas by miles.
1984: Mac, again wins both.Not great year for both, but I´ll give the edge to the Masters
1985: Lendl wins both.This time, by a pubic hair, I´ll go with Dallas
1986: Jarryd wins Dallas and Lendl at the Madison.The Masters was a bit better, so I´ll pick this event for 1986
1987: Mecir beats mc Enroe at Dallas and Lendl anihilates Wilander at New York.Close one, but the general quality of play was superior at Dallas, so WCT takes it all
1988: Becker wins both, beating Edberg at the WCT Finals and Lendl, in a very dramatic final, at Madison.Clearly, the Madison event has to have the edge that year
1989: the last great win for JMac, who pick up his fifth WCT title, with a very convincing win over Ivan Lendl.At the Madison, this time Edberg beats Becker, with Lendl and Mac as beaten semifinalists.Emotionally, I´d prefer Dallas but the Masters offered a better general level of play, so this is my pick

Any other opinions?

kiki, I agree mostly.
 
kiki, I agree mostly with the list too.
I do think the WCT Finals took a little dip from 1976-78, then picked up again 79-80. 81 looked slightly under-par, but 83 had the classic final between Mac and Lendl.
The best players appearing 'make' the tournaments, don't they, and some years were better than others. For instance, the Masters 1976 looks a bit weak, but then when Connors appeared again in 1977 (Jan 78 ) after missing it 74-76, it picked up, especially when competing against Borg and Vilas at MSG.
The Masters 78 (Jan 79) took a knock when Borg didn't appear and Jimmy withdrew after an injury during the event. I rated both the Masters and WCT Finals very highly if the best players appeared.
 
kiki, I agree mostly with the list too.
I do think the WCT Finals took a little dip from 1976-78, then picked up again 79-80. 81 looked slightly under-par, but 83 had the classic final between Mac and Lendl.
The best players appearing 'make' the tournaments, don't they, and some years were better than others. For instance, the Masters 1976 looks a bit weak, but then when Connors appeared again in 1977 (Jan 78 ) after missing it 74-76, it picked up, especially when competing against Borg and Vilas at MSG.
The Masters 78 (Jan 79) took a knock when Borg didn't appear and Jimmy withdrew after an injury during the event. I rated both the Masters and WCT Finals very highly if the best players appeared.

Well, WCT had alsways a very very strong tour, so you must factor it in.The 77 tour only had Borg and Vilas at Montecarlo, but look at the players that played the 16 men draws:
Connors,Laver,Rosewall,Panatta,Orantes,Nastase,Kodes,Okker,Fibal,Solomon,Stockton,Drysdale,Alexander,Cox,Gerulaitis,Barazutti among others...it was so great that it even had Borg and Vilas playing in one of the finals...rounding it up¡¡¡
 
Well, WCT had alsways a very very strong tour, so you must factor it in.The 77 tour only had Borg and Vilas at Montecarlo, but look at the players that played the 16 men draws:
Connors,Laver,Rosewall,Panatta,Orantes,Nastase,Kodes,Okker,Fibal,Solomon,Stockton,Drysdale,Alexander,Cox,Gerulaitis,Barazutti among others...it was so great that it even had Borg and Vilas playing in one of the finals...rounding it up¡¡¡

I know, but if Bjorn and Guillermo had played Dallas in 1977, how good would that have been, Kiki! :)
 
I know, but if Bjorn and Guillermo had played Dallas in 1977, how good would that have been, Kiki! :)

No doubt...but I still think Jimmy´d have won it.

Stockton was exceptional that year.rounding it up with his victory over Borg at FH, after beating Connors in a classic final at phily

Good old days¡¡
 
No doubt...but I still think Jimmy´d have won it.

Stockton was exceptional that year.rounding it up with his victory over Borg at FH, after beating Connors in a classic final at phily

Good old days¡¡
:-?

Stockton was a good player, semi-finalist at Slam events, semis Wimbledon 74, and the French one year. He beat Jimmy in Philadelphia 1977 and was runner up to Jimmy at WCT Dallas the same year.77 was a good year for him.
The good old days indeed, Kiki.
 
Stockton beat Orantes, a much accomplished CC at RG the year he reached the semis ( lost to Vilas).he also defeated nastase at the 74 Wimbledon, much to general surprise.Very good on any fast court.
 
I'd go with the '80 Volvo Masters over the 1980. WCT Finals. They were both big tourneys and far more important the AO, but the Volvo Masters was viewed as the bigger event, with all the top 4 playing it.

Borg beat Lendl in the final before 18,000 at MSG. A Borg-McEnroe match at the Masters drew 19,000+.

The 1980 Volvo Masters (A YEC played in Jan. 81) drew the following players:
Bjorn Borg
John McEnroe
Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Gene Mayer
Harold Solomon
Guillermo Vilas
Jose Luis Clerc

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Volvo_Masters_-_Singles


The 1980 WCT Finals had the following players. Borg didn't play it and overall the Volvo tourney had a deeper field. Connors beat McEnroe in the final.:
John McEnroe
Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Vijay Amritraj
Heinz Gunthardt
Johan Kriek
John Sadri
Bill Scanlon

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_World_Championship_Tennis_Finals_–_Singles
 
What about continuing with Masters vs Grand Slam Cups

A lot of people devalue the Grand Slam cups....but the fact is that they were very hotly contested events with very deep fields - 5 set matches in the semi's and finals.....why not continue the thread replacing the WCT finals with the Grand Slam cup starting 1990? I know the ATP World championships (what the Masters was called in the 1990's) had more prestige....but where they actually better events in terms of competition and level of play - possibly in most years/but every year?
 
A lot of people devalue the Grand Slam cups....but the fact is that they were very hotly contested events with very deep fields - 5 set matches in the semi's and finals.....why not continue the thread replacing the WCT finals with the Grand Slam cup starting 1990? I know the ATP World championships (what the Masters was called in the 1990's) had more prestige....but where they actually better events in terms of competition and level of play - possibly in most years/but every year?

I would agree only that GS Cup lasted very shortly
But their playing sistem was similar to Dallas
 
I'd go with the '80 Volvo Masters over the 1980. WCT Finals. They were both big tourneys and far more important the AO, but the Volvo Masters was viewed as the bigger event, with all the top 4 playing it.

Borg beat Lendl in the final before 18,000 at MSG. A Borg-McEnroe match at the Masters drew 19,000+.

The 1980 Volvo Masters (A YEC played in Jan. 81) drew the following players:
Bjorn Borg
John McEnroe
Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Gene Mayer
Harold Solomon
Guillermo Vilas
Jose Luis Clerc

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Volvo_Masters_-_Singles


The 1980 WCT Finals had the following players. Borg didn't play it and overall the Volvo tourney had a deeper field. Connors beat McEnroe in the final.:
John McEnroe
Jimmy Connors
Ivan Lendl
Vijay Amritraj
Heinz Gunthardt
Johan Kriek
John Sadri
Bill Scanlon

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_World_Championship_Tennis_Finals_–_Singles

Connirs vs Mac was far better than Borg vs Lendl
Nice mentioning Gunthardt, a great player with too many injuries trouble
 
Connirs vs Mac was far better than Borg vs Lendl
Nice mentioning Gunthardt, a great player with too many injuries trouble

Quality of the final? Yes, I agree, because Borg blew out Lendl, but far as depth and prestige, the Volvo Masters has to be ahead of the 1980 WCT Finals. Overall, the Volvo Masters was a bigger tourney. You had Borg, Connors, McEnroe and Lendl, with a stellar Connors-Borg SF at MSG. McEnroe lost to Clerc, Borg and Mayer that tournament, so he didn't make the semifinals. Top 4 trumps top 3, since Borg did not even play the WCT finals. It had more prize money and bigger crowds. In addition, from players 1-8, I'd put that Volvo field ahead of the WCT that year.
 
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The two Rosewall - Laver WCT matches were some of the best in history. Had some of the best TV ratings ever, too.
 
1987: Mecir beats mc Enroe at Dallas and Lendl anihilates Wilander at New York.Close one, but the general quality of play was superior at Dallas, so WCT takes it all

That's a very difficult statement to understand. Did you watch those matches? Mecir played like his usual solid self at the time. But McEnroe didn't; he made way too many unforced errors in that final. He later said he was hindered by a hip injury.
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-04-13/sports/sp-434_1_john-mcenroe

The Lendl-Wilander final was certainly much better quality tennis. It wasn't Wilander playing bad, but Lendl playing flawless tennis. He said after the match that it might have been the best he played all year. I thought it was the best I ever saw him play.
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-12-08/sports/sp-27403_1_ivan-lendl

It's crazy to say that the Dallas final was better quality.
 
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