Best Instructional Video on Kick and Slice Serves

#1
Does anybody know of a video that gives a good, detailed explanation and demonstration of the Kick and Slice serves?

For reference, I really liked Nick Bollettieri / Pat Dougherty's "Sonic Serve" for a detailed explanation of the serve and learned much from this (and still refer back to it all the time). But he didn't go over the Kick or Slice serves.

Doesn't have to be a You Tube video. Doesn't have to be free. I'm willing to pay for good instruction.

Thanks in advance.
 
#12
lol, “salamisteam”

for me the best slice vid was peter freeman’s “skip the rock” progression.
For me too.

I liked the japanese video for general serving and top spin... I think it was this one:

I liked also some simple concepts like hitting a nail to the ceiling or follow-thru along the baseline etc, let the ball drop before you hit etc, that I've picked up in various videos.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#13
For me too.

I liked the japanese video for general serving and top spin... I think it was this one:

I liked also some simple concepts like hitting a nail to the ceiling or follow-thru along the baseline etc, let the ball drop before you hit etc, that I've picked up in various videos.
some good nuggets in there...
but can't get past the game show muzak,
and the yoda-like commentary, eg. "far the impact point, Will avoid to cross", (which requires my brain to periodically translate)

[edit] tweener section has some good progressions :)
 
D

Deleted member 23235

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#25
Thanks. Have you tried the videos he sells? If the instruction is good, it's just what I'm looking for.
i haven't.
that 3 part vid was enough for me to get it.
now just need 10k reps of tossing in the right location.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

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#26
I like FYB lessons on the kick serve. Unfortunately, he takes about 30 minutes and numerous videos to make a 5 minute explanation. Macci-esque. I think this is the last of his kick serve progression videos.

i can't stand fyb for exactly the reasons you stated.
probably the right speed for the complete beginner that needs to be spoon fed, in tiny chunks..
 
#27
i can't stand fyb for exactly the reasons you stated.
probably the right speed for the complete beginner that needs to be spoon fed, in tiny chunks..
I think you're right. His lessons are for beginners and those who have never thought much about technique. But, there some nuggets of good info for those with a lot of knowledge about technique if they are willing to sit through it. What I like about that last video is that he demonstrates that you don't have to take a huge swing at the ball with all kinds of jumping, grunting, twisting, etc., in order to hit an effective kicker.
 
#28
Is there anything in particular that is vexing you?

J
I have a good flat serve. My slice is OK, but I'll look at the video NYtennis provided for tips on that.

But I have no kick serve to speak of. I can do the "rainbow" serve Brent Abel teaches. But when I try to add any pace, I lose the "rainbow" (should I just eat more skittles?).

Any tips on a good kick serve?
 
#30
Video with Kevin Garlington (kick) and Pete Freeman (slice):


(search for part 2&3 as well)

key for me was toss closer to the baseline, vs. closer to the net (which is ideal for a flat serve)
Love Pete's approach on this. His slice is very effective but is a little bit different than others. Some between the Slazenstein "carve slice" and the conventional slice. For the later, post-contact pronation is very evident. Not so for the "carve slice". However, upon close inspectin, you will see that there really is pronation on all 3 of these variations. It's just a little bit harder to see the pronation on the Salzenstein slice and the Freemen slice.
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#31
I have a good flat serve. My slice is OK, but I'll look at the video NYtennis provided for tips on that.

But I have no kick serve to speak of. I can do the "rainbow" serve Brent Abel teaches. But when I try to add any pace, I lose the "rainbow" (should I just eat more skittles?).

Any tips on a good kick serve?
Yea, lemme think this through.

I assume you are using a conti grip and grasp the basic concept of putting spin on the ball.

First of all, realize that you are going to contact the ball with the racquet still going UP, that means at contact the buttcap is going to be pointing the same direction as your nipples and the tip of the racquet will be pointing behind your back. The racquet won't be exactly parallel to the ground, but pretty close to it with the tip slightly above the buttcap. The strings will be facing the net.

This means you have to stay sideways as long as possible. Because you are used to hitting a flat and slice I assume this will be the hardest part for you, and you will probably need video or coaching.

Now for basic topspin toss the ball straight in front of you just inside the baseline and pretend you are throwing your racquet at the side fence. It's a weird sensation, you kind of pronate first and swing second, it will feel like you are swinging the racquet directly over your head. Imagine taking the leading edge of your racquet and drawing a sad face across the back of the ball.

For a true kick it feels like you pronate the racquet even more so in the drop position the tip crosses your spine and almost comes across the baseline and you throw the racquet up the inside of the ball towards the back curtain.

Go on an empty court and fool with it and don't focus on where the ball goes. Start slowly looping them high over the net.

Let me know if it helps. I can make a video if you want.

J
 
D

Deleted member 23235

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#32
...
This means you have to stay sideways as long as possible. Because you are used to hitting a flat and slice I assume this will be the hardest part for you, and you will probably need video or coaching.
...
#1 reason i couldn't stay sideways for the slice or kick, was because i was still tossing "out in front" for my flat serve.
best way i learned to stop doing that... was start on my knee(s) (sideways) - if i toss out in front, i would fall over
that said, *most* folks to whom i give this advice... won't do it (ie. no padding, it's uncomfortable, hard to get up, etc...)... and say, "yeah, i got the gist"... but because the feeling of tossing "out in front" is so ingrained, they still continue to do it..
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#33
#1 reason i couldn't stay sideways for the slice or kick, was because i was still tossing "out in front" for my flat serve.
best way i learned to stop doing that... was start on my knee(s) (sideways) - if i toss out in front, i would fall over
that said, *most* folks to whom i give this advice... won't do it (ie. no padding, it's uncomfortable, hard to get up, etc...)... and say, "yeah, i got the gist"... but because the feeling of tossing "out in front" is so ingrained, they still continue to do it..
By out in front, you mean into the court?

J
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#35
yes, toss into the court (toward the net)...
slice or kick, toss (for me) is more toward the baseline
Yea, it's hard to learn a kick while tossing into the court but to develop a high level kick you'll have to toss into the court. As far as slice I tell myself the higher and further into the court I can hit the ball, the better my angle will be so I put it as far into the court as I can and just get up after it.

J
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#36
Go on an empty court and fool with it and don't focus on where the ball goes. Start slowly looping them high over the net.
This is how I learned the kick as a teenager, takes a while to get the feel, but then eventually there is an "aha" moment. Ping pong also helped to intuitively feel how to impart certain kinds of spin onto a ball, i.e. I have somewhat of a "kick serve" in ping pong (which I learned before tennis), which I then just somewhat translated to a larger racket and larger swing for tennis.

I actually wonder if trying it first with a good ping pong paddle/ball would make it easier for folks to get the hang of the "7 to 1 o-clock" (insert your favorite saying) motion. Food for thought...
 
D

Deleted member 23235

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#38
Yea, it's hard to learn a kick while tossing into the court but to develop a high level kick you'll have to toss into the court. As far as slice I tell myself the higher and further into the court I can hit the ball, the better my angle will be so I put it as far into the court as I can and just get up after it.

J
Especially if following it towards the net with a S&V. Edberg is good model for this, IMHO.
100% agree... just saying that relative to a flat serve, the toss/contact for a kicker is less into the court.
my best kickers are contacted into the court, at almost a full stretch, throwing my body and racquet up and into the contact...
 

J011yroger

Talk Tennis Guru
#39
Especially if following it towards the net with a S&V. Edberg is good model for this, IMHO.
Fed too, ******* tosses 12"+ into the court on his second, but you gotta get your hips and shoulders into the court before you swing or you won't get sufficient spin.

J
 
#40
#1 reason i couldn't stay sideways for the slice or kick, was because i was still tossing "out in front" for my flat serve.
best way i learned to stop doing that... was start on my knee(s) (sideways) - if i toss out in front, i would fall over
that said, *most* folks to whom i give this advice... won't do it (ie. no padding, it's uncomfortable, hard to get up, etc...)... and say, "yeah, i got the gist"... but because the feeling of tossing "out in front" is so ingrained, they still continue to do it..
Your toss is not the issue, in my view. You have virtually no upper body UBR in your serve at all. It's all arm. If you turn and tilt your upper body in the set up, you will be in the correct posture to hit whatever kind of serve you want (from the same toss and posture), and be able to generate much more racquet head speed employing the kinetic chain (like a forehand), in your upswing.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

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#41
Your toss is not the issue, in my view. You have virtually no upper body UBR in your serve at all. It's all arm. If you turn and tilt your upper body in the set up, you will be in the correct posture to hit whatever kind of serve you want (from the same toss and posture), and be able to generate much more racquet head speed employing the kinetic chain (like a forehand), in your upswing.
yup work in progress...
imo, my inconsistent toss is the key... so i end up doing an abbreviated setup (particularly under pressure)
this summer (and this next 2018), i plan to work on:
* "elbow the enemy" which will also turn my upper body
* drop my right shoulder (gets me more into that javelin throw pose, currently my shoulders are more horizontal)
i was getting the feel for the new service motion, but it's not consistent, and zero consistency, and i'm still confusing old vs. new.
thx for the feedback.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#44
Your toss is not the issue, in my view. You have virtually no upper body UBR in your serve at all. It's all arm. If you turn and tilt your upper body in the set up, you will be in the correct posture to hit whatever kind of serve you want (from the same toss and posture), and be able to generate much more racquet head speed employing the kinetic chain (like a forehand), in your upswing.
Perhaps I am not understanding you, but most elite servers are more sideways on a kicker.
i think he means that with a turn and tilt of my upper body, presuming a matching toss, i can choose to hit flat, slice, top, kick... (i'd still be more sideways on the kicker)... but the "start point" (trophy pose), should still be the same

alternatively... i could learn to adjust my contact point under the "same" (similar) toss
 
#45
yup work in progress...
imo, my inconsistent toss is the key... so i end up doing an abbreviated setup (particularly under pressure)
this summer (and this next 2018), i plan to work on:
* "elbow the enemy" which will also turn my upper body
* drop my right shoulder (gets me more into that javelin throw pose, currently my shoulders are more horizontal)
i was getting the feel for the new service motion, but it's not consistent, and zero consistency, and i'm still confusing old vs. new.
thx for the feedback.
Neither your toss nor your abbreviated windup prevents turn and tilt of your upper body or a kick serve. Pat Rafter. :D The easiest most effective instruction I know of to acheive a good turn and tilt is to slide your left hip toward the right net post as you toss the ball. I would also suggest slowing down your motion from the start and accelerate more gradually.
 
#46
I have a good flat serve. My slice is OK, but I'll look at the video NYtennis provided for tips on that.

But I have no kick serve to speak of. I can do the "rainbow" serve Brent Abel teaches. But when I try to add any pace, I lose the "rainbow" (should I just eat more skittles?).

Any tips on a good kick serve?
To add pace to my kick serve the toss has to be above my fore head and I have to get underneath the ball to get the full effect of "brushing up and out" ( 8-2 o'clock)
 
#47
Yea, lemme think this through.

I assume you are using a conti grip and grasp the basic concept of putting spin on the ball.

First of all, realize that you are going to contact the ball with the racquet still going UP, that means at contact the buttcap is going to be pointing the same direction as your nipples and the tip of the racquet will be pointing behind your back. The racquet won't be exactly parallel to the ground, but pretty close to it with the tip slightly above the buttcap. The strings will be facing the net.

This means you have to stay sideways as long as possible. Because you are used to hitting a flat and slice I assume this will be the hardest part for you, and you will probably need video or coaching.

Now for basic topspin toss the ball straight in front of you just inside the baseline and pretend you are throwing your racquet at the side fence. It's a weird sensation, you kind of pronate first and swing second, it will feel like you are swinging the racquet directly over your head. Imagine taking the leading edge of your racquet and drawing a sad face across the back of the ball.

For a true kick it feels like you pronate the racquet even more so in the drop position the tip crosses your spine and almost comes across the baseline and you throw the racquet up the inside of the ball towards the back curtain.

Go on an empty court and fool with it and don't focus on where the ball goes. Start slowly looping them high over the net.

Let me know if it helps. I can make a video if you want.

J
I’ll try it, thanks
 
#48
I like looking at videos of Raonic hitting kick serves to learn the basic toss location and racquet path.

Here's one in slow motion. Notice the left toss position and the up and across motion at contact. The contact position is lower than for a flat serve as the racquet needs to have more of a vertical motion at contact.

 
S

santiago_rios

Guest
#50

I like this kickserve video, packs a good punch for only 2 minutes.

The Peter Freeman Slice Serve videos are excellent, and the Naomi Totke kick serve video, NYTA has already posted them.

This video was good and simple for a beginner, gives you a great feel for the ball and the work to put on it to get a heavy swing, and makes it seem easy and fun.
 
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