Best Performances Against Top Rivals

P

piece

Professional
Here's my list of Federer's greatest rivals along with the matches in which I thought Federer showed the highest level against them. In brackets I put other matches that are contenders for being the best he's played against each rival, roughly in descending order of Fed's level of play.

Would be interesting to see similar lists for other players against their greatest rivals.



Nadal: 2007 Hamburg Final (other contenders in rough descending order: 2007 TMC SF, 2011 WTF RR, 2017 Shanghai F, 2017 IW R16, 2006 Rome F)


Djokovic: 2006 Davis Cup (2007 AO R16, 2012&2009 Cincinnati F, 2010 WTF SF, 2011 RG SF, 2014 Shanghai SF)


Roddick: 2003 Wimbledon Semi-Final (2007 AO SF, 2004 Bangkok F, 2005 Wimbledon F)


Murray: 2008 US Open Final (2014 WTF RR, 2010 WTF RR, AO 2010 F, 2009 Cincinnati SF)


Hewitt: 2004 US Open Final (2004 Hamburg SF, 2005 IW F, 2004 TMC F, 2005 Wimbledon SF)


Safin: 2002 Hamburg Final (2004 TMC SF, 2004 AO F)


Agassi: 2003 TMC Final (2005 Dubai SF, 2005 AO QF, 2005 Miami SF)


Nalbandian: 2003 TMC Round Robin (2006 Madrid SF, 2005 USO QF)


Del Potro: 2009 AO
 
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Nice lists, both of you

@piece - think i your top two choices against Djokovic is misleading in that Djokovic wasn't quite "Federer's top rivals" material at the times... I'd plump for Shanghai 14 like Mike

For Murray - I'd go Wimby 15
 
AO 2017 Nadal
IW 2017 Nadal (highest level he's ever played against him, IMO)
Cincy 2015 Djoker
Rome 2006 Nadal (still lost!)
Wimbledon 2012 Djoker
FO 2011 Djoker

Though Roddick and Murray were obviously rivals, I won't list matches from them since Fed owned Roddick and has basically owned Murray in every slam match except one.
 
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Waspsting said:
Nice lists, both of you

@piece - think i your top two choices against Djokovic is misleading in that Djokovic wasn't quite "Federer's top rivals" material at the times... I'd plump for Shanghai 14 like Mike

For Murray - I'd go Wimby 15
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Can't believe I forgot the 2015 Wimbledon SF!

I agree that Djokovic wasn't yet one of Federer's main rivals when those matches took place, but I was just aiming to list Fed's best matches against the players who have been his greatest rivals, whether they were at the time the match took place or not. Those IMO are his two best performances against Djokovic, and Djokovic has been one of Fed's greatest rivals. What's more, Djokovic didn't play badly in either match--probably better than his Cincy performances against Fed in fact.
 
For Federer against Djokovic it's easily RG 2011 IMO. Nothing else really comes close given the circumstances of that particular matchup. Will make a longer list later when not typing on the phone.
 
Steve0904 said:
For Federer against Djokovic it's easily RG 2011 IMO. Nothing else really comes close given the circumstances of that particular matchup. Will make a longer list later when not typing on the phone.
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Yeah, I was trying to base my list purely on Federer's level of play. But I can understand choosing the 2011 RG SF if you're taking into account weight of the moment, mental fortitude, clutchness, and the level and confidence of opponent, etc.
 
Nadal: 2017 Indian Wells
Djokovic: 2014 Shanghai
Murray: 2015 Wimbledon
Hewitt: 2004 US Open
Roddick: 2003 Wimbledon
Safin: 2004 World Tour Finals
Davydenko: 2006 US Open
Nalbandian: 2003 World Tour Finals
Agassi: 2003 World Tour Finals
Del Potro: 2009 Australian Open
 
piece said:
Yeah, I was trying to base my list purely on Federer's level of play. But I can understand choosing the 2011 RG SF if you're taking into account weight of the moment, mental fortitude, clutchness, and the level and confidence of opponent, etc.
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2011 RG is his highest level against Djokovic IMO if only because he had to sustain it for longer and on his worst surface. Shanghai 2014 would probably go in 2nd or 3rd in competition with Wimbledon 2012 unless I'm forgetting another one which I probably am.

I mean he's played well in Dubai and Cincy against Novak too, so the Shanghai match has some tough competition for potential second place. I thought he played well against Novak at the 2008 USO as well though that would probably be further down the list.
 
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piece said:
Here's my list of Federer's greatest rivals along with the matches in which I thought Federer showed the highest level against them. In brackets I put other matches that are contenders for being the best he's played against each rival, roughly in descending order of Fed's level of play.

Would be interesting to see similar lists for other players against their greatest rivals.



Nadal: 2007 Hamburg Final (other contenders in rough descending order: 2007 TMC SF, 2011 WTF RR, 2017 Shanghai F, 2017 IW R16, 2006 Rome F)


Djokovic: 2006 Davis Cup (2007 AO R16, 2012&2009 Cincinnati F, 2010 WTF SF, 2011 RG SF, 2014 Shanghai SF)


Roddick: 2003 Wimbledon Semi-Final (2007 AO SF, 2004 Bangkok F, 2005 Wimbledon F)


Murray: 2008 US Open Final (2014 WTF RR, 2010 WTF RR, AO 2010 F, 2009 Cincinnati SF)


Hewitt: 2004 US Open Final (2004 Hamburg SF, 2005 IW F, 2004 TMC F, 2005 Wimbledon SF)


Safin: 2002 Hamburg Final (2004 TMC SF, 2004 AO F)


Agassi: 2003 TMC Final (2005 Dubai SF, 2005 AO QF, 2005 Miami SF)


Nalbandian: 2003 TMC Round Robin (2006 Madrid SF, 2005 USO QF)


Del Potro: 2009 AO
Click to expand...
Nadal: World Championship 2011
Djokovic: World Championship 2010
Roddick: Australian Open 2007
Hewitt: US Open 2004
Murray: World Championship 2014
Can't comment on the early rivals since I wasn't watching those days.
 
piece said:
Here's my list of Federer's greatest rivals along with the matches in which I thought Federer showed the highest level against them. In brackets I put other matches that are contenders for being the best he's played against each rival, roughly in descending order of Fed's level of play.

Would be interesting to see similar lists for other players against their greatest rivals.



Nadal: 2007 Hamburg Final (other contenders in rough descending order: 2007 TMC SF, 2011 WTF RR, 2017 Shanghai F, 2017 IW R16, 2006 Rome F)


Djokovic: 2006 Davis Cup (2007 AO R16, 2012&2009 Cincinnati F, 2010 WTF SF, 2011 RG SF, 2014 Shanghai SF)


Roddick: 2003 Wimbledon Semi-Final (2007 AO SF, 2004 Bangkok F, 2005 Wimbledon F)


Murray: 2008 US Open Final (2014 WTF RR, 2010 WTF RR, AO 2010 F, 2009 Cincinnati SF)


Hewitt: 2004 US Open Final (2004 Hamburg SF, 2005 IW F, 2004 TMC F, 2005 Wimbledon SF)


Safin: 2002 Hamburg Final (2004 TMC SF, 2004 AO F)


Agassi: 2003 TMC Final (2005 Dubai SF, 2005 AO QF, 2005 Miami SF)


Nalbandian: 2003 TMC Round Robin (2006 Madrid SF, 2005 USO QF)


Del Potro: 2009 AO
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Excellent list. A lot of work has gone into this. Good to see acknowledgement of the USO 2004 match against Hewitt. Federer was in another worlds in this match and the level is amazing.

Only thing to add: @Rod Laver already mentioned the W2012 SF - this was not requiring a big level from Federer and he won majorly because Djokovic played poorly.
 
every7 said:
Excellent list. A lot of work has gone into this. Good to see acknowledgement of the USO 2004 match against Hewitt. Federer was in another worlds in this match and the level is amazing.

Only thing to add: @Rod Laver already mentioned the W2012 SF - this was not requiring a big level from Federer and he won majorly because Djokovic played poorly.
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Rod Laver said:
Remove Djokovic wimbledon 2012. Novak was useless in that match.
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I'd hardly use the word poorly or useless for Novak in Wim 12 SF.

He didn't play great, but he wasn't bad either. It was a decent performance.

Federer's serving (in particular his 2nd serve) was too good that day.
His play in general made Novak look worse than he was.
 
abmk said:
I'd hardly use the word poorly or useless for Novak in Wim 12 SF.

He didn't play great, but he wasn't bad either. It was a decent performance.

Federer's serving (in particular his 2nd serve) was too good that day.
His play in general made Novak look worse than he was.
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Agree fed played well. But when his opponent isn't nearly at his best I don't see how you could include it in a best performances list against novak.
 
Rod Laver said:
Agree fed played well. But when his opponent isn't nearly at his best I don't see how you could include it in a best performances list against novak.
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well, I agree that there are better performances by Fed vs Novak himself.

But I don't see why performances where opponent isn't that great shouldn't be included.

by that criteria performances vs Hewitt in USO 04, Roddick in AO 07 etc. would be out. they were clearly worse than djoko in wim 12.

thread question was when federer showed his highest level vs those opponents.
 
abmk said:
well, I agree that there are better performances by Fed vs Novak himself.

But I don't see why performances where opponent isn't that great shouldn't be included.

by that criteria performances vs Hewitt in USO 04, Roddick in AO 07 etc. would be out. they were clearly worse than djoko in wim 12.

thread question was when federer showed his highest level vs those opponents.
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Yes agree with what you have said. I think our disagreement is with how well federer played. In my eyes he's had much better performances against Djokovic. I also think Djokovic played much worse than you suggest and is why his performance may be viewed as better than it was.
 
The Green Mile said:
I'm not sure about that TMC RR match against Nalbandian. It was a dreadful match, where Federer didn't have to come out of first or second gear. Nalbandian was hopeless.
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Hmm the way I'd remembered the match was a little like the last two sets of the Federer v Agassi final at the same event, with Federer's opponent playing quite poorly but Federer playing spectacularly from the baseline and engaging in crazy shotmaking despite serving badly. But maybe my perspective is a bit rose-coloured by my memories of both Nalbandian and Federer playing well in their other matches at TMC 03, in which case I guess Federer's performances against Nalbandian at Madrid 06 and USO 05 should be above this one. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the match is on youtube to refresh my faulty memory
 
piece said:
Hmm the way I'd remembered the match was a little like the last two sets of the Federer v Agassi final at the same event, with Federer's opponent playing quite poorly but Federer playing spectacularly from the baseline and engaging in crazy shotmaking despite serving badly. But maybe my perspective is a bit rose-coloured by my memories of both Nalbandian and Federer playing well in their other matches at TMC 03, in which case I guess Federer's performances against Nalbandian at Madrid 06 and USO 05 should be above this one. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the match is on youtube to refresh my faulty memory
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It was on YouTube not too long ago, the channel must have been deleted or taken down. Both guys service were rather abysmal, and David sprayed errors throughout the entire match, looked mentally drained in the 2nd. Fed's forehand was solid, but nothing spectacular took place from Fed's side IMO.
 
Rod Laver said:
Yes agree with what you have said. I think our disagreement is with how well federer played. In my eyes he's had much better performances against Djokovic. I also think Djokovic played much worse than you suggest and is why his performance may be viewed as better than it was.
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I agree that he's had clearly better performances vs djokovic --- USO 08/09, all 3 cincy matches- 09/12/15, both the shanghai matches - 10/14, YEC 10 SF -- all come to mind.

Initially I thought that the Fed-Murray final was a much better match than the Fed-Djoko SF. (my impression was coloured by the rallies being quite clearly better in the final )
But I re-watched both of them and took down the stats. Then I realised that the quality was much closer than what I initially thought.
that the quality of the djokovic-federer match was quite clearly higher than my first impression.

I still think that the fed-murray final was the better match , but the difference wasn't that big.

The serving was clearly better in the semi (Federer/Djokovic in comparision to Federer/Murray in the final), so the match had lesser rallies. That many a times, makes us under-rate its quality (especially in comparision to a match that had more/better rallies)
 
abmk said:
I agree that he's had clearly better performances vs djokovic --- USO 08/09, all 3 cincy matches- 09/12/15, both the shanghai matches - 10/14, YEC 10 SF -- all come to mind.

Initially I thought that the Fed-Murray final was a much better match than the Fed-Djoko SF. (my impression was coloured by the rallies being quite clearly better in the final )
But I re-watched both of them and took down the stats. Then I realised that the quality was much closer than what I initially thought.
that the quality of the djokovic-federer match was quite clearly higher than my first impression.

I still think that the fed-murray final was the better match , but the difference wasn't that big.

The serving was clearly better in the semi (Federer/Djokovic in comparision to Federer/Murray in the final), so the match had lesser rallies. That many a times, makes us under-rate its quality (especially in comparision to a match that had more/better rallies)
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I might have to watch it again. My initial impression was very similar to yours and like you I thought the final was a higher quality. In saying that, I thought strategically Federer was excellent. As you point out there were many short rallies, games, and sets which always favours Federer's game style.
 
abmk said:
I'd hardly use the word poorly or useless for Novak in Wim 12 SF.

He didn't play great, but he wasn't bad either. It was a decent performance.

Federer's serving (in particular his 2nd serve) was too good that day.
His play in general made Novak look worse than he was.
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My impression was that Djokovic was well under par. Maybe that is a more appropriate description. Agree, Federer's level exposed him even worse.
 
If I'm trying to narrow it down to just one match against each rival then my list looks like this.

Against Nadal it's very surface dependent. I think his best level of performance against Nadal in a slam was in the 2006 Wimbledon final, but Nadal is so good on clay that you might also say Madrid 2009. And then there are his indoor matches with Nadal and matches like IW 2012 and 2017, and Shanghai 2017 where even though Nadal's worst surface is indoor HC and he's not as good on outdoor hard as on clay, these matches show Federer's level better on their own. I think if pushed to pick just one match and not accounting for the importance of slam matches I'd go with the 2011 WTF RR match. I think he had something like 28 winners and 4 UE for the match.


Djokovic: RG 2011. This one's perhaps surprisingly easy, IMO.


Roddick: 2003 Wimbledon SF and AO 2007 SF. If pushed I'd probably pick the latter.


Murray: He has a few nice performances against Murray. 2008 USO Final, 2010 AO Final, and 2015 Wimbledon SF. I'll go with the 2008 USO Final. Murray had a bit of stage fright in his first slam final, but the same could be said about all of his slam finals before Wimbledon 2012. In the USO 2008 match the FH was firing so that's why it gets my vote. The 2015 Wimbledon SF and 2010 AO Final were great too, but I always like to see the Federer FH clicking over any of his other shots so that's why it gets my #1 vote.


Hewitt: 2004 US Open Final. No question about this one.


Safin: 2004 TMC SF.


Agassi: 2003 TMC Final


Nalbandian: 2005 USO QF


Del Potro: 2012 AO
 
I'll do Nadal's best performances.

Federer: RG 08

Djokovic: Monte Carlo 2012- Nadal has had better beatdowns of Novak earlier on scoreline-wise, but this win was very impressive because it broke his 7 loss streak.

Murray: RG 2014

Wawrinka: RG 2017

Del Potro: US 2017. Nadal had never handled Del Potro like this on a hardcourt.

Ferrer: too many options...

Berdych: Rome 2013
 
For Nadal

Federer: Aus Open 2009
Djokovic: US Open 2010
Murray: French Open 2014
Wawrinka: French Open 2017
Del Potro: US Open 2017
Ferrer: French Open 2013
Berdych: Wimbledon 2010
 
TheAverageFedererFan said:
Nadal: 2017 Indian Wells
Djokovic: 2014 Shanghai
Murray: 2015 Wimbledon
Hewitt: 2004 US Open
Roddick: 2003 Wimbledon
Safin: 2004 World Tour Finals
Davydenko: 2006 US Open
Nalbandian: 2003 World Tour Finals
Agassi: 2003 World Tour Finals
Del Potro: 2009 Australian Open
Click to expand...

That's a pretty good list.
 
papertank said:
I'll do Nadal's best performances.

Federer: RG 08

Djokovic: Monte Carlo 2012- Nadal has had better beatdowns of Novak earlier on scoreline-wise, but this win was very impressive because it broke his 7 loss streak.

Murray: RG 2014

Wawrinka: RG 2017

Del Potro: US 2017. Nadal had never handled Del Potro like this on a hardcourt.

Ferrer: too many options...

Berdych: Rome 2013
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Pretty nice list. My only change would probably be the Murray match. Nadal was awesome that day for sure, but Murray is pretty weak on clay relative to the Big 3, and didn't start playing passable tennis on the surface until 2015. Personally, I'd go with one of the Wimbledon matches, like say the 2010 one.

I might change the Djokovic one as well to something like RG 2012 or maybe even USO 2013 given the things Nadal has to overcome against Djokovic on a HC in comparison to clay, but I do understand the reasoning behind the MC 2012 pick.
 
I will make my list for Novak:
Federer: AO16 SF
Nadal: Doha 16 F or Rome 11 F
(USO 11 F and Paris 09 honorable mentions)
Murray: Shanghai 15 SF and AO 11 F
Wawrinka: Rome 2011
against Stanimal version: AO13, both played awesome
Del Potro: USO 12 QF
Ferrer: AO13(best match of his career)
Berdych: Beijing 14 F
Tsonga: Wimby 14 4R

against older players:
USO 08 vs Roddick
AO 08 vs Hewitt
 
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