Best on Clay: Djokovic or Federer?
- Thread starter HoyaPride
- Start date
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
If Djokovic wins more RGs than Federer, then yes. Until such I time I can't say he's better on clay than Fed.
If they end up tied in FOs won then the obvious choice is Djokovic. For one he's been able to handle the King of Clay much, much better than Fed ever did. And he also has Rome and MC when Fed has neither.
If they end up tied in FOs won then the obvious choice is Djokovic. For one he's been able to handle the King of Clay much, much better than Fed ever did. And he also has Rome and MC when Fed has neither.
Tenez101
Banned
Fed was probably barred from becoming the most accomplished clay-courter in history by Nadal. Plus he has an RG title. Until Djokovic gets an RG title it's no contest really.
In terms of peak clay level, it's still Federer, even though Djokovic has had way more success against Nadal. Djokovic's one godmode clay season (2011) does not eclipse Fed's overall peak clay prowess 2005-2007.
In terms of peak clay level, it's still Federer, even though Djokovic has had way more success against Nadal. Djokovic's one godmode clay season (2011) does not eclipse Fed's overall peak clay prowess 2005-2007.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Or a nearly retired Kuerten with a bad hip.
Tenez101
Banned
Didn't say best clay-courter, just most accomplished. Fed made 5 RG finals, and probably would have won all of those those if not for Nadal, as clay-courters in this era are pretty weak outside Nadal.
Interesting that the measuring stick when comparing these two players is how they fared against Nadal, rather than their own H2H matchups against each other. If they end up tied, why would you look at that instead of their own match results? Just curious.
Both are great clay court players, IMO, who have been thwarted from having multiple Roland Garros titles by playing against the greatest clay courter of all time. Picking the better one is splitting hairs, but to date, Federer is certainly the more accomplished one.
Probably...if you want to be conservative, he would at least have 4 of them, IMO, possibly as many as 6 since he lost in the SF to Rafa once.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not clear cut. Their career stats and results are very close. On clay, Roger wins a higher % of his serve points & games than Novak. Novak has better stats for return points/games. For the 2 previous years, they have have been very close with both winning 54% of all of their clay points.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=mf&y=2012&s=1#
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Novak-Djokovic.aspx?t=mf&y=2012&s=1#
It appears that Roger has the edge on winning % on total clay games played for the past 2 years (2012-2013). For 2012, RF won 58.5% of claycourt games while ND won 57.5%. In looking at career stats, both have won 54% of all clay points but Novak has a bit of an edge for % of all claycourt games won.
Same thing if we look a % of clay matches won. Novak has won 78% of all his clay matches whereas Roger has won 77%. However, Roger's clay court performance was not very strong in his early years on the tour. He started hitting his stride in 2002 and started showing strong results at the FO by 2005.
OTOH, Nole was showing strong results on clay by 2006. If we drop off the early years and just consider the period from 2006 thru 2014 (current), then both Roger and Novak show an 81% win record on clay.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx?t=mf&y=2012&s=1#
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Novak-Djokovic.aspx?t=mf&y=2012&s=1#
It appears that Roger has the edge on winning % on total clay games played for the past 2 years (2012-2013). For 2012, RF won 58.5% of claycourt games while ND won 57.5%. In looking at career stats, both have won 54% of all clay points but Novak has a bit of an edge for % of all claycourt games won.
Same thing if we look a % of clay matches won. Novak has won 78% of all his clay matches whereas Roger has won 77%. However, Roger's clay court performance was not very strong in his early years on the tour. He started hitting his stride in 2002 and started showing strong results at the FO by 2005.
OTOH, Nole was showing strong results on clay by 2006. If we drop off the early years and just consider the period from 2006 thru 2014 (current), then both Roger and Novak show an 81% win record on clay.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
monfed
Banned
Well this is not a simple question. Fed was far n away the second best claycourter of his era. He handled everyone with consummate ease except one guy who basically doesn't let him hit a FH, if you just stick to the basics. It's ridiculous how much the matchup is in Nadal's favour and you could see that once Ralph lost, Fed clinched it. It was not so much about the surface but rather Fed's inability to handle a specific matchup. Fed in one of his interviews said " I don't have problem with clay rather I have a Nadal problem on clay".
Took care of Soderling though and quite comprehensively when there was massive pressure on him to win RG. So many past greats have crumbled where Fed succeeded.
In contrast, Djokovic handles Nadal much better than Fed ever has or will and in that Rome 11 match, Djokovic was literally toying with Nadal and the latter was hitting BH lobs to stay in the rally. :lol:
So the question boils down to what you value more - "Is Federer the better claycourter since he only lost to Nadal in his prime OR is Djokovic better than Fed on clay because he can beat Nadal on clay?"
I think you have to go with the former because otherwise you'd have to nullify RG records of the past greats since they didn't face Nadal. Why do you need to have a discussion at all if you're in the habit of ranking players by merely counting their titles? That's what wiki is for.
Took care of Soderling though and quite comprehensively when there was massive pressure on him to win RG. So many past greats have crumbled where Fed succeeded.
In contrast, Djokovic handles Nadal much better than Fed ever has or will and in that Rome 11 match, Djokovic was literally toying with Nadal and the latter was hitting BH lobs to stay in the rally. :lol:
So the question boils down to what you value more - "Is Federer the better claycourter since he only lost to Nadal in his prime OR is Djokovic better than Fed on clay because he can beat Nadal on clay?"
I think you have to go with the former because otherwise you'd have to nullify RG records of the past greats since they didn't face Nadal. Why do you need to have a discussion at all if you're in the habit of ranking players by merely counting their titles? That's what wiki is for.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
Good point, but im still gonna go with Fed for now... its only two more wins on clay...:wink:
Its just Djokovic figured out Nadal better than Fed did (or didn't, lol)
Djokovic is good enough to get far in every clay tournament like Fed was, but the difference is that the Djoker ACTUALLY has a good chance to score the upset against Nadal, unlike Fed back in his prime.
I think that Fed has had more success right now, he made like 33 finals or something as well...
monfed
Banned
Interesting. 4 scenarios for you -
1) Fed and Nole have 1 RG title each. Both won their titles without beating Rafael. Who's better?
2) Same as 1 but Nole beats Ralph in the RG final to win the career slam AND completes the career Rafailed slam? :lol:
3) Nole wins 2 RGs, 1 against Ralph 1 without, while Fed's stuck on 1.
4) Fred beats Ralph to clinch his 2nd RG :lol: and Nole finishes with 2 RGs.
Last edited:
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
1. Federer for now, we would have to wait and see his other clay results at retirement
2. Thats tough, one way im going Fed cause of overall better results, and the other Djoker cause he bet KOC at RG and 5 times against Nadal on clay. Impressive indeed.
3. Djokovic most likely, cant argue with 2 slams vs one, even if the other guy had 5 slam finals, or maybe you can(ITS TOO HARD!)
4. I think I would
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
Disagre. There will still be doubt if he wins one... this whole thread is because he has defeated nadal on clay the most (by 1 win). Fed still has the better overall success 33 or so clay finals.
But if he wins more than 2 then probably
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Correction: two wins.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
I meant out of any player... Gaudio had 3 wins
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
So typical of TT!
So Djokovic has a better career winning percentage, MUCH more success against Nadal on clay, more Clay Masters titles (and unlike Fed, has won Monte Carlo, Madrid, AND Rome), has a 1-1 record against Fed at RG.
And yet a very solid majority of folks on here anoint Fed the greater player because Fed can do no wrong.
I say all of this as a Fed fan by the way. Now on Grass, there is an obvious edge to Fed, and prime Fed was unbeatable on HC too (although Djokovic 2.0 is a top-5 all-time HC player).
But on clay, where consistency, endurance, and athleticism come into play, Djokovic has a slight edge.
So Djokovic has a better career winning percentage, MUCH more success against Nadal on clay, more Clay Masters titles (and unlike Fed, has won Monte Carlo, Madrid, AND Rome), has a 1-1 record against Fed at RG.
And yet a very solid majority of folks on here anoint Fed the greater player because Fed can do no wrong.
I say all of this as a Fed fan by the way. Now on Grass, there is an obvious edge to Fed, and prime Fed was unbeatable on HC too (although Djokovic 2.0 is a top-5 all-time HC player).
But on clay, where consistency, endurance, and athleticism come into play, Djokovic has a slight edge.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Take a look at my stats analysis in post #9. It took Roger a little bit longer on the pro tour to reach the top 10 and the top 3 than it took Novak. It took even longer for him to hit his stride on clay (from 1998 to 2002). He really started doing well at RG starting in 2005. Novak found success on clay on the pro tour by 2006. If we look at their match winning % from 2006 until NOW, they are both at 81%.
If you compare their resumes for RG, Roger is clearly ahead at this point. Of course, he's got RG championship win in 2009. But it is more than just that. Roger has reached the SF or better 7x and reached the Final 5x (including his 2009 title). Novak has reached the SF or better 5x and reached the RG Final only 1x.
martini1
Hall of Fame
Not entirely fair to Fed cos he had to face the monster clay rafa in prime. Djoker faces a weaker Rafa and he already had him in streaks (clay), just only not in RG. And yet with some luck Rafa defended his title.
Another evidence is god mode Djoker could not beat Fed in 2011 RG. I give Fed a slight edge over Djoker knowing that Djoker could win more RG title than Fed before he retires.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
Nope. Impossible to search this topic.
Similar threads
