Best red clay player to never win the French Open

[buscemi]

I decided to put together the stats for the best current and past red clay players to never win the French Open. These stats include their best performance(s) at the French Open as well as their titles at Masters Series-esque events: Italian Open/Rome, Monte Carlo, German Open/Hamburg (before it was downgraded), and Madrid. By alphabetical order

Alcaraz: 1 French Open SF; 2 Madrid titles​

Coria: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Corretja: 2 French Open finals; 1 Italian Open title​

Dibbs: 2 French Open SFs; 3 German Open titles​

Edberg: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Ferrer: 1 French Open final; no clay Masters Series titles​

Gerulaitis: 1 French Open final; 2 Italian Open titles​

Higueras: 2 French Open SFs; 2 German Open titles​

Leconte: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Mecir: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Medvedev: 1 French Open final; 3 German Open titles; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Murray: 1 French Open final; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Madrid title​

Norman: 1 French Open final; 1 Italian Open title​

Okker: 1 French Open SF, 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title; 1 German Open​

Orantes: 1 French Open final; 2 German Open titles; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Ramirez: 2 French Open SFs; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Rios: 2 French Open QFs; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title; 1 German Open title​

Ruud: 2 French Open finals; no clay Masters Series titles​

Soderling: 2 French Open finals; no clay Masters Series titles​

Solomon: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Stich: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Thiem: 2 French Open finals; no clay Masters Series titles​

Tsitsipas: 1 French Open final; 3 Monte Carlo titles​

Zverev: 2 French Open SFs; 2 Madrid titles; 1 Italian Open title​

It was unsurprising to me that Orantes's stats look the best, given that he actually did win a clay Major: the 1975 U.S. Open on Har-Tru. What was surprising to me was how Andrei Medvedev came off in this comparison. I knew about his success at the German Open, but I never thought I'd see him at/near the top of this list. But, like Orantes, he has a five set loss in a French final and 4 Master Series-esque titles.

OTOH, it's interesting that the four players on this list who have made 2 French finals -- Corretja, Ruud, Soderling, and Thiem -- only have 1 Masters Series title among them (Corretja's Italian Open title). Of course Ruud, and, to a lesser extent, Thiem, still have time to add to their tallies.

Anyway, any thoughts about which players should top this list? Any notable omissions?

 

[MichaelNadal]

It's really weird that Thiem has no clay masters and was beating Nadal in them multiple times.

 

[tennis_pro]

Between Coria and Thiem IMO. Shoutout to Soderling for making 2 FO finals (both amazing runs where he beat Nadal and Federer both in their primes), but he didn't do much outside of that on clay.

 

[Hitman]

It's Coria. This shouldn't even be a discussion. That guy was a pure natural on the surface, his movement, anticipation and shot tolerance.

 

[RS]

Djokovic in a strong era

 

[tennis_pro]

Djokovic in a strong era

nadal minus the 14 french opens

 

[Deleted member 758560]

half of those guys havin no idea so better will remain silent-)

 

[Subway Tennis]

Fantastic writeup Buscemi.

For me I think the answer is Orantes with Medvedev and Thiem close considerations.

With those three it feels like just a quirk of circumstance that stopped them. Medvedev is brutally unlucky to not have won RG, and Thiem had quite a few uninterrupted years of being easily the second best player in the world in Bo5 on clay.

The 2 other X Factors for me are Coria and Ruud. Never seen someone play on clay quite same way as Coria. And Ruud I think may end up disqualifying himself from this list by winning RG at some point.

Every other player in the list, great as they are, for me had some slight flaw that either explains why they failed at the ultimate test of RG despite being a great clay player or had a very high RG peak that they could not sustain elsewhere on clay, either for reasons of too high risk a playing style or physical and/or mental limitations that red clay exposes like no other surface.

 

[aus89]

Magnus Norman - 1 RG Final, won Rome Masters - 7 clay titles
but yeah its Coria for sure Soderling is up there but perhaps not clay specific.

 

[NAS]

It's Coria. This shouldn't even be a discussion. That guy was a pure natural on the surface, his movement, anticipation and shot tolerance.

Really? Over Orantes and Soderling?
Coria failure to make 2003 final and choking in 2004 final doesn't make him better than Soderling and Orantes Or even Ramirez

 

[NAS]

If it was closest then everybody can say Coria

 

[NAS]

Soderling beating two defending French Open champion and going into final is better than winning one MC , Rome, Hamburg/ Madrid title.

 

[NAS]

It's really weird that Thiem has no clay masters and was beating Nadal in them multiple times.

Yeah Thiem is such a headcase, after defeating Rafa in clay master, used to loose in next round and he was defeating Rafa in years when he was in top form winning other two clay master of that year

 

[buscemi]

Magnus Norman - 1 RG Final, won Rome Masters - 7 clay titles
but yeah its Coria for sure Soderling is up there but perhaps not clay specific.

Good addition.

 

[buscemi]

If it was closest then everybody can say Coria

Yep, with 2 match points in the final.

Both Orantes and Medvedev were also up 2-0 in sets in their finals.

Orantes had no shot in sets 3-5 against Borg, but Medvedev had a break point on Agassi's serve at 4-4 in the third set, so he wasn't far behind Coria in being the closest to taking the title.

 

[Shaolin]

I decided to put together the stats for the best current and past red clay players to never win the French Open. These stats include their best performance(s) at the French Open as well as their titles at Masters Series-esque events: Italian Open/Rome, Monte Carlo, German Open/Hamburg (before it was downgraded), and Madrid. By alphabetical order

Coria: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Corretja: 2 French Open finals; 1 Italian Open title​

Dibbs: 2 French Open SFs; 3 German Open titles​

Edberg: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Gerulaitis: 1 French Open final; 2 Italian Open titles​

Higueras: 2 French Open SFs; 2 German Open titles​

Leconte: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Medvedev: 1 French Open final; 3 German Open titles; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Norman: 1 French Open final; 1 Italian Open title​

Orantes: 1 French Open final; 2 German Open titles; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Ramirez: 2 French Open SFs; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

Ruud: 2 French Open finals; no clay Masters Series titles​

Soderling: 2 French Open finals; no clay Masters Series titles​

Solomon: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Stich: 1 French Open final; 1 German Open title​

Thiem: 2 French Open finals; no clay Masters Series titles​

Tsitsipas: 1 French Open final; 3 Monte Carlo titles​

Zverev: 2 French Open SFs; 2 Madrid titles; 1 Italian Open title​

It was unsurprising to me that Orantes's stats look the best, given that he actually did win a clay Major: the 1975 U.S. Open on Har-Tru. What was surprising to me was how Andrei Medvedev came off in this comparison. I knew about his success at the German Open, but I never thought I'd see him at/near the top of this list. But, like Orantes, he has a five set loss in a French final and 4 Master Series-esque titles.

OTOH, it's interesting that the four players on this list who have made 2 French finals -- Corretja, Ruud, Soderling, and Thiem -- only have 1 Masters Series title among them (Corretja's Italian Open title). Of course Ruud, and, to a lesser extent, Thiem, still have time to add to their tallies.

Anyway, any thoughts about which players should top this list? Any notable omissions?

How did you manage to forget Rios?

 

[buscemi]

Soderling beating two defending French Open champion and going into final is better than winning one MC , Rome, Hamburg/ Madrid title.

Medvedev beat Kuerten in the 1999 French QF. Kuerten wasn't the defending champion in 1999, but he was the 1997/2000/2001 champion and had come in on the back of winning Monte Carlo/Italian Open, so that was a pretty strong win.

 

[buscemi]

How did you manage to forget Rios?

I'll include him for his Masters Series titles, but IMO it's tough to have him on a list of the best red clay players to never win the French Open when he never made it past the French QF.

 

[Shaolin]

I'll include him for his Masters Series titles, but IMO it's tough to have him on a list of the best red clay players to never win the French Open when he never made it past the French QF.

He was one of the most talented players on red clay ever. Watch one of his matches sometime.

 

[urban]

Tom Okker, Martin Mulligan, Eric Sturgess.

 

[buscemi]

He was one of the most talented players on red clay ever. Watch one of his matches sometime.

Oh, I've watched plenty of Rios matches. The big question for him for this thread is why his game never translated to much success at the French Open. His best 4 years there:

1996: loses to Pioline in the fourth round, 6-4, 6-1, 6-2​

1997: loses to Arazi in the fourth round, 6-2, 6-1, 5-7, 7-6​

1998: loses to Moya in the QF, 6-1, 2-6, 6-2, 6-4​

1999: loses to Hrbaty in the QF, 7-6, 6-2, 6-7, 6-3​

That's four ugly losses, with seven sets lost either 6-1 or 6-2.

 

[Kralingen]

Ferru doesn’t even make the list

 

[Shaolin]

Oh, I've watched plenty of Rios matches. The big question for him for this thread is why his game never translated to much success at the French Open. His best 4 years there:

1996: loses to Pioline in the fourth round, 6-4, 6-1, 6-2​

1997: loses to Arazi in the fourth round, 6-2, 6-1, 5-7, 7-6​

1998: loses to Moya in the QF, 6-1, 2-6, 6-2, 6-4​

1999: loses to Hrbaty in the QF, 7-6, 6-2, 6-7, 6-3​

That's four ugly losses, with seven sets lost either 6-1 or 6-2.

Your thread title literally says ''best red clay player...''. Rios is one of the best red clay players ever, he won Monte Carlo, Rome and Hamburg. Yes its a mystery why he didnt translate it into an RG win but he should have been in the discussion from the jump. You have Harold Solomon in the mix ffs.

1998 he was actually sleeping until about 30min before his QF match. He could have won it that year but he had plenty of off court issues.

 

[buscemi]

Tom Okker, Martin Mulligan, Eric Sturgess.

Thanks! I added Okker, and Sturgess seems like a solid pre-Open Era pick. Mulligan seems like a good clay court player, but maybe a tier below.

 

[buscemi]

Your thread title literally says ''best red clay player...''. Rios is one of the best red clay players ever, he won Monte Carlo, Rome and Hamburg. Yes its a mystery why he didnt translate it into an RG win but he should have been in the discussion from the jump. You have Harold Solomon in the mix ffs.

1998 he was actually sleeping until about 30min before his QF match. He could have won it that year but he had plenty of off court issues.

Solomon made the 1976 French final by beating Gottfried (1977 French finalist), Vilas (1977 French champion), and Ramirez before losing the final to Panatta in a fourth set tiebreaker. That's pretty impressive. He also won his German Open title by beating Vilas in a five set epic.

 

[buscemi]

Ferru doesn’t even make the list

I'll add him now.

 

[Shaolin]

Ferru doesn’t even make the list

He didnt have Rios on the list to start with either. Probably has never heard of Ferrer.

 

[Shaolin]

Solomon made the 1976 French final by beating Gottfried (1977 French finalist), Vilas (1977 French champion), and Ramirez before losing the final to Panatta in a fourth set tiebreaker. That's pretty impressive.

Great, thats one good run. How many clay masters?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

If he was a bit mentally stronger he would have made the final in 2003, won the title in 2004 and scored a win over Nadal bo5 in 2005.




But I'm tempted to go with Soderling because he ended two of tennis's most famous streaks at Roland Garros too.

 

[buscemi]

Great, thats one good run. How many clay masters?

Solomon had three, arguably five French Open runs that were better than Rios's best French Open:

-the finals appearance in 1976;​

-beating Nastase before losing to Borg in four sets in the SF in 1974;​

-beating Gottfried and Vilas before losing to Borg in the SF in 1980;​

-beating Connors and Vilas before losing to Orantes in the QF in 1972;​

-beating Gottfried before losing to Borg in the QF in 1975.​

Solomon won the German Open, beating French Open champion Vilas in a five set final.

Rios won (1) Monte Carlo, beating Corretja in three sets in a B05 final; (2) the Italian Open w/a walkover over Costa in the final; and (3) the German Open, beating Zabaleta in a five set final.

 

[I get cramps]

It appears that Orantes' achievements haven't stood the test of time.

 

[DIMI_D]

Tsitsipas
Real answer orantes

 

[buscemi]

It appears that Orantes' achievements haven't stood the test of time.

Yeah, he really seems to have been lost in the shuffle:

-won the U.S. Open with an epic comeback against Vilas in the SF and a straight set drubbing of Connors in the final;​

-won the Masters on indoor carpet​

-43 titles (and 40 other finals), including 2 German Open titles; 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title​

-#2 when the initial ATP rankings were released in 1973​

-won an event in Madrid on indoor hard courts in 1968 by beating Santana, 8-6 in the fifth set in the final​

-silver medal at the 1968 Olympics when tennis was a demonstration sport, losing a five set final to Santana​

-won 23 doubles titles (including the Masters) and reached #1 in the world in doubles in 1975​

-made a French Open final, losing to Borg in five sets, and a Wimbledon SF, losing to Nastase​

 

[_phantom]

Alcaraz should be on the list

 

[SonnyT]

Djokovic in a strong era

Djokovic lives in the Nadal-14 era, the strongest ever.

 

[Shaolin]

Solomon had three, arguably five French Open runs that were better than Rios's best French Open:

-the finals appearance in 1976;​

-beating Nastase before losing to Borg in four sets in the SF in 1974;​

-beating Gottfried and Vilas before losing to Borg in the SF in 1980;​

-beating Connors and Vilas before losing to Orantes in the QF in 1972;​

-beating Gottfried before losing to Borg in the QF in 1975.​

Solomon won the German Open, beating French Open champion Vilas in a five set final.

Rios won (1) Monte Carlo, beating Corretja in three sets in a B05 final; (2) the Italian Open w/a walkover over Costa in the final; and (3) the German Open, beating Zabaleta in a five set final.

I dont think you understand your own thread.

You seem to be confusing ''Best RG player that never won RG'' with ''Best red clay player that never won RG''. Or you think RG is the only red clay tournament somehow.

Rios was one of the best red clay players in the open era. He never won RG for various reasons. Hence, he was one of the best red clay players that never won RG, regardless of any of his RG results. It honestly shocks me that you didnt include him in your initial list but whatever.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Rios was one of the best red clay players in the open era. He never won RG for various reasons. Hence, he was one of the best red clay players that never won RG, regardless of any of his RG results.

RG is the biggest clay event, so never making a SF there is a huge stain that leaves him behind the others that had great results outside RG and in it as well.

 

[buscemi]

I dont think you understand your own thread.

You seem to be confusing ''Best RG player that never won RG'' with ''Best red clay player that never won RG''. Or you think RG is the only red clay tournament somehow.

Rios was one of the best red clay players in the open era. He never won RG for various reasons. Hence, he was one of the best red clay players that never won RG, regardless of any of his RG results. It honestly shocks me that you didnt include him in your initial list but whatever.

Solomon was much better at the biggest red clay court tournament, going 36-12 (75%) at the French Open, with a final, 2 SFs, 2 QFs, and the great wins I listed above. Meanwhile, Rios was 17-9 (65.4%) at the French Open with 2 QFs.

Overall, Solomon was 276-123 (69.2%) on clay while Rios was 180-82 (68.7%), so Solomon is slightly ahead.

It is true that Rios has 3 Masters Series titles on clay while Solomon has two (German Open + Cincinnati on Har-Tru [admittedly not red clay]).

I don't think Rios's edge at the Masters Series level is enough to overcome Solomon's big lead at the French Open and overall lead in wins/winning percentage.

 

[Shaolin]

RG is the biggest clay event, so never making a SF there is a huge stain that leaves him behind the others that had great results outside RG and in it as well.

He won 3 Masters on clay which is equal or better than almost every other player in OPs list.

Rios was absolutely one of the best red clay players in the Open era.

 

[buscemi]

Alcaraz should be on the list

Thanks! I'll add him.

 

[Shaolin]

Solomon was much better at the biggest red clay court tournament, going 36-12 (75%) at the French Open, with a final, 2 SFs, 2 QFs, and the great wins I listed above. Meanwhile, Rios was 17-9 (65.4%) at the French Open with 2 QFs.

Overall, Solomon was 276-123 (69.2%) on clay while Rios was 180-82 (68.7%), so Solomon is slightly ahead.

It is true that Rios has 3 Masters Series titles on clay while Solomon has two (German Open + Cincinnati on Har-Tru [admittedly not red clay]).

I don't think Rios's edge at the Masters Series level is enough to overcome Solomon's big lead at the French Open and overall lead in wins/winning percentage.

Yeah SOlomon was a good/great clay player (admittedly I underrated him due to his ugly game) but it doent change the fact that you are placing all of your emphasis on RG. There are other red clay tournaments than RG. Back in the 90s Hamburg was a HUGE tournament. Rios won there plus 2 other Masters.

Your omission of him is clearly some personal bias for some reason.

 

[Shaolin]

Alcaraz should be on the list

Agreed. Should have won last year, shame about the cramping.

 

[buscemi]

Yeah SOlomon was a good/great clay player (admittedly I underrated him due to his ugly game) but it doent change the fact that you are placing all of your emphasis on RG. There are other red clay tournaments than RG. Back in the 90s Hamburg was a HUGE tournament. Rios won there plus 2 other Masters.

Your omission of him is clearly some personal bias for some reason.

It was just an oversight like Okker, who made the French SF (losing to Laver) and 2 QFs + won 1 Italian Open title; 1 Monte Carlo title; 1 German Open. I've now added both him and Rios to the list

 

[Tshooter]

Connors in five.

 

[Mainad]

Thanks! I'll add him.

Not saying that he's a natural on the surface at all but Murray did win a Madrid Open (beating Nadal) and an Italian Open as well as making the final of RG (beating the defending champion along the way). Don't those stats match or better some of those names on your list?

 

[buscemi]

Not saying that he's a natural on the surface at all but Murray did win a Madrid Open (beating Nadal) and an Italian Open as well as making the final of RG (beating the defending champion along the way). Don't those stats match or better some of those names on your list?

Yep. I'll add him.

 

[urban]

Tom Okker is often underrated. He was a victim of the promotional struggles and boycotts of the early 1970s. Due to his commitment with the tough WCT tour, he missed RG 1970-1972, in his prime years, when for instance in 1971, he ranked 2nd only to Laver in the WCT points race at years end.. Imo he was the better player than Kodes or old Gimeno, who won RG in those years, because they were ITF players then and could compete. In 1969, everybody saw in him the next great European and RG champion. he was excellent on all surfaces, but on clay his topspin forehand from an open stance was the most devastating. On clay, he won Italian 1968 over Hewitt, German Open 1970 over Nastase, Monte Carlo over Newcombe (himself a fine clay courter), Canadian Open 1973 over Orantes (2,3 and 1), Madrid 1973 over Nastase in sf and Fillol in f, Brussels, then a fine clay event, twice over Emerson and Nastase, WCT Louisville in 1971 over Drysdale, and his home Dutch Open 3 or 4 times. I think, he holds a positive hth over Nastase (what very few do), Orantes and Kodes. In Jeff Sackmanns greatest players list on Tennis Abstract, he is ranked Nr. 99.

 

[buscemi]

Tom Okker is often underrated. He was a victim of the promotional struggles and boycotts of the early 1970s. Due to his commitment with the tough WCT tour, he missed RG 1970-1972, in his prime years, when for instance in 1971, he ranked 2nd only to Laver in the WCT points race at years end.. Imo he was the better player than Kodes or Gimeno, who won RG in those years, because they were ITF players then and could compete. In 1969, everybody saw in him the next great European and RG champion. he was excellent on all surfaces, but on clay his topspin forehand from an open stance was the most devastating. On clay, he won Italian 1968 over Hewitt, German Open 1970 over Nastase, Monte Carlo over Newcombe (himself a fine clay courter), Canadian Open 1973 over Orantes (2,3 and 1), Madrid 1973 over Nastase in sf and Fillol in f, Brussels, then a fine clay event, twice over Emerson and Nastase, and his home Dutch Open 3 or 4 times. I think, he holds a positive hth over Nastase (what very few do), Orantes and Kodes. In Jeff Sackmanns greatest players list on Tennis Abstract, he is ranked Nr. 99.

Thanks for all these details about Okker. He seems up there with Orantes and Medvdev as the best red clay court players to never win the French.

 

[The Guru]

Murray actually has a strong case here how many other guys on this list made 5 semifinals at RG? 2 Masters titles too that's a damn good resume for someone who's weakest surface was clay.

 

[NoleFam]

Orantes over all the other ones.