D
Deleted member 757377
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This thread is about stats, not opinions. Thanks.
D
Deleted member 757377
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No, that can't be measured with precision.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
WTF Nadal was not at his peak on grass in 2005-2006. 2007 is debatable since Nadal was only 21. Even if we accept 2007 as more or less peak Nadal on grass, 2005 and 2006 are by no means peak Nadal on grass.
By general level of play in the top i think it's 2009/2011/2012.
D
Deleted member 757377
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28 highest winning percentages of the 2000s listed by year:
2000:
2001:
2002:
2003:
2004: 1
2005: 2
2006: 1
2007: 1
2008: 1
2009: 2
2010: 2
2011: 2
2012: 4
2013: 2
2014: 2
2015: 3
2016: 2
2017: 2
2018: 2
2000:
2001:
2002:
2003:
2004: 1
2005: 2
2006: 1
2007: 1
2008: 1
2009: 2
2010: 2
2011: 2
2012: 4
2013: 2
2014: 2
2015: 3
2016: 2
2017: 2
2018: 2
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Djokovic himself said 2018 Paris is his peak . However Khachanov defeated him in straights .
Khachanov Best Player of all time ??
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
D
Deleted member 757377
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#28 is higher than #29 (which is 2006 Nadal, btw)
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
D
Deleted member 757377
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I didn't manipulate #28 above #29.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
TMF
Talk Tennis Guru
And Sampras said he was playing some of his best tennis in 2002. Next year he retired.
Yes. The stats show that 05-07 are stronger years than 15-16. Thanks.
2007 definitely was even if 2006 wasn’t. And he was peak on clay from 2005 onward, proven by his 4 straight RG and clay masters dominance.
When Federer stated that 2015 is his best version reaction of TTW Federer fans was either that 1) Federer is mad or 2) Federer is corrupt liar. No fan has said "Federer is mentally healthy and he is man of integrity". I realised then that Federer has no fans on TTW. When he is overtaken in slam count same people that claim to like him now will ask "Federer who"? His destiny is destiny of Sampras who has done everything for his slam tally yet to be overtaken few years afterwards. Most likely, that will happen to Roger Federer.
Towny
Hall of Fame
This really is redundant stats manipulation. I think Djokovic 2015 is probably the best season in the open era, or at least top 4. But Nadal was garbage, Stan was intermittent, Murray wasn't at 2012,13 or 16 level except clay and Fed, while decent, couldn't cut it at the slams and wasn't at prime level. Why not just say how Djokovic went through prime Nadal and only recent past prime Fed in 2011. That was very impressive and most Fed and Nadal fans would agree 2011 was a strong competition year. No need to resort to this kind of stats manipulation to big up Novak
D
Deleted member 757377
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They must be invisible stats.
True Fanerer
G.O.A.T.
D
Deleted member 757377
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Funny.
That's why one single stat is meaningless and I post all kinds of stats (look at comments #1, 2, 3, 18, 56 of this thread, for example).
What other people said is irrelevant to me; and you didnt really answer my question either.
I wouldnt put too much into this. As i said, it wouldnt be fair by world #2 to say he wasnt at his best anymore. If you think 2015 is his highest level of play, thats fine, i dont agree.
We will see about the slam race, lets see if he can catch Nads first.
Nail on the head!
D
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They can be listed by surface too.
Hardcourt
2004: no.4 Federer, no.78 Roddick, no.83 Hewitt, no.106 Safin, no.145 Agassi
2005: no.11 Federer, no.122 Hewitt, no.124 Nadal, no.139 Agassi
2006: no.2 Federer, no.114 Blake
2007: no.6 Federer, no.55 Djokovic, no.145 Nadal
2014: no.16 Djokovic, no.18 Federer, no.95 Cilic, no.96 Wawrinka, no.99 Nishikori, no.131 Berdych
2015: no.1 Djokovic, no.32 Federer, no.62 Murray, no.101 Wawrinka
2016: no.9 Djokovic, no.13 Murray, no.85 Wawrinka, no.132 Nishikori
Clay
2004: no.56 Coria, no.70 Gaudio, no.113 Moya
2005: no.5 Nadal, no.141 Gaudio, no.144 Coria
2006: no.9 Nadal, no.86 Federer
2007: no.6 Nadal, no.63 Federer
2014: no.17 Nadal, no.71 Djokovic
2015: no.39 Djokovic, no.77 Wawrinka, no.113 Murray, no.121 Nadal
2016: no.22 Djokovic, no.57 Murray, no.134 Nadal
Grass
2004: no.21 Federer, no.89 Roddick
2005: no.12 Federer, no.89 Roddick
2006: no.12 Federer
2007: no.26 Federer
2014: no.34 Djokovic, no.89 Federer
2015: no.26 Djokovic, no.85 Federer
2016: no.12 Murray, no.104 Raonic
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Also that website doesn’t prove anything. The stats aren’t objective, they’re an interpretation.
Where it is an actual fact that Fed had ATG competition on clay (Nadal with 3 slams) in that period.
Djokovic had 0 ATG competition in 15-16 on any surface. Old Fed won 0 slams in those years. Murray won no slams vs Djokovic. Leaving only Wawrinka who isn’t as tough as Nadal.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
lol miles ahead
The exact difference is that Nadal won 2 Slams, Murray won 1 Slam and lost 2 finals.
Both won OSG
Both won 3 Masters
The difference in Slams is the outcome of one match.
Murray won the entire WTF undefeated, Rafa didn't play.
It's not 'miles' ahead.
Murray 2016 is probably the most underrated season of all times
SuperSpinner
Semi-Pro
The reason Lew is so obsessed in trying to prove Djokovic's competition was greater is because deep down inside he knows it's not true. Classic overcompensation.
Pheasant
G.O.A.T.
Strength of seasons is impossible to prove. Once could just as easily argue that a season is far less competitive if the same people keep winning. The fact that the top 10 goes deeper in tourneys now far more than they did 15-20 years ago only tells me that the far more homogenized and slower courts allow far fewer upsets by lesser players.
Look at the case of Rafael Nadal. He is awesome. However, he has been upset by much lesser players at Wimbledon since 2012. Crummier rackets and more diverse and faster surfaces caused far more upsets in the past. They are equalizers, just like bad weather is in other sports(snow, wind, heavy rain in American football, for example). Look at the case of Goran Ivanisevic. In 2001, he won Wimbledon as a wild card. He finished the previous year ranked 129th. The year before, he finished 62nd. He was clearly past his prime. But the conditions of the game allowed him to win a slam title.
Look at the case of Rafael Nadal. He is awesome. However, he has been upset by much lesser players at Wimbledon since 2012. Crummier rackets and more diverse and faster surfaces caused far more upsets in the past. They are equalizers, just like bad weather is in other sports(snow, wind, heavy rain in American football, for example). Look at the case of Goran Ivanisevic. In 2001, he won Wimbledon as a wild card. He finished the previous year ranked 129th. The year before, he finished 62nd. He was clearly past his prime. But the conditions of the game allowed him to win a slam title.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
The problem with Lew is that he tends to discredit a valid point by backing it up with statistics that aren't really interpreted in an unbiased way
That being said
I don't see how you can deny that Djokovic has had the toughest opposition out of the Big 3.
SuperSpinner
Semi-Pro
Because he has a losing H2H against Roddick. You can't just pick out names you think are tougher competition and conclude Djokovic had tougher opposition. That's begging the question. You must also consider matchups. Just because Roger defeated so many players from 2004-2007 doesn't mean Djokovic would defeat them as easily. Sorry but there is no way to conclude anything about competition. Making an opinion on this matter simply illustrates your biases.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic in 2009?
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Federer 2004-2007? Yes, when Djokovic and Nadal were babies.
= FEDERER 2006+2007 + 2004 + 2005 , MAC 1984, LAVER 1970, SAMPRAS 1993 + 1994 + 1997 CONNORS 1976 + 1974 + 1978, BORG 1978 + 1979 + 1980, DJOKER 2011 + 2015, + LENDL (1 or 2), + WILANDER 1988. And NADAL ? 1 or 2.
There are other players than Djoko
. Those are the three years i put on top. 2009 Big4 + Delpo were YE top5.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Why did Djokovic have a tougher competition than Nadal, exactly? Nadal had to beat peak Federer many times in 2004-2009 when Federer was 23-27 years old. Djokovic mainly faced Federer in his 30s (which is still meritory, but not the same than peak Federer).
Djokovic had a tougher competition than Federer though.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
I love Roddick more than any other player, but you're out of your mind if that is the reason to conclude that Djokovic didn't have tougher opposition than Nadal or Federer
Sport
G.O.A.T.
As much as I would love to tank 2009 higher than 2011... I can't. Why? Because I personally feel 2011 is the year that the Big 3 was more in form. Federer and Djokovic at the AO, Djokovic, Federer and Nadal at RG, Nadal and Djokovic at WB and specially Federer, Djokovic and Nadal at the US Open prove it. Djokovic had to beat Nadal and Federer in New York. I would never prioritize Del Potro over Djokovic to rank a year's strength. Djokovic is one of the 3 best players of all time, Del Potro is not even top 15. So obviously an in form Djokovic makes a tougher year than an in form Del Potro.There are other players than Djoko
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Red Rick
Bionic Poster
Nadal played Fed in his prime 4 times off clay in Slams. Djoko played Nadal more often at RG. Djokovic played him 4 times from USO 2007 to USO 2009 off clay Slams. I don't consider AO 2007 relevant cause Djoko wasn't quite ready yet.
Then after 2009, Djokovic had a lot more Slam matches vs Fedal than either Fed or Nadal. It's really top heavy competition.
SuperSpinner
Semi-Pro
I'm saying everything you think about what will happen is subjective. The bottom according to Lew is the data. The data show Roddick leads Djokovic in H2H. You may think Djokovic would lead eventually, but it's all speculation based on your biases. Roddick is just an example. For the same reasons you people think Federer played weak guys, but you do not know how those guys would do against Djokovic. In fact we do have some data. Those guys that Fed was beating up on in 2004-2007, Baghdatis, Roddick, Blake, etc. - when those guys were PAST their peaks, they BEAT Nadal in his peak year in 2010! So in fact, the data disagree with most opinions on the matter.
As a Federer-fan i agree on this one. Djokovic from 2008-2016AO was constantly battling Big4, and also Delpo/Stan in periods. His main surface was also HC, which is part of why i think he had it tougher. His "easiest" period late14-AO16 with Nadal in a slump and Federer past his prime.
NatF
Bionic Poster
When you look at competition yes Nadal's is miles ahead. And by competition I don't just mean names or ranking but the actual level of play/opposition throughout the year and especially in the big events Nadal won versus those Murray won - yeah it's no comparison at all.
Delpo at USO2009 was tough. Nadal was tough until grass season. Strong year for Murray. Strong year for Federer. Djokovic good, although not peak. He finished #3.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Let's say Nadal 08 was clearly better than Murray 16 before he got injured. Muryboat adding the Paris+YEC double drew him close, yep.
Towny
Hall of Fame
Not only that but you had a very strong late season showing from Davydenko as well as great runs in AO, RG and Wimbledon by Verdasco, Soderling and Roddick respectively. Nobody was safe and the WTF was crazy. Nobody could have completely dominated that year
NatF
Bionic Poster
Murray probably goes slamless in 2008 in Nadal's place...if we're rating these seasons on level of play then Murray's is placed just fine. Achievements wise it was a very good one slam year.
D
Deleted member 757377
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Murray and Wawrinka?
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