Best score against ATGs in a season

Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Best score (10+ matches) against ATGs (10+ Slam finalists)

1970 Laver 13-0 (100.0%)
1984 McEnroe 17-1 (94.4%)
1987 Lendl 13-1 (92.9%)
1969 Laver 10-1 (90.9%)
1979 Borg / 1989 Becker / 2011 Djokovic 12-2 (85.7%)
1986 Becker 11-2 (84.6%)
1988 Becker 8-2 (80.0%)
2015 Djokovic 15-4 (78.9%)
1971 Laver / 1995 Agassi / 2008 Nadal 11-3 (78.6%)
1985 Lendl 16-5 (76.2%)
1995 Sampras 8-3 (72.7%)
1980 Borg / 1982 Lendl / 1992 Sampras / 2013 Nadal 7-3 (70.0%)
1986 Lendl / 1994 Sampras 9-4 (69.2%)
2014 Djokovic 8-4 (66.7%)
2007 Nadal 9-5 (64.3%)
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Some impressive streaks:

1969-71 Laver 34-4 (although it's inflated by the 13-0 against Emerson who would not reach 10 finals in the Open Era IMO)
1979-81 Borg 24-8
1985-89 Lendl 51-18
1986-89 Becker 39-10
2011-16 Djokovic 56-24
 
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ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Red Rick said:
Same Roddick who though looping forehands and approach shots were a good idea
Click to expand...
But just a few weeks ago, I was told by many how Roddick saying the game past him by was absolute truth and can't be debated.

He played Federer 2006, and he played Nadal 2010,and saw Djokovic 2011 commentated on the 2015 Wimbledon final , the best big match from Djokovic that season and watched the match first hand.


He knows more than us Armchair persons. I believe him.








P.S: I don't.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Lew II said:
Best score (10+ matches) against ATGs (10+ Slam finalists)

1970 Laver 13-0 (100.0%)
1984 McEnroe 17-1 (94.4%)
1987 Lendl 13-1 (92.9%)
1969 Laver 10-1 (90.9%)
1979 Borg / 1989 Becker / 2011 Djokovic 12-2 (85.7%)
1986 Becker 11-2 (84.6%)
1988 Becker 8-2 (80.0%)
2015 Djokovic 15-4 (78.9%)
1971 Laver / 1995 Agassi / 2008 Nadal 11-3 (78.6%)
1985 Lendl 16-5 (76.2%)
1995 Sampras 8-3 (72.7%)
1980 Borg / 1982 Lendl / 1992 Sampras / 2013 Nadal 7-3 (70.0%)
1986 Lendl / 1994 Sampras 9-4 (69.2%)
2014 Djokovic 8-4 (66.7%)
2007 Nadal 9-5 (64.3%)
Click to expand...

@Lew II can you calculate the best score of ATGs vs players 35 years old or older?
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Lew II said:
Some impressive streaks:

1969-71 Laver 34-4 (although it's inflated by the 13-0 against Emerson who would not reach 10 finals in the Open Era IMO)
1979-81 Borg 24-8
1985-89 Lendl 51-18
1985-89 Becker 39-10
2005-13 Nadal 58-32
2011-18 Djokovic 60-26
Click to expand...

Agassi :

Federer without doubt the best of all time, says Agassi

Link:
Link.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Federer was born in the biggest generational hole. That's how 2003-07 happened.

ATGs (10+ slam finalists) opponents up to 5 years younger or older:

Borg = Connors, McEnroe
Lendl = Borg, McEnroe, Wilander
Sampras = Edberg, Becker, Agassi
Nadal = Djokovic, Murray
Djokovic = Nadal, Murray
Federer = ?
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
NatF said:
Nadal is within five years of Federer.
Click to expand...
200.gif
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
ForehandCross said:
People: Federer isn't in the generation of Djokodal, so he is the best of his gen.

Lew II: Look at these numbers, how many times he played Djokodal! He isn't even best of his gen.

Also Lew II: Nadal's not in the gen of Federer.
Click to expand...

to be honest, it's not only @Lew II it's the whole bunch of folks living in Wonderland
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
ForehandCross said:
People: Federer isn't in the generation of Djokodal, so he is the best of his gen.

Lew II: Look at these numbers, how many times he played Djokodal! He isn't even best of his gen.

Also Lew II: Nadal's not in the gen of Federer.
Click to expand...
I never said Federer is not the best of his gen.
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
blablavla said:
to be honest, it's not only @Lew II it's the whole bunch of folks living in Wonderland
Click to expand...

No he is not living in wonderland. I was trolling. @Lew II is nearer to the Truth.

Federer had a weak field in 2006. There were not many ATG in his time except Rafael.

I don't like to call 2004-05 weak,but they weren't stupendously strong either. 2006 and 2003 are weaker than any year I have knowledge of.

Federer did win on weak era.


But, there is only one man good enough to actually make most of it as Federer did. It's Djokovic.

It's very very easy to overlook how consistently dominant how high Federer's level used to be. I keep watching past matches and you have to understand how good Federer was on each surface.

Not only that Federer used to crush players who got hot. The Safin loss was the only one where he couldn't but he should have.

Federer won as much as he did because he had the level to do it. The only slam he didn't deserve was AO 2006.


Rafael never had the consistency surface to surface and year to year to do what Federer did. To repeat what Federer did, his 2010 year is the only form that can get him 3 slams, because all other years he was busy getting injured or blasted off the court in one or more slams.


My problem with people like @Lew II is underrating the years to the point of saying that Murray will repeat Federer's results. 2016 is his no. 1 year and he got trounced in USO by ANDERSON. He has never beaten Rafael at WB , and will have his problems with Rafa. He can forget sniffing any clay masters too. At AO, he lost sets to David Ferrer and Sousa. He got into 4hr+ battles with Raonic and then got Straight Setted by Djokovic. He will have his troubles there too.


But my point is Murray never could string high level of play for More than few slams together. Federer with exception of 2006 AO,2004 FO did it straight for 13-14 Slams.



13-14 slams he reached the semis, finals or won.

Murray or Nadal did not have that kind of stretch in their lifetime. There's a good reason even Rafael's SF streak even counting out his injuries don't compare to that.



Federer played in weak era, true. But In my knowledge no one but Djokovic could have done what he did.
 
Nadal_Django

Nadal_Django

Legend
ForehandCross said:
People: Federer isn't in the generation of Djokodal, so he is the best of his gen.

Lew II: Look at these numbers, how many times he played Djokodal! He isn't even best of his gen.

Also Lew II: Nadal's not in the gen of Federer.
Click to expand...
Well, people have funny definition about generations then. You don't play 90 times against two other players with being in a different generation than those 2 players. It's hilarious nonrational thinking. I don't think there is single player in the history of tennis, who played 90 times against two other rivals even from the same generation, (Nadal and Djokovic aside), not to mention from different generations.

Different generation are players like Laver and Borg, Borg and Nadal, or Lendl and Djokovic, not the players who have freaking 90 matches between them.

OTOH, to get back to the term you used here "people", we are not talking about everyday regular people here, didn't we, but about hard core fanatics, so in a way that thinking is quite understandable. ;)
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
Nadal_Django said:
Well, people have funny definition about generations then. You don't play 90 times against two other players with being in a different generation than those 2 players. It's hilarious nonrational thinking. I don't think there is single player in the history of tennis, who played 90 times against two other rivals from the same generation, (Nadal and Djokovic aside), not to mention from different generations.

Different generation are players like Laver and Borg, Borg and Nadal, or Lendl and Djokovic, not the players who have freaking 90 matches between them.

OTOH, to get back to term you used here "people", we are not talking about everyday regular people here, didn't we, but about hard core fanatics, so in a way that thinking is quite understandable. ;)
Click to expand...

You missed the entire point of the post.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Nadal_Django said:
Well, people have funny definition about generations then. You don't play 90 times against two other players with being in a different generation than those 2 players. It's hilarious nonrational thinking. I don't think there is single player in the history of tennis, who played 90 times against two other rivals even from the same generation, (Nadal and Djokovic aside), not to mention from different generations.

Different generation are players like Laver and Borg, Borg and Nadal, or Lendl and Djokovic, not the players who have freaking 90 matches between them.

OTOH, to get back to term you used here "people", we are not talking about everyday regular people here, didn't we, but about hard core fanatics, so in a way that thinking is quite understandable. ;)
Click to expand...
Whatever is the use of words we want to do, Federer lacks domination over great opponents.
 
RaulRamirez

RaulRamirez

Legend
He knows more than us Armchair persons. I believe him.

All of the pros (in all sports) know a lot more about their professions than I do, in terms of technique, preparation, strategy and the experience of, say, playing in the final at Wimbledon or RG, and what that feels like, I only know that second-hand. Heck, I was only a pretty good HS player who was/is an okay rec - mostly doubles player - now.

Still, I doubt that present and future players are as knowledgeable about career achievements of players as many people on this forum. They probably, to generalize, also don't care nearly as much as most of us do.

Similar to us, some argue coherently and objectively, and others don't. This is far from a knock on Roddick, who is articulate and witty. For what it's like to play Roger on the biggest stages, I listen to him and take mental notes. For rankings of players, seasons, etc, I try to do my own research and honest analysis.
 
TearTheRoofOff

TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
Nadal_Django said:
The armchair experts who take Roddick's opinion as the gospel here, are the same persons who mocked and ridiculed Federer's opinion that he is playing better in 2015 than in 2005.
Click to expand...
So, assuming you don't agree with Roddick here, how do we go about assessing who we agree with? Why do you not ridicule Fed's opinion? What's going to give?
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
RaulRamirez said:
He knows more than us Armchair persons. I believe him.

All of the pros (in all sports) know a lot more about their professions than I do, in terms of technique, preparation, strategy and the experience of, say, playing in the final at Wimbledon or RG, and what that feels like, I only know that second-hand. Heck, I was only a pretty good HS player who was/is an okay rec - mostly doubles player - now.

Still, I doubt that present and future players are as knowledgeable about career achievements of players as many people on this forum. They probably, to generalize, also don't care nearly as much as most of us do.

Similar to us, some argue coherently and objectively, and others don't. This is far from a knock on Roddick, who is articulate and witty. For what it's like to play Roger on the biggest stages, I listen to him and take mental notes. For rankings of players, seasons, etc, I try to do my own research and honest analysis.
Click to expand...

I was pulling legs, I don't put an iota of relevance to what experts say. I have my own opinions and don't need someone else to give it definite shape.
 
ForehandCross

ForehandCross

G.O.A.T.
RaulRamirez said:
Okay, but generally, do you agree with where I draw the line, and my reasoning?
Click to expand...

Yes I do. Mostly experts say things off the top their head. As you say they aren't as involved as us. I can bet my bottom dollar that if We asked the commentary team of ESPN, how many sets did Djokovic lose in 2008 AO and how many did he lose in 2013, something most people here can recall off the top of their head, 90% won't recall. I remember McEnroe struggled to remember a WB finalist and once Federer forgot the opponent of thebest final he has played, USO 2004.


People like Roddick don't count overall things, they go top off of their head. McEnroe is paid to keep interest in sport not to maintain consistency in his words. Federer is an competitive athlete, the last thing he wants is to feel he has lesser chances to win slams than before.


People like us who have spent around a decade watching tennis/playing tennis have enough understanding to start to debate such things better, but I doubt any of us can be conclusive.
 
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B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
ForehandCross said:
Federer had a weak field in 2006. There were not many ATG in his time except Rafael.

I don't like to call 2004-05 weak,but they weren't stupendously strong either. 2006 and 2003 are weaker than any year I have knowledge of.

Federer did win on weak era.
Click to expand...

you only can play the opponent that shows up on the other side of the net, isn't it?

Answer please 3 questions:
1. 15 of the GS he won vs someone else then Djokovic and Nadal in the final, featured either Nadal or Djokovic or both of them in the main draw, what was Fed supposed to do when reaching the final and the opponent wasn't Nadal or Djokovic?

2. if that was a feast during weak era, how do you call the era of USO 2018, USO 2019, W2019?
sorry, but having to go to the tiebreak vs a grand daddy in the 5th set, that's something very much telling that Djokovic is now feasting in the similarly weak era, isn't he?

3. if Fed is spanking regularly both Nadal and Djokovic being 39 years old, do you really believe that if they were of same generation that Fed would their "pigeon"?
being 5-6 years younger they can't send him to retirement and get spanked regularly, talking in TTW terms
 
Phoenix1983

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Lew II said:
Best score (10+ matches) against ATGs (10+ Slam finalists)
Click to expand...

The commonly agreed definition of OE greats is 6+ slams. (I presume you're including Laver/Rosewall/Newcombe in your stats, but they meet this criteria anyway)

Your definition includes all the above, since all 6+ slam winners in the OE (inc Laver/Rosewall/Newcombe) have reached at least 10 slam finals.

It also includes one, and only one other, man: Murray.

Please stop including Murray in your ATG stats for the sole reason to prop up Novak Djokovic.

Many thanks.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
If the thread was about the best score in a season against GOAT contenders it would be too easy

2011 Djokovic 10-1
2008 Nadal 8-2
2015 Djokovic 9-3

:D
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Lew II said:
Do I have to post all the stats in which Murray is superior to at least 2 players who are considered ATGs?
Click to expand...

yes, but please absolute numbers, ideally something like:
weeks at #1
GS titles
Masters titles

and please don't waste the time on:
cherry picking something multiplies by some BS factored another BS and here we go
 
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