Best natural gut currently

Sardines

Professional
Going to try VS Touch again with a 10% pre-stretch this week...

I want to feel the magic!
Haha well 10% is my number. Unfortunately it's quite individual. My stringer did say he thinks Luxilon is a soft string, but just not as elastic, especially the 1.25. Feelwise, I think it's not stiff at all, but it is definitely showing to be lower powered at the same tension as VS. So that makes sense. Good luck.
 

aaron_h27

Professional
Haha well 10% is my number. Unfortunately it's quite individual. My stringer did say he thinks Luxilon is a soft string, but just not as elastic, especially the 1.25. Feelwise, I think it's not stiff at all, but it is definitely showing to be lower powered at the same tension as VS. So that makes sense. Good luck.
10% is quite common amongst pros.

There was a theory going around that Luxilon gut was factory pre-stretched.
 

Mirko

New User
Going to try VS Touch again with a 10% pre-stretch this week...

I want to feel the magic!
I play with Lux gut, but also order Vs Touch in 1.35 to try. I played already with Vs Touch but in 1.30. The feel is better but it has more power and less control.
Now I hope in my new head gravity mp 16/20 with 1.35 Vs touch the power will be ok. Will try it the nex weeks
 

Arak

Professional
I play with Lux gut, but also order Vs Touch in 1.35 to try. I played already with Vs Touch but in 1.30. The feel is better but it has more power and less control.
Now I hope in my new head gravity mp 16/20 with 1.35 Vs touch the power will be ok. Will try it the nex weeks
Can’t you increase tension for better control?
 

Mirko

New User
Even with increased tension Vs 1.30 has more power and less control then Lux gut 1.30. That why I will try the Vs 1.35 and hope to get not so much power with increased tension from it.
 

aaron_h27

Professional
Even with increased tension Vs 1.30 has more power and less control then Lux gut 1.30. That why I will try the Vs 1.35 and hope to get not so much power with increased tension from it.
Try it and let us know, VS 1.35 gauge is too muted for me personally and makes my racket slightly head heavier than my racket with Lux Gut 1.30. Decent control though, but I still prefer Lux 1.30.

I feel like the Wilson gut may be the best of both worlds. Hmm
 

aaron_h27

Professional
@aaron_h27 - .05 mm of thickness makes your racket head heavy enough to feel? You should be in the Guiness Book for best feel ever!
Yes it's almost 3 grams in weight difference between the gauges, 3 grams in the head is noticeable. I'm a high level player and I notice these things. Not sure the reason for your backhanded comment.
 

Dragan

Semi-Pro
@aaron_h27 - .05 mm of thickness makes your racket head heavy enough to feel? You should be in the Guiness Book for best feel ever!
Do the measurement, then judge :)

The impact of string bed weight is not that negligible. When I string my Yonex DR 98 with a poly string (Yonex PTP 125) the swing-weight is 331. The same racquet strung with 1.30mm VS natural gut has the swing-weight of 337. Even I can notice a slight difference in maneuverability, although I'm not a high-level player.
 

Sardines

Professional
@aaron_h27 - .05 mm of thickness makes your racket head heavy enough to feel? You should be in the Guiness Book for best feel ever!
I have 3 racquets for gut, each modded to be350 SW and 7 pts HL for Tonic+'s variable under 1.35mm, 16 and 17g respectively, with PRCW 18g crosses. With frame variance of Yonex around 3-4g, string weight variance is about 1.5-4g, with Tonic+ being the largest variance. 2-3g of weight change in the hoop is noticeable, and for some significantly so.
 

Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
@aaron_h27 @Sardines @Dragan - enough to say it affects your play? Now, I have added 3 grams to a racket at the 12 o'clock and that was, shall we say, taxing after about 30 minutes. But 3 grams over an entire string bed? I still don't think it would affect your play. I think we've entered the Overthinking Zone.

And to @aaron_h27 - you do realize that Wilson natural gut was made by Babolat and then Luxilon?

But hey, whatever gets you through the night fellas..... :)
 

Dragan

Semi-Pro
@aaron_h27 @Sardines @Dragan - enough to say it affects your play? Now, I have added 3 grams to a racket at the 12 o'clock and that was, shall we say, taxing after about 30 minutes. But 3 grams over an entire string bed? I still don't think it would affect your play. I think we've entered the Overthinking Zone.
Switching between natural gut and poly (or vice versa) is a very drastic change by itself, so different swing weight is just a minor aspect (everything changes - power level, feel, launch angle, spin/depth...). It just takes me 10-15 minutes to get used to a different setup, but because I primarily play with natural gut, switching from higher to lower swing weight is not a big deal.

Not sure that differences in the natural gut gauges would affect my play that much, though, but 3-4 grams heavier stringbed may be taxing on the long run (e.g. over the course of 2 hours) if you typically play with thinner gauge and switch to thicker.
 
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Rabbit

G.O.A.T.
@Dragan - I was 100% with you until your last statement. I have been playing for nigh on to 50 years at my highest rating I played 5.0. I have never, at any age, seen myself physically tire because I went from 17 gauge to 16, not with natural gut, not with poly, not with synthetic gut. Case in point, I recently changed my mains from 18 gauge synthetic to 17 gauge. Why? Because I wanted more durability in my string bed. That was the only reason. The change was from 1.15 to 1.22 mm's. I'm still swinging away and I'll guarantee that I could go to 1.30 and not miss a lick over 3 sets.
 

Dragan

Semi-Pro
@Rabbit - Fair enough... I said that I’m not sure it would affect my play, either, but I’m not a high-level player (not that sensitive).
 

aaron_h27

Professional
@aaron_h27 @Sardines @Dragan - enough to say it affects your play? Now, I have added 3 grams to a racket at the 12 o'clock and that was, shall we say, taxing after about 30 minutes. But 3 grams over an entire string bed? I still don't think it would affect your play. I think we've entered the Overthinking Zone.

And to @aaron_h27 - you do realize that Wilson natural gut was made by Babolat and then Luxilon?

But hey, whatever gets you through the night fellas..... :)
Leave your negativity for someone else, I originally said I noticed 1.35 gauge made my racket SLIGHTLY head heavier, I didn't say it was an astronomical difference, but enough to notice. I didn't say anything about it affecting my play, other than the STRING itself. I prefer Luxilon's gut and it just so happens to not be as heavy as 1.35 VS Touch while offering more control. I've been swapping out the two rackets to test both strings so I can immediately feel the difference. You're making a big deal out of it not us.
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
The BEST natural gut currently is the one that my arm says I can play with.
So for me, Babolat VS is the best and Lux/new Wilson are the worst.
I use gut mains for much needed arm comfort, touch and added power in gut/poly setup.
Lux gut is the stiffest, lowest-powered, harsh gut I've ever used.
It makes me wonder if it is even really all natural gut. It doesn't even fray. It's like a linebacker, who even after 4 quarters of football, doesn't sweat.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
The BEST natural gut currently is the one that my arm says I can play with.
So for me, Babolat VS is the best and Lux/new Wilson are the worst.
I use gut mains for much needed arm comfort, touch and added power in gut/poly setup.
Lux gut is the stiffest, lowest-powered, harsh gut I've ever used.
It makes me wonder if it is even really all natural gut. It doesn't even fray. It's like a linebacker, who even after 4 quarters of football, doesn't sweat.
The Wilson gut is not the same as the Luxilon gut as the Luxilon has a different coating that makes it more stiff and more durable. To me, it seems like Luxilon gut is specifically made to be used as a cross with Luxilon poly mains and that is their main target market. It will not fray till the coating wears off.

The Wilson gut actually feels softer and less crisp than VS and some players like it better especially if they switched to fullbed gut because of arm injury issues. I personally like the crisper feel and slightly more power of VS better than the Wilson gut but I would say that the differences are not that great. Luxilon gut feels totally different and again some players may like it better - almost like a multi rather than a natural gut.
 

Frankc

Professional
When frames were a bit smaller and string patterns were more dense, the best natural gut was revered for a remarkably dynamic response that cupped the ball and supplied very easy free power for an able player . (And joint protection...) As one ex Davis Cupper( He had just single handedly dismantled two of the best Open ALTA players in a doubles match... with precision) said to me, "synthetic is synthetic and natural gut is natural gut... It really is that simple..."

To hear a discussion of "stiffer and more durable and natural gut" is just very different... For some(not all obviously), those three words should not be in the same paragraph... Unless natural gut has changed ... It has...
 
The Wilson gut is not the same as the Luxilon gut as the Luxilon has a different coating that makes it more stiff and more durable. To me, it seems like Luxilon gut is specifically made to be used as a cross with Luxilon poly mains and that is their main target market. It will not fray till the coating wears off.

The Wilson gut actually feels softer and less crisp than VS and some players like it better especially if they switched to fullbed gut because of arm injury issues. I personally like the crisper feel and slightly more power of VS better than the Wilson gut but I would say that the differences are not that great. Luxilon gut feels totally different and again some players may like it better - almost like a multi rather than a natural gut.
Lux is very multi-like in its feeling. Even when I wear through the coating the gut feels stiff and dried out like an expired product. It does give more spin than other gut/poly combos to be fair. I’m sure it appeals to players that want to use gut mains and poly crosses while retaining more of the poly characteristics than other guts.
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
The Wilson gut is not the same as the Luxilon gut as the Luxilon has a different coating that makes it more stiff and more durable. To me, it seems like Luxilon gut is specifically made to be used as a cross with Luxilon poly mains and that is their main target market. It will not fray till the coating wears off.

The Wilson gut actually feels softer and less crisp than VS and some players like it better especially if they switched to fullbed gut because of arm injury issues. I personally like the crisper feel and slightly more power of VS better than the Wilson gut but I would say that the differences are not that great. Luxilon gut feels totally different and again some players may like it better - almost like a multi rather than a natural gut.
My arm has had no problems with VS. I've used the same racket, tension and poly cross with VS mains without any significant arm issues for several years. During the last Black Friday sale, I picked up some Wilson gut and I could tell right away it was stiffer with less power. I had to swing a little harder to generate the same pace on serves and groundstrokes.

After a month of using Wilson gut mains, I started getting serious wrist, elbow and shoulder pain. After another month, I could not even grip the racket on serves and volleys. I had to stop playing altogether for a few weeks.

Then I went back to my trusty old VS. More power, feel and definitely more comfort. Others may have different experiences but I have to listen to what my hypersensitive arm tells me. I dread going back to doctors, acupuncturists and physical therapists.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
@FogniShikori
Did you have arm issues with Wilson gut or Luxilon gut? It was not clear from your posts as in the earlier post you seeemd to be talking about Luxilon gut and in your last post, you specifically reference Wilson gut. Wilson owns Luxilon, but the gut branded as Luxilon is very different from the Wilson gut. Just wanted to make sure we are talking about the same product.

Also, what tension are you stringing at and on what racquet? I like VS 17 and played with it as a full bed on a Pure Strike Tour Gen 1 for many years. It was great up to about 58 lbs on that racquet, but got increasingly harsh higher than that. On other flexible racquets, I’ve played with VS strung in the mid-sixties with no issues. I have a sensitive elbow and I think VS is the best gut out there for me, but I think the Wilson-branded gut is very close to it. I now hybrid VS with poly on a Gen3 Pure Stirke Tour at 48/45 lbs and since it is more comfortable than the Gen 1, I don’t need to use full bed gut anymore.
 

aaron_h27

Professional
The Wilson gut is not the same as the Luxilon gut as the Luxilon has a different coating that makes it more stiff and more durable. To me, it seems like Luxilon gut is specifically made to be used as a cross with Luxilon poly mains and that is their main target market. It will not fray till the coating wears off.

The Wilson gut actually feels softer and less crisp than VS and some players like it better especially if they switched to fullbed gut because of arm injury issues. I personally like the crisper feel and slightly more power of VS better than the Wilson gut but I would say that the differences are not that great. Luxilon gut feels totally different and again some players may like it better - almost like a multi rather than a natural gut.
So VS is crisper and more powerful than Wilson eh?

I may prefer Wilson's gut if i can get softness and lower power than VS.

I'm excited to try. I like Luxilon b/c of the control but if Wilson offers a similar level of control I will be happy
 

mctennis

Legend
I find that the Babolat gut does not have very good feel and feedback. Ever since they stared using the BT7 in their strings the Babalat gut stings have lost that true gut feeling. Sort of stiff and less control using the Babolat gut. I have been using gut strings in my racquets for over 30+ years.
 

Mirko

New User
Ok, I played with VS 1.35 in the mains for some hours now. Cross I put Cream 1.28.
Compared to lux gut:

First what I like more with VS - it is softer then Lux and has better feel.
What I do not like still in 1.35 and string 3-4 lbs higher then Lux gut in 1.30: VS has more power und less control.
For me VS ist Not predictable. Sometimes I have to much power, sometimes not. I can't trust the string to produce the same results, when I hit the same shot.
Lux gut is for me very predictable from the first to the last hit. And that is the reason to stay with it.

I will play some more hours with the Vs but I do not thing I will get other results. Maybe I will try some other crosses with it
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
@FogniShikori
Did you have arm issues with Wilson gut or Luxilon gut? It was not clear from your posts as in the earlier post you seeemd to be talking about Luxilon gut and in your last post, you specifically reference Wilson gut. Wilson owns Luxilon, but the gut branded as Luxilon is very different from the Wilson gut. Just wanted to make sure we are talking about the same product.

Also, what tension are you stringing at and on what racquet? I like VS 17 and played with it as a full bed on a Pure Strike Tour Gen 1 for many years. It was great up to about 58 lbs on that racquet, but got increasingly harsh higher than that. On other flexible racquets, I’ve played with VS strung in the mid-sixties with no issues. I have a sensitive elbow and I think VS is the best gut out there for me, but I think the Wilson-branded gut is very close to it. I now hybrid VS with poly on a Gen3 Pure Stirke Tour at 48/45 lbs and since it is more comfortable than the Gen 1, I don’t need to use full bed gut anymore.
I really liked Wilson gut (white packaging) which I believe was Babolat gut.
I have arm issues with Wilson gut (red packaging) which I heard is Lux gut.
My setup is gut/Yonex poly tour pro 1.20, usually 57/52 in a Microgel Radical OS.
I went down 2 lbs with Wilson gut (red packaging) to 55/52 which helped but still harsher than VS/poly at 57/52.
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
I find that the Babolat gut does not have very good feel and feedback. Ever since they stared using the BT7 in their strings the Babalat gut stings have lost that true gut feeling. Sort of stiff and less control using the Babolat gut. I have been using gut strings in my racquets for over 30+ years.
Pre-BT7 was 21 strands and BT7 is only 7. BT7 does not feel as great as pre-BT7 for sure.
But for me, it's still better than Wilson, Lux, KLIP in terms of feel, comfort and power.
Also VS quality control is outstanding. I've never had one snap on me and gauge consistency is great.
Unfortunately the days of 21 strands have gone and I don't think they are coming back.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
I really liked Wilson gut (white packaging) which I believe was Babolat gut.
I have arm issues with Wilson gut (red packaging) which I heard is Lux gut.
My setup is gut/Yonex poly tour pro 1.20, usually 57/52 in a Microgel Radical OS.
I went down 2 lbs with Wilson gut (red packaging) to 55/52 which helped but still harsher than VS/poly at 57/52.
You didn’t mention earlier that you are playing a gut/poly hybrid and not full-bed gut. The poly will go dead within 12-15 hours. If you don’t cut it out after that, you have to swing harder and harder to get power and since the poly has lost a lot of its elastic property, you have more impact going to your arm and elbow. It is possible that since the Wilson has less power and bite than the VS, you have to swing even harder with it once the poly goes dead. I would advise cutting out the poly within 15 hours if you are not a string breaker and are having arm issues or you could try playing full-bed gut at higher tensions. On an OS racquet, you should be able to play VS in the low-mid Sixties.

My wrist gets sore if I play with VS/ALU Power after 7-8 hours even at 48/45 lbs while in the beginning it feels great with very good comfort. It has more to do with the ALU Power going dead than any problem with the VS. A few years ago, I could play VS full-bed with no comfort issues and very little loss of tension for more than 20 hours till I broke it.
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
Ok, I played with VS 1.35 in the mains for some hours now. Cross I put Cream 1.28.
Compared to lux gut:

First what I like more with VS - it is softer then Lux and has better feel.
What I do not like still in 1.35 and string 3-4 lbs higher then Lux gut in 1.30: VS has more power und less control.
For me VS ist Not predictable. Sometimes I have to much power, sometimes not. I can't trust the string to produce the same results, when I hit the same shot.
Lux gut is for me very predictable from the first to the last hit. And that is the reason to stay with it.

I will play some more hours with the Vs but I do not thing I will get other results. Maybe I will try some other crosses with it
I tried VS/Cream and it was just meh. Too gummy, not much control or spin.
VS/YPTP 1.20 gives me noticeably better control, feel and spin.
YPTP 1.20 is a low/mid powered, control poly that tames VS power well. It's also comfortable, not as comfortable as Cream, but close.
 

Mirko

New User
I tried VS/Cream and it was just meh. Too gummy, not much control or spin.
VS/YPTP 1.20 gives me noticeably better control, feel and spin.
YPTP 1.20 is a low/mid powered, control poly that tames VS power well. It's also comfortable, not as comfortable as Cream, but close.
Yea, I know YPTP. I have a half set of it now. May be I will try it with the VS. But now I put on one racquet the Vs with revolve 1.25 cross and on the second lux gut with revolve to compare. Then I will try 1-2 different crosses too.
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
Yea, I know YPTP. I have a half set of it now. May be I will try it with the VS. But now I put on one racquet the Vs with revolve 1.25 cross and on the second lux gut with revolve to compare. Then I will try 1-2 different crosses too.
I tried VS/Revolve. The first outing is fantastic with awesome spin and good control.
The second outing, Revolve falls off a cliff and dies a dramatic death.
 

aaron_h27

Professional
Ok, I played with VS 1.35 in the mains for some hours now. Cross I put Cream 1.28.
Compared to lux gut:

First what I like more with VS - it is softer then Lux and has better feel.
What I do not like still in 1.35 and string 3-4 lbs higher then Lux gut in 1.30: VS has more power und less control.
For me VS ist Not predictable. Sometimes I have to much power, sometimes not. I can't trust the string to produce the same results, when I hit the same shot.
Lux gut is for me very predictable from the first to the last hit. And that is the reason to stay with it.

I will play some more hours with the Vs but I do not thing I will get other results. Maybe I will try some other crosses with it
Yes, me and you have literally the same exact experience. VS Touch just isn't a predictable hit at all, Luxilon offers much better control and predictability.

What racket are you using? string pattern?
 
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aaron_h27

Professional
I find that the Babolat gut does not have very good feel and feedback. Ever since they stared using the BT7 in their strings the Babalat gut stings have lost that true gut feeling. Sort of stiff and less control using the Babolat gut. I have been using gut strings in my racquets for over 30+ years.
Likewise, I don't find the feel & feedback that great either. Like I said before, it feels like an outdated string. Maybe it plays better in 18x20 or hybrids, but for full bed I found it meh. I don't see the hype
 

mctennis

Legend
Likewise, I don't find the feel & feedback that great either. Like I said before, it feels like an outdated string. Maybe it plays better in 18x20 or hybrids, but for full bed I found it meh. I don't see the hype
I tried it as a full bed, hybrids, and in an 18X20 , 16X20, 16X19 as well. Still not impressed. Not spending the money to try it again. I believe it is all because of the BT7 "technology" being used. Perhaps not. Babolat used to be the Gold Standard.
 

aaron_h27

Professional
I tried it as a full bed, hybrids, and in an 18X20 , 16X20, 16X19 as well. Still not impressed. Not spending the money to try it again. I believe it is all because of the BT7 "technology" being used. Perhaps not. Babolat used to be the Gold Standard.
Agree with you, it's a shame they messed with a good thing. Oh well. Luxilon & Wilson gut's can take our money :)
 

Arak

Professional
Guys I need some advice about tension. I just received a set of Wilson NG 16 to be strung full bed in a RF97A. I used to string Luxilon at 57 in a blade 18x20 but it felt a bit stiff. Never strung the RF with NG before hence the question. I was thinking to go a bit higher due to the more open pattern. Any recommendations? 59 maybe?
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
Guys I need some advice about tension. I just received a set of Wilson NG 16 to be strung full bed in a RF97A. I used to string Luxilon at 57 in a blade 18x20 but it felt a bit stiff. Never strung the RF with NG before hence the question. I was thinking to go a bit higher due to the more open pattern. Any recommendations? 59 maybe?
What strings did you usually use on the RF97 previously and at what tension? What did you not like with that old string job and what do you hope to get with the full-bed gut? It will be easier to make a recommendation if you provide this information as otherwise posters can give only generic advice.
 

Arak

Professional
What strings did you usually use on the RF97 previously and at what tension? What did you not like with that old string job and what do you hope to get with the full-bed gut? It will be easier to make a recommendation if you provide this information as otherwise posters can give only generic advice.
Hi there. I have been using mostly multifilaments. NXT at 57, NXT power and Rip control at 55. I’m not a string breaker so tensions tend to end up pretty low when I restring, about 44-45 as measured by RT. No specific purpose of using NG other than enjoying the gunshot sound when I hit the ball and the general feel.
 

aaron_h27

Professional
Finally got around to trying the wilson in the red packaging & it seems identical to Luxilon's gut, and nothing like VS at all.

There's definitely less coating, but the stings play very similar. I found Lux to have a tad bit better control at the same tension.
 

FogniShikori

Semi-Pro
You didn’t mention earlier that you are playing a gut/poly hybrid and not full-bed gut. The poly will go dead within 12-15 hours. If you don’t cut it out after that, you have to swing harder and harder to get power and since the poly has lost a lot of its elastic property, you have more impact going to your arm and elbow. It is possible that since the Wilson has less power and bite than the VS, you have to swing even harder with it once the poly goes dead. I would advise cutting out the poly within 15 hours if you are not a string breaker and are having arm issues or you could try playing full-bed gut at higher tensions. On an OS racquet, you should be able to play VS in the low-mid Sixties.

My wrist gets sore if I play with VS/ALU Power after 7-8 hours even at 48/45 lbs while in the beginning it feels great with very good comfort. It has more to do with the ALU Power going dead than any problem with the VS. A few years ago, I could play VS full-bed with no comfort issues and very little loss of tension for more than 20 hours till I broke it.
VS/poly usually lasts me 8-12 hours before VS either snaps or is about to snap. New Wilson gut seems to last significantly longer. VS/ALU is my dream setup with wicked spin, control and ball action. If my arm could handle it, I would use nothing else.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
VS/poly usually lasts me 8-12 hours before VS either snaps or is about to snap. New Wilson gut seems to last significantly longer. VS/ALU is my dream setup with wicked spin, control and ball action. If my arm could handle it, I would use nothing else.
I agree that VS/ALU Power is the best setup I’ve played with for about 4-5 hours. I can probably play with it for about 7-8 hours before it gets too harsh from the ALU going dead. Costs too much for me to use it and so, I’m continuing to use VS/HyperG which lasts twice as long for me.
 

Mirko

New User
I played with the VS 1.35 with some different crosses
(Revolve, rs Lyon, Tier one Black Knight 1.23, Kirschbaum Evolution...) I have to say I like the softness and the feel of the VS more then Lux gut.
What I found is, that VS will play very good if you put low powerd, control oriented string.
The combo VS/BK was the best of all I have tested.
Super control, explosive power and nice spin. The problem with this combo is that BK will go through the gut very fast.
For the players that want full gut I prefer Lux gut. Also if you want to play gut with soft, or medium soft poly Lux gut is also the better choice. VS will work very got with something low powerd and control oriented like Lux 4G, Kirschbaum max Power ...

The other think I noticed was that after 10 hours of play the VS plaed to sticky and didn't snap back and the spin was gone. Did someone else did the some experience with VS?
 
I played with the VS 1.35 with some different crosses
(Revolve, rs Lyon, Tier one Black Knight 1.23, Kirschbaum Evolution...) I have to say I like the softness and the feel of the VS more then Lux gut.
What I found is, that VS will play very good if you put low powerd, control oriented string.
The combo VS/BK was the best of all I have tested.
Super control, explosive power and nice spin. The problem with this combo is that BK will go through the gut very fast.
For the players that want full gut I prefer Lux gut. Also if you want to play gut with soft, or medium soft poly Lux gut is also the better choice. VS will work very got with something low powerd and control oriented like Lux 4G, Kirschbaum max Power ...

The other think I noticed was that after 10 hours of play the VS plaed to sticky and didn't snap back and the spin was gone. Did someone else did the some experience with VS?
you could try replacing Black Knight with Ghost Wire. That would offer similar playability with less cutting into the gut.
 
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