Best Sawn Resistant Nylon/multi

sepidoel

Rookie
I love nylon string as main paired with soft poly as cross, its charactheristic is the best for me.

After more than a week hadn't played tennis I just realized the main problem for this kind of hybrid is the sawing effect even before it snap off. Today my nylon (Red Alert 16) was still in good condition but severely sawn, that made the cross locked-in. It greatly affected spin production and comfort while the power was still there (flat strokes like volley, serve and smash aren't affected much).

Makes me wondering what is the best nylon/multi for sawn resistant? Or is there any technique that can greatly help reducing the sawn effect? (I had lubricated the string but not helping much)
 
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I wonder why there's no single clue I get, is it:
1. The answer is too common;
2. Only experts are able to answer the question; or
3. The question is unclear/too weird?
 
From what I heard it stiffen the string bed, while my setup is the stiffest I can tolerate. If I can I'd like avoid using string saver. Anyway, thank you for the suggestion.

Here's an image I took:
p1020351cc.jpg


It was used 3x before left for about 10 days, and that was what I got after having another session.

Does this mean another journey of searching suitable string? ....... :-?
 
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Synthetic or multi mains with poly crosses isn't going to last long regardless of the string. If you only put a couple string savers in the most notched places, it doesn't change the feel much.
 
In the picture you can see that it evenly severe, I don't think it'll affect much for a few string saver. But I'll try that next time. :)

Another possibility is to have the poly strung at much lower tension. In my setup I strung the Wilson Red Alert 55 lbs and the Polystar Energy 52 lbs. How if I string the Energy 45 lbs, will it help reducing the sawing by much? What is the side effect on the performance?
 
Ouch, that's not good then. >.<
Oh well, I'll search some string savers and try it. Thank you very much,Up&comer, you've been very helping. :)
 
I love nylon string as main paired with soft poly as cross, its charactheristic is the best for me.

After more than a week hadn't played tennis I just realized the main problem for this kind of hybrid is the sawing effect even before it snap off. Today my nylon (Red Alert 16) was still in good condition but severely sawn, that made the cross locked-in. It greatly affected spin production and comfort while the power was still there (flat strokes like volley, serve and smash aren't affected much).

Makes me wondering what is the best nylon/multi for sawn resistant? Or is there any technique that can greatly help reducing the sawn effect? (I had lubricated the string but not helping much)

Yes, nylon or multi mains play well with poly crosses, but the mains are quickly sawn and soon break if you play with much spin and/or string loose. Nylon (and multis,and remember that multis are just many strands of nylon stuck together with an elastic glue of some kind, like polyurethane) has a tendency to cut very easily when under tension. This is well-known in the rock climbing community, because braided nylon ropes are used for safety during a climb because they are strong and elastic (they soften the impact of a fall because they stretch). They are also very abrasion resistant. It's not easy to cut a nylon climbing rope with a knife. But, if you put the same rope under tension you can cut it very easily.

The same thing happens with nylon strings, which are obviously under tension when strung in a tennis racquet.

In addition, the friction at the string intersections can generate a lot of heat if you hit with spin - in which case your strings are sliding and snapping back on each shot. All that movement and friction produces so much heat that the nylon strings will actually melt at the intersections, creating notches.

Why don't poly strings do this as much or as fast? Because they are 1) Hard. Not the same thing as stiffness. The surface of copoly strings are hard and difficult to dent with a sharp object. Nylon strings have low surface hardness and it is easy to dent them. 2) Slippery. Copoly strings tend to have very slippery surfaces, while nylon strings are "gummy" and sticky in comparison.

So how do you prevent a nylon string from getting notched or cut and then breaking? You could make it harder, and some manufacturers have tried, but if you put a hard coating on a nylon string that coating is usually less flexible (more stiff) than the nylon underneath. Since we like nylon strings because they are less stiff than copoly this isn't a good solution. Plus, coatings are not very thick and tend to wear off.

You could also try to make nylon strings more slippery. Several manufacturers have made nylon or multi strings with slippery coatings (Babolat Addiction, Yonex 850 Pro, Babolat Nvy, etc.) but these are usually too thin to withstand the sawing action in the mains for very long. They excel as crosses, where the friction and heat is spread out over an inch of string surface rather than concentrated at the intersection, but they are barely better than normal syngut as a main string.

Prince wrapped a nylon string in PTFE (like Teflon) and made Recoil. PTFE has a lower coefficient of friction than copolys and the strings slid and snapped back just like copoly strings. But in the mains they still got sawed and eventually broke because of low surface hardness. They would dent and eventually get notched. Once the PTFE surface was cut the nylon underneath would get sawn just as quickly as any other nylon string and then the string would break.

Maybe the most promising approach is to apply a lubricant to nylon mains. Even if your strings are deeply notched, applying a lubricant will reduce interstring friction, increase spin through the snapback mechanism, and to some extent reduce heat buildup (because of reduced friction) and thereby slow down the notching process. But lubricants are messy and must be regularly reapplied. They are not very popular.

Natural gut is a much better choice as mains paired with copoly crosses, for two reasons. 1) Although they are not hard, they do not melt like nylon (a plastic) and so do not notch in quite the same way. 2) The Tennis Warehouse University Professor thinks that natural gut may release natural oils from inside the strings onto the intersections as notches begin to form. This would be much like applying a lubricant, but without the hassle of doing so. So you have a self-lubricating string that doesn't melt. It's also much more elastic than nylon and so returns more energy to the ball. So you get consistently excellent spin, good durability, and good power. It also lasts much longer for me with copoly crosses than nylon mains do.
 
Wow, that was a mind opener for this topic. Thank you for the effort, corners. :)

Maybe the most promising approach is to apply a lubricant to nylon mains. Even if your strings are deeply notched, applying a lubricant will reduce interstring friction, increase spin through the snapback mechanism, and to some extent reduce heat buildup (because of reduced friction) and thereby slow down the notching process. But lubricants are messy and must be regularly reapplied. They are not very popular.

I used to regularly put some lotion to my string, but because reasons you mentioned I skipped it in many occasions.

It's interesting you said that by putting lubricant nylon as main will be sawn less. What I had in mind was lubrication would make the string move (literary) more, thus the sawing process would be faster... :oops: I'll lubricate my string from day 1 then.

Also, I'm thinking a solution: to pull the cross (poly) away from their straight position everytime after playing. The purpose is to stop the notching process on the main (nylon) while it's not in use. Can you think of its drawbacks beside it's a tedious, troublesome and wasting time effort?
 
Wow, that was a mind opener for this topic. Thank you for the effort, corners. :)



I used to regularly put some lotion to my string, but because reasons you mentioned I skipped it in many occasions.

It's interesting you said that by putting lubricant nylon as main will be sawn less. What I had in mind was lubrication would make the string move (literary) more, thus the sawing process would be faster... :oops: I'll lubricate my string from day 1 then.

Well, you may be right, but usually notched mains will still move around, while a notched cross will prevent the mains from moving. I was assuming that you put nylon in the mains because you wanted them to slide and snapback along the copoly crosses. If you literally don't want the nylon mains to move then you should use nylon crosses as well. With nylon strings going both directions, they will notch into each other and you'll get a "locked" stringbed eventually. But if you do want your nylon mains to move a lubricant will do the trick. Whether that will actually prolong their life, I don't really know. I tried nylon mains with copoly crosses several years ago and thought it played OK, for about an hour, then the nylon mains snapped. But if you're committed to that setup lubrication might be worth a try.

Also, I'm thinking a solution: to pull the cross (poly) away from their straight position everytime after playing. The purpose is to stop the notching process on the main (nylon) while it's not in use. Can you think of its drawbacks beside it's a tedious, troublesome and wasting time effort?

I don't think this would help. The notching is a result of the sawing, which isn't happening while your racquet is in the bag :)

This notching of nylon is the reason most people put the nylon in the crosses and the copoly in the mains. The slippery copoly mains still slide reasonably well along the nylon crosses and the copoly does a much better job of staying notch free in the mains than nylon does. Also, the stiffness of copoly strings is helpful in the mains because when they slide sideways during the impact with the ball, they don't slide too far, and so they have time to snap back before the ball leaves the string. If they slide too far and snap back too late you don't get any extra spin, which means your strings are sliding around and cutting into each other for no purpose, other than to reduce the durability of your string job. :)

Anyway, if you like a soft, spinny stringbed, I would recommend trying a soft copoly like Pro Line 2 in a full bed strung at low tensions - 35 in a mid, 38 in a midplus. I find this type of setup to be similar in terms of comfort and pop to nylon strung around 50, but the spin and dwell time are better, as is the durability. The copoly will lose tension, sure, but since the strings are so loose to begin with, the tension loss isn't as great or as noticeable as when strung at high tensions.
 
Excellent writeup in the above posting by "corners"!!!
So good, it deserves to be sticky-d at the top of this forum.
 
I don't think this would help. The notching is a result of the sawing, which isn't happening while your racquet is in the bag :)

This notching of nylon is the reason most people put the nylon in the crosses and the copoly in the mains. The slippery copoly mains still slide reasonably well along the nylon crosses and the copoly does a much better job of staying notch free in the mains than nylon does. Also, the stiffness of copoly strings is helpful in the mains because when they slide sideways during the impact with the ball, they don't slide too far, and so they have time to snap back before the ball leaves the string. If they slide too far and snap back too late you don't get any extra spin, which means your strings are sliding around and cutting into each other for no purpose, other than to reduce the durability of your string job. :)

Anyway, if you like a soft, spinny stringbed, I would recommend trying a soft copoly like Pro Line 2 in a full bed strung at low tensions - 35 in a mid, 38 in a midplus. I find this type of setup to be similar in terms of comfort and pop to nylon strung around 50, but the spin and dwell time are better, as is the durability. The copoly will lose tension, sure, but since the strings are so loose to begin with, the tension loss isn't as great or as noticeable as when strung at high tensions.

Perhaps you're right, I got paranoid with this notching thing. :evil:

I've tried full bed Red Alert 16 on my secondary racquet (Wilson K-95 Asian) and though it was quite good putting it in hybrid as mains was better (on my main racquet, Dunlop Bio 100). I like the better control and spin.

Actually I got better performance when I put the poly (Polystar Energy 17) as mains @55 and the nylon as crosses @52, but its stiffness hurt my shoulder. I'm not sure about being copoly, but many users said that PSE was a soft poly. I think I have very weak joints. :(

What do you think about locked crosses? I feel that also helps reducing spin potential and comfort. When my mains were in good condition I could produce some banana shots with my eastern FH, but when it was notched similar technique produced flying ball. I think when the crosses freely move the ball can sink deeper and thus give a spin boost - softer too. Is this a good logic?

Also I'm afraid to try very low tension. I tried hybrid with PSE as mains @45 before and it didn't suit my taste. I forgot why, but I cut the string just after a few hours.
 
What do you think about locked crosses? I feel that also helps reducing spin potential and comfort. When my mains were in good condition I could produce some banana shots with my eastern FH, but when it was notched similar technique produced flying ball. I think when the crosses freely move the ball can sink deeper and thus give a spin boost - softer too. Is this a good logic?

Locked mains would be great for flat shots, bad for spin. Probably really good for volleys. Actually, a thin graphite sheet with some texture would be even better for volleys, but really bad for everything else. :)

Yes, when the mains are free to slide and snapback this results in more spin, longer dwell time and less impact shock, according to some research done in Japan. I believe that this is why players who hit with heavy spin do not complain about copoly strings hurting their arms, whereas flat hitters refer to copoly as "elbow busters" and whatnot. If your copoly strings are fresh, meaning they are clean, un-notched and slippery, they will slide and snapback well and impact shock will be reduced. They will feel softer than their stiffness numbers would suggest. But if you don't hit with spin technique the mains won't slide and snapback, the dwell time will be short and the impact shock will be high. And if the strings are notched, dirty or old and scuffed up, they will also fail to slide and snapback well, and they will feel just as stiff as they really are.

Also I'm afraid to try very low tension. I tried hybrid with PSE as mains @45 before and it didn't suit my taste. I forgot why, but I cut the string just after a few hours.

If you have the resources and time, try a full soft copoly at 35 pounds and see what you think. Hybrids at low tensions play very differently than full copoly.
 
From personal experience, I've been very surprised by how durable Alpha strings are. It's weird, but both Alpha Hard Court SG and Alpha Prodigy (in red if you like it) have very durable outer layers. I've played with other SG's and multi's and they all fray. Neither of these two strings fray after several days of 3+ hours of play. In most cases, I cut them out because they go dead and won't snap back, but even then, the strings are fairly playable. Give them a try, what else do you have to lose?
 
@SwankPeRFection
There's no store selling Alpha string here. I'll try those if I happen to find them. Thanks for the suggestion.


@corners
That's what I got when I used poly/main and multi/cross when the multis frayed a lot. Felt awful. :mad:

But when nylon/multi is used as main the locked one is the cross string. I'd like to know what are the others thinking about this phenomena's effect on spin and control. Does it reduce the spin quite a lot just like what I feel, or is it just negligence?



Meanwhile I've done the lubricating technique in a bit further and it worked well. What I did was after playing I pulled all the crosses down toward racquet grip, put a little lotion and left it rested in that position. Before I used the racquet I pushed the crosses back to neutral position and wiped off the lotion (if you don't do this you'll get very dirty ball). It felt very comfortable and the spin was great.

After doing this I noticed that when resting there was a little notching process to the nylon by the poly. In the places where I put the crosses resting there were shallow notches - far from the ones produced by the sawing. That's why I think it's best for this setup to always pull down the crosses tight after playing to prolong its life.

Personally I'm willing to do the trouble, because for me there's no setup plays as good as nylon/main and soft-poly/cross (good for my elbow too) and more importantly I don't have the resource to always restring after 3-4 hours of playing.
 
I don't think this would help. The notching is a result of the sawing, which isn't happening while your racquet is in the bag :)

I have to disagree here. Yesterday I strung up a racket with multi in main and syngut in crosses. Haven't used it yet. This morning I took a look at it and noticed the syngut is already starting to notch. The pressure where the strings touch is enough to cause slight notching, and of course playing with it dramatically increases that notching.

The OP could try displacing the strings to the side before putting it away, but it will just develop notches in odd spots and cause the string to eventually get stuck there too.

I'm experimenting with string savers to see if that improves the situation (and hopefully add a bit more spin too!).

Cheers
 
I just spoke to the distributor about this issue with my "pre-mature notching" of the syngut. He said notching is when material is lost and what I'm experiencing is more like a temporary indentation. Although I think the main string will still get caught up in this, it's not as severe as a classic notching issue, like in the image that sepidoel posted above.

The synguy I used is a softer type as it has a thicker multi filament wrap, so that is probably why it indented so easily. I think next time I will get a stiffer syngut for the crosses.

Thanks
 
The OP could try displacing the strings to the side before putting it away, but it will just develop notches in odd spots and cause the string to eventually get stuck there too.

I was thinking the same too, but after observing my string movement I realize that the crosses are hardly move toward the grip (none in my case). That's why pulling them that direction won't make them stuck there - except if one pulls them too far.

Lately I had very few chance to play tennis so I can't add anything here.

Anyway, good luck on your experiment, siiva. :)
 
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