Best player on a surface... without any title on it ?

[vive le beau jeu !]

(open era)

clay: i guess it's becker ! multiple SF at RG, reached the final of the other important tournaments on clay... yet didn't win any.

grass: henman ? tsonga ?

carpet: it was abandoned some years ago (unfortunatley), so i guess we should only take players who had the chance to play on it at least during a significant part of their career... maybe hewitt ?

(outdoor) hard: not an easy one...

 

[kiki]

Clayecci
Grass:Mc Namara
Carpetenton

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Clayecci
Grass:Mc Namara
Carpetenton

the man with the diamond in the ear won 9 titles on clay...

 

[Vegito]

At the time Del Potro in grass..

 

[urban]

Grass: maybe Panatta, Noah, Curren or Leconte, Pioline
Clay. Maybe Chesnokonov, don't know, if he won anything on clay, but was seen as the Borg clone, or Tulasne, who was also seen as the next Borg, or Pioline or Boetsch..

 

[kiki]

Grass: maybe Panatta, Noah, Curren or Leconte, Pioline
Clay. Maybe Chesnokonov, don't know, if he won anything on clay, but was seen as the Borg clone, or Tulasne, who was also seen as the next Borg, or Pioline or Boetsch..

Chesnokov won Montecarlo.He and Mecir were Wilander´s nightmares on clay.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

Grass: maybe Panatta, Noah, Curren or Leconte, Pioline
Clay. Maybe Chesnokonov, don't know, if he won anything on clay, but was seen as the Borg clone, or Tulasne, who was also seen as the next Borg, or Pioline or Boetsch..

noah admitted himself that he sucked on grass (mainly due to his poor return).
both leconte and pioline won grass titles.

... but curren, with his 2 slam finals on grass, is a great choice !
(denton has 2 AO finals on grass, but the rest of his results appears inferior...)

 

[encylopedia]

Grass: maybe Panatta, Noah, Curren or Leconte, Pioline..

Just.....no.

 

[encylopedia]

noah admitted himself that he sucked on grass (mainly due to his poor return).

He was awful....and yes...his return was the thing pointed to a lot...but it wasn't just that...

both leconte and pioline won grass titles.

Yes, Henri had some great wins on grass... a few titles...didnt' do great at Wimbledon - had one good year, but still, he's disqualified completely from the premise. That list was....poor.

 

[kiki]

He was awful....and yes...his return was the thing pointed to a lot...but it wasn't just that...



Yes, Henri had some great wins on grass... a few titles...didnt' do great at Wimbledon - had one good year, but still, he's disqualified completely from the premise. That list was....poor.

No,Leconte had a semifinal and two quarters at Wimbledon, which is not that bad really.

 

[KG1965]

Connors zero on red clay

(open era)

clay: i guess it's becker ! multiple SF at RG, reached the final of the other important tournaments on clay... yet didn't win any.

grass: henman ? tsonga ?

carpet: it was abandoned some years ago (unfortunatley), so i guess we should only take players who had the chance to play on it at least during a significant part of their career... maybe hewitt ?

(outdoor) hard: not an easy one...

If clay is meant only the red clay and is excluded from the calculation the har tru , Connors .
He never won a title on red clay . He lost a final at Hamburg , and did not finish the final M.Carlo 1981 against Vilas .

 

[KG1965]

Jim Courier & Gene Mayer on grass

 

[KG1965]

On carpet .. Josè HIgueras

 

[KG1965]

On hc... Hans Gildemeister

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

If clay is meant only the red clay and is excluded from the calculation the har tru , Connors .
He never won a title on red clay . He lost a final at Hamburg , and did not finish the final M.Carlo 1981 against Vilas .

good point !

Jim Courier & Gene Mayer on grass

i thought about courier, tried to forget my dislike for him for a while, but apart from his final in 1993, he doesn't have much.

for some of the players mentioned so far for grass (and that never won a grass title), here are their overall record on the surface, against the top10, their slam achievements and finals in regular tournaments:

• curren, 71-36, 4-8, 2F + 1SF + 1QF, no other final
• henman, 84-34, 5-9, 4SF + 4QF, 3 other finals
• tsonga, 38-15, 3-7, 2SF + 1 QF, 1 other final (maybe more to come ?...)
• courier, 23-17, 2-3, 1F + 1QF, no other final

(i didn't include gene mayer and steven denton due to their respective 15-13 and 26-22 records on grass)

he's not the 'best' but maybe zivojinovic is also worth a mention:
SF at both AO and wimbledon, 3 top10 wins on grass (mcenroe, wilander, mecir).

 

[kiki]

On carpet .. Josè HIgueras

I don´t think Higueras was a good carpet player.It was his worst surface.I´d consider him for hard, not carpet.

 

[kiki]

Mecir was very good on grass and carpet, with his deceptive swing and power, fast legs and great return of serve.I don´t recall if he ever won a grass and/ or carpet title.I´d find it surprising if he didn´t.

 

[kiki]

On hc... Hans Gildemeister

Sorry to disagree.I liked Gildemeister very much but I can´t see how he would be a threat outside clay courts.Maybe in a slow hard court, but it really had to be slow and during his playing years, hard courts were quite fast.

 

[kiki]

Does anybody recall if Dibbs won a carpet title? I think he did but I have ran out of memory juice now.In case he didn´t, he certainly is one of the best, if not the best player, to never win on carpet.

 

[KG1965]

2

Does anybody recall if Dibbs won a carpet title? I think he did but I have ran out of memory juice now.In case he didn´t, he certainly is one of the best, if not the best player, to never win on carpet.

1975 Monterrey WCT beats twin Solomon
and 1975 London Dewar Cup (Wembley) - BIG title beats Connors 1-6 6-1 7-5
.. the year that Jimbo lost all finals !!

 

[kiki]

Thanks.Yes, London indoors was always a main indoor stop, specially at the end of the season.Great win for Dibbs there, much more if he won a close match against somebody like 1975 Connors¡¡.I remember he also played very well at the Birmingham and New Orleans WCT finals losing close matches to Connors and Newcombe.

 

[encylopedia]

No,Leconte had a semifinal and two quarters at Wimbledon, which is not that bad really.

I am, of course, familiar with his results. I stand by my statement, ONE semi, 2 QF, 2 4th rounds, 2 3rd rounds, 3 2nd round, and 3 1st rounds is NOT good by the standards of the premise of this thread ie. best on a surface.

The guy lost 8 out of 13 times in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round.

 

[mattennis]

Becker on clay:

He made SF at RG in 1987 (lost to Wilander in straight sets), 1989 (lost to Edberg, in five sets) and 1991 (lost to Agassi in four sets).

Also made QF in 1986 (lost to Pernfors IIRC).


He was runner-up multiple times in big clay tournaments:


In Monte Carlo 1989, he got to the final (without losing a single set, defeating several good clay courters) and lost to Alberto Mancini in four close sets 5-7 6-2 6-7 5-7.


In Monte Carlo 1991, he defeated four very good claycourters (Sanchez, Volkov, Chesnokov and Prpic) and got the final again where he lost to great Sergi Bruguera in (again) four very close sets 7-5 4-6 6-7 6-7.


In Monte Carlo 1995 once again he got to the final (defeating Bjorkman, Corretja, Krajicek and Ivanisevic) and in the final he lost to Thomas Muster in five sets (was leading two sets to love, and had two match points) 6-4 7-5 1-6 6-7 0-6.

That match was the closest he got to a clay title.

In Rome he got to the SF in 1985 where he lost to Noah, and he was runner-up in 1994 where (after defeating Novacek, Sanchez, Pioline, Stich and Ivanisevic) he lost in straight sets to Sampras.


In Hamburg, he got to SF in 1988 where he lost to Leconte 6-3 6-7 6-7, again made SF the following year, in 1989, defeating several good clay courters but losing to Horst Skoff 6-7 2-6.

In 1990 also in Hamburg he got to the final (defeating Cane, Cherkasov, Arias and Leconte) but was clearly defeated in the final by stylish Spaniard Juan Aguilera by 1-6 0-6 6-7.

In 1992 Hamburg, he got to the SF again, but was destroyed by Stich 1-6 1-6.


He also made some other clay court final, like Gstaad in 1998, where he defeated Batl, Pioline, Mantilla and Rios, but lost in the final against Corretja by 6-7 5-7 3-6.


(even at the end of his career, he was still able to defeat Pioline, Mantilla and Rios back to back to back, on clay, without losing a single set).


He was very good on clay, at least as good as Edberg, Sampras, Stich, Ivanisevic or McEnroe (all of them won several clay court tournaments), but Becker was just unlucky not to win a single clay court title during his entire career.

 

[kiki]

Becker on clay:

He made SF at RG in 1987 (lost to Wilander in straight sets), 1989 (lost to Edberg, in five sets) and 1991 (lost to Agassi in four sets).

Also made QF in 1986 (lost to Pernfors IIRC).


He was runner-up multiple times in big clay tournaments:


In Monte Carlo 1989, he got to the final (without losing a single set, defeating several good clay courters) and lost to Alberto Mancini in four close sets 5-7 6-2 6-7 5-7.


In Monte Carlo 1991, he defeated four very good claycourters (Sanchez, Volkov, Chesnokov and Prpic) and got the final again where he lost to great Sergi Bruguera in (again) four very close sets 7-5 4-6 6-7 6-7.


In Monte Carlo 1995 once again he got to the final (defeating Bjorkman, Corretja, Krajicek and Ivanisevic) and in the final he lost to Thomas Muster in five sets (was leading two sets to love, and had two match points) 6-4 7-5 1-6 6-7 0-6.

That match was the closest he got to a clay title.

In Rome he got to the SF in 1985 where he lost to Noah, and he was runner-up in 1994 where (after defeating Novacek, Sanchez, Pioline, Stich and Ivanisevic) he lost in straight sets to Sampras.


In Hamburg, he got to SF in 1988 where he lost to Leconte 6-3 6-7 6-7, again made SF the following year, in 1989, defeating several good clay courters but losing to Horst Skoff 6-7 2-6.

In 1990 also in Hamburg he got to the final (defeating Cane, Cherkasov, Arias and Leconte) but was clearly defeated in the final by stylish Spaniard Juan Aguilera by 1-6 0-6 6-7.

In 1992 Hamburg, he got to the SF again, but was destroyed by Stich 1-6 1-6.


He also made some other clay court final, like Gstaad in 1998, where he defeated Batl, Pioline, Mantilla and Rios, but lost in the final against Corretja by 6-7 5-7 3-6.


(even at the end of his career, he was still able to defeat Pioline, Mantilla and Rios back to back to back, on clay, without losing a single set).


He was very good on clay, at least as good as Edberg, Sampras, Stich, Ivanisevic or McEnroe (all of them won several clay court tournaments), but Becker was just unlucky not to win a single clay court title during his entire career.

I agree.Boris is the most underrated clay courter ever.Much superior to Edberg on clay in historical prospective.

 

[Moose Malloy]

carpet: it was abandoned some years ago (unfortunatley), so i guess we should only take players who had the chance to play on it at least during a significant part of their career... maybe hewitt ?

some others: Haas, Philippoussis, Medvedev, Rafter, Todd Martin

hardcourt - maybe Jimmy Arias?

surprised Forget or Krishnan didn't win any grass titles