One of the problems with selecting Rios as the best of those never having won a major is that his alleged skills as a tactician usually weren't enough to help him overcome Top 10 opponents in majors. He defeated only two of them, Enqvist, #9 at the 97 Australian and Bruguera, #8 at the 97 US. That's a very poor showing for a player who spent some time ranked #1. He did, however do better at Masters events, especially in 1998.
Best player who never won a slam?
- Thread starter IamGroot
- Start date
One of the problems with selecting Rios as the best of those never having won a major is that his alleged skills as a tactician usually weren't enough to help him overcome Top 10 opponents in majors. He defeated only two of them, Enqvist, #9 at the 97 Australian and Bruguera, #8 at the 97 US. That's a very poor showing for a player who spent some time ranked #1. He did, however do better at Masters events, especially in 1998.
Slick Tennis
Rookie
Mansour Bahrami, read his story-if he could have made it on the Tour earlier...
J
JRAJ1988
Guest
Tommy Haas.
Miloslav Mecir stands out as the best player to me. He won Miami when it was regarded as the 'fifth Slam'. Won Olympic gold medal, won WCT finals over McEnroe. US Open finalist, Australian Open finalist. Very close to beating Edberg in 1988 Wimbledon semi-final (Edberg went onto win the whole championship). People hated playing him, he was an absolute handful for anyone. One ofthe very smartest players ever.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
On Roddick>Rafter, that's only if you're looking at careers.
Peak for Peak, Rafter is head and shoulders above many, MANY players. I'd say Top 10 prime for prime on hard court. His 1998 form in garnering the triple crown was something else. I never saw Roddick in that kind of zone. His back to back Wimbledon finals onto an early retirement cement his legacy for me as a Hall of Famer and deserving #1.
Compare Patrick Rafter to Marcel Rios, no comparison.
Peak for Peak, Rafter is head and shoulders above many, MANY players. I'd say Top 10 prime for prime on hard court. His 1998 form in garnering the triple crown was something else. I never saw Roddick in that kind of zone. His back to back Wimbledon finals onto an early retirement cement his legacy for me as a Hall of Famer and deserving #1.
Compare Patrick Rafter to Marcel Rios, no comparison.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
It's probably Marcelo Rios.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
Rafter's peak is/wasn't head and shoulders above Roddick's. Better, most certainly. But by that amount? No way..
BGod
G.O.A.T.
Would, substantially better suffice?
I know Roddick got the USO triple crown too but his competition was so much weaker. Rafter just dominated.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Don't see it that way. Rafter's peak was good but Roddick could be downright overpowering - I don't think there's a large gap.
2003 was a stronger year than 1998 as well BTW.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
Actually, Rafter had the weaker competition..
His best opponent was an injured Sampras at the USO.
Full credit though, and I do think he's better than Roddick.. just not by the amount you're implying.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
People gripe a lot about Sampras being injured don't they? Sampras was up 2-1 in that match. Rafter beat Philippoussis in the Final and Goran in the 4th Round.
But it was Cincinnati & Canada that told the tale:
In Cincinnati, reamed Kafelnikov 7-5, 6-0 in the semifinal. Came back against healthy Sampras losing 1-6 in the opening set to take it 7-6, 6-4.
In Canada, beat Philippoussis, Bjorkman, Henman, Krajicek without dropping a set. They were seeded 5-7th and Philippoussis was 14th but would make USO Final as stated above.
Who did Roddick beat? Schalken, Nalbandian choking and Ferrero in the Final for that USO title. Won Cincinnati against unseeded Mardy Fish and Canada against Nalbandian.
But it was Cincinnati & Canada that told the tale:
In Cincinnati, reamed Kafelnikov 7-5, 6-0 in the semifinal. Came back against healthy Sampras losing 1-6 in the opening set to take it 7-6, 6-4.
In Canada, beat Philippoussis, Bjorkman, Henman, Krajicek without dropping a set. They were seeded 5-7th and Philippoussis was 14th but would make USO Final as stated above.
Who did Roddick beat? Schalken, Nalbandian choking and Ferrero in the Final for that USO title. Won Cincinnati against unseeded Mardy Fish and Canada against Nalbandian.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Sampras is Sampras, doesn't mean Martin wouldn't match up better with someone else or that he wouldn't have won on of those two slam finals if he didn't have to face the best players of his era in them.
He pushed Agassi to 5 at USO (and Agassi played well in that match as far as I recall, was half-volleying from the baseline like crazy) and Andre is up there with anyone I've seen concerning level of play (when he's focused and healthy which wasn't always the case with him obviously).
Of course there's something to be said for a guy like Rios who could do absolutely amazing things with the ball (that not even someone like Fed can) and Scud with his overwhelming game but they both had better shots than Martin when it comes to their slam final opponent (Rafter and Korda, 2003 Wimbledon final Scud faced Fed so not talking about that one obviously) and couldn't deliver, Rios' AO final against Korda was probably one of the most pathetic attempts at a trophy I've ever seen (Korda didn't even have to play well).
accidental
Hall of Fame
Bernard Tomic
NatF
Bionic Poster
Philippoussis and Goran are hardly better than beating Henman in the first round, Ljubicic in the second and Nalbandian and Ferrero in the SF and F. Both Nalbandian and Ferrero had been really impressive that tournament beating a slew of top players between them. Not to mention Henman himself would end the year #11 (winning Paris) and made the SF a year later.
Roddick's Cincy draw was not tough, but he only dropped one set. In Canada he went through Grosjean, Federer and Nalbandian. That's as tougher than the Cincinati draw of Rafter at least. Obviously that Canada draw is very tough but I'm not seeing an overall huge difference.
TheMusicLover
G.O.A.T.
Davydenko should have been in the RG 2005-final. Got robbed of it by a doper.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
We had this conversation already and I don't think the results should change much. Mecir or Rios, depending on how you look at it. Rios had the talent, didn't want to work for it. Mecir just couldn't quite put it together against a rampaging Lendl.
obsessedtennisfandisorder
Professional
Seeems to me all you posters need to watch some clips of mark philipoussis in full flight.
exhibit a: defeats prime sampras 1996 AO with serves and forehands just as big as anybody, anytime
exhibit b: is going toe to toe with prime sampras again in 99 wimby, before winning first set.
exhibit c : bossing around marat safin from the baseline in paris 2000.
exhibit d: federer is clearly working very hard to overcome scud in that 03 final, in fact if i recall scud stuff up two clear passing shots in that first tiebreak.
exhibit e: destroys then world number 2 ferrero in davis cup match while injured.
exhibit f: has to do deal with crazy paek form rafter (5 unforced errors in entire match) in 1998 us open final..yet still runs rafter close in tight third set at 1 set-all.
exhibit a: defeats prime sampras 1996 AO with serves and forehands just as big as anybody, anytime
exhibit b: is going toe to toe with prime sampras again in 99 wimby, before winning first set.
exhibit c : bossing around marat safin from the baseline in paris 2000.
exhibit d: federer is clearly working very hard to overcome scud in that 03 final, in fact if i recall scud stuff up two clear passing shots in that first tiebreak.
exhibit e: destroys then world number 2 ferrero in davis cup match while injured.
exhibit f: has to do deal with crazy paek form rafter (5 unforced errors in entire match) in 1998 us open final..yet still runs rafter close in tight third set at 1 set-all.
obsessedtennisfandisorder
Professional
Just LOL, Rafter had to play a series of awesome players to do the triple crown in 1998.
you serious telling me on fast US open open courts fat nalby and choker ferrero are tought than goran and scud?
both sampras-rafter matches weredamn close (rafter won both, should have won 1st set of semi vs sampras)
NonP
Legend
Obviously Martin reached his potential more often than those two and you're right Agassi was playing remarkably well during that stretch (probably the only time in his career he came close to his otherworldly '95 level), but he really would've needed a big lucky break to grab one of those Slams. Case in point: his career record against top 10 is a subpar 34-85 for 28.6% winning percentage, lower than many a non-Slammer of similar caliber.
Speaking of which Roddick's own record vs. the top 10 is pretty revealing. Will elaborate on the eponymous thread proper.
Not sure Rafter in the '98 USO final would be such an easier opponent. As you may know he had only 5 UFEs in 4 sets, which is a ridiculous good ratio and almost as impressive as Mac's 3 UFEs in his legendary exhibition against Connors in the '84 Wimby final. Pat had swept the entire summer HC season and was on a historic roll here.
But yes, I agree Martin would have a better shot against Korda. I don't think you need to add that "probably," because Rios' effort in that AO final was easily the worst I can recall from the past 20-30 years. As I've already said on another thread the only remote contender I can think of here is Murray's own putrid showing against Novak in the '11 AO final, but at least Andy put up some effort at first, while Rios didn't really wake up until the 3rd set when the match was all but over.
good list. nice players.
Kevin Curren should be added
1984 lost ao final to wilander
1985 lost w final to becker
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
6 matches do not a player make. Have a little more respect for the input of posters here.
obsessedtennisfandisorder
Professional
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
I have always maintained that Mecir was probably the best player not to win a major.
obsessedtennisfandisorder
Professional
yeah...good call on mecir...definitely not lacking in the talent or ability department..won key biscayne impressively if I recall around 87 or so.
two grand slam final in US and Aussie and impressive wins over top players of the day.
two grand slam final in US and Aussie and impressive wins over top players of the day.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
Also don't forget the 1987 WCT Finals where he beat WIlander and McEnroe to win it.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Mecir won majors just not a slam.
My knockback is that he had just 3 years inside the top 10 and won only 11 titles. But if we're going by game and winning big (but not a slam) he must be a prime candidate. Nalbandian is a good candidate under those conditions.
Tom Okker is another decent candidate though not necessarily for the same reasons IMO.
My knockback is that he had just 3 years inside the top 10 and won only 11 titles. But if we're going by game and winning big (but not a slam) he must be a prime candidate. Nalbandian is a good candidate under those conditions.
Tom Okker is another decent candidate though not necessarily for the same reasons IMO.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
I have no problem with Okker being included in this discussion. The major finals requirement is a little iffy when considering players who never won one.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Hard to say, does reaching a slam final make you a better player than someone who was more consistent on the tour and held a consistent top 5 ranking for example?
Perhaps we should say the best to lose a slam final. But I feel a guy like Davydenko who won the YEC, 3 masters and was a top 5 player for a large stretch would be unfairly omitted from the discussion in that case.
Not sure how I view Tom Okker's 1968 USO run but he also made a YEC final and the final of the Tennis Champions Classic - both huge tournaments.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
@NatF Good example. The wording in the original question does not infer such discrimination. There are players who beat some of the greatest in the history of the game and won tournaments that could be likened to majors. The thread should be celebrating them rather than looking for ways to disqualify them.
C
Cenarius
Guest
Nalbandian and Mercir.I'll never forgive you David. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
mattosgrant
Banned
Davydenko should have been in the RG 2005-final. Got robbed of it by a doper.
Federer-Nadal should have been the final there anyway. Yeah otherwise I agree though.
Still wouldnt change that Fed never denied him a likely slam though.
NatF
Bionic Poster
AO 06 and AO 2010 are possibilities.
TheMusicLover
G.O.A.T.
As far as my memory doesn't fail me, a Fedal final at RG 2005 was impossible as they were in the same half of the draw and already met in the semi, with Nadal of course coming out the winner.
Davydenko lost to that Argentinian Doper (I refuse to mention his name, for obvious reasons) in his semifinal.
Which, especially in hindsight, is a darn shame. Not that I think that Kolya would have had any chance against Nadal in said final, but at least he'd have a GS final under his belt.
Nope. But still...
EDIT: like NatF already mentioned.
mattosgrant
Banned
AO 2006- Baghdatis, Nalbandian, Haas, Kiefer would all be possible winners too. I wouldnt bet on Davydenko who is known to never play his best in the big slam matches to prevail at all.
AO 2010- Yeah I had forgotten that one. That might be more likely than the 06 AO since Davydenko had just won the WTF and would have confidence. Then again the way he completely fell apart and went away completely in the last 2 sets vs Federer is not a good sign. Then again Federer's semi and final opponents here were both unimpressive so Davydenko probably still had a good shot.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I suppose Haas progressing to the QF might pose some troubles, they had tough 5 setter the next year IIRC. Nalbandian was beaten by Baghdatis though - I would have actually favored Nalbandian over Federer if he made it to the final.
It depends if Murray could play to his potential when facing someone other than Federer in the final - the weight of expectation would no doubt be even greater. Maybe he would crack.
mattosgrant
Banned
I would probably favor Haas to win that year without Federer. Yes Nalbandian was beaten by Baghdatis, but that doesn't mean with a new draw and not playing Baghdatis possibly (remember he was up 2 sets to 0 on Marcos, up a break in the 5th, and totally should have won that match anyway) he doesn't quite possibly win. Nalbandian generally had the edge against Davydenko, and of the two he is a bit more the big match player. Baghdatis could even do it, he was playing really well. Davydenko would have a chance, but it would be far from a gimme, and I think it is more likely he still doesn't win it.
Then onto 2010 if Murray played badly against Federer due to nerves, playing someone he was really expected to beat (which he wasn't Federer) he would just be even more likely to underperform IMO. Then again he would be facing Davydenko who is known for lack of mental toughness in big matches. Similar playing styles, and competitive history to that point. Flip a coin really.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Nalbandian wins if he doesn't run into an inspired Baghdatis with that crowd behind him - their match was high quality as well. Great clash. I don't think Haas pushed Federer as hard as Davydenko IMO, not considering Federer's level anyway.I think Federer took the foot off the gas versus Haas in a way he didn't against Davydenko.
Davydenko is a monster in finals though, his record there is masterful. Slam finals could be a different kettle of fish for him though...Murray wasn't that bad but he was completely uninspired - unlike 2011 where he was just bad.
Davydenko is a monster in finals though, his record there is masterful. Slam finals could be a different kettle of fish for him though...Murray wasn't that bad but he was completely uninspired - unlike 2011 where he was just bad.
mattosgrant
Banned
I guess we never saw Davydenko in a slam final so we will never know. Seeing how he generally performs in the quarters or semis of slams though, I would be surprised if he remained the formidable finals performer in slam finals though. His Australian Open quarterfinal with Federer that year was one of his best efforts in the late stages of slams though. Just didn't play some of the big points that well, but otherwise very solid and good performance, contrary to what he usually performs at that stage of a slam.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
Men: Nalbandian, Davydenko, Rios, Henman
Women: Shriver, Dementieva, Casals, Sukova
Women: Shriver, Dementieva, Casals, Sukova
Andyk028
Professional
blasphemy.
mattosgrant
Banned
Davydenko, Nalbandian, Okker, Haas, Mecir, Todd Martin, Rios, are IMO all superior to Ferrer. Berdych, Tsonga, Pioline, Corretja, are all atleast equally good.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Mecir, the big cat. Gorgeous strokes, smooth as silk, fit, lovely game. Very underrated player.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Added. Thanks for that. Had it in my mind that Curren only made a Wimbledon final!
mattosgrant
Banned
Curren was a good enough player to possibly win a major and many thought he would win the 85 Wimbledon final over inexperienced Becker going in. However I dont think he would make the short list of best players to not win one either. He had a very big serve.
