Best server of Big 4 without Federer

[Atennisone]

Federer with 11,365 aces, 77.36% of first-serve points won, 56,84% second serve points won, 88.82% of service games won is arguably the best of the big 4 to serve.

But who do you see as second best?

Djokovic - Average 5.4 aces per match (5722 aces), 73.61% of first-serve points won, 55.56% of second-serve points won, 85.81% of service games won
Murray - Average 6.8 aces per match (5708 aces), 74.50% of first-serve points won, 51.93% of second-serve points won, 81.90% of service games won
Nadal - Average 3.5 aces (3540 aces), 72.01% of first-serve points won, 57.42% of second-serve points won, 85.79% of service games won

So

Murray has most aces (serve is more than aces)
Djokovic has the most service games % won (service game can be down to clutchness)
Nadal has most second-serve points won (second-serve is not outstanding if first-serve is bad)

Who of these 3 has the best serve?

 

[Sysyphus]

Murray the best first serve, Djokovic the best serve overall because he has a solid delivery on both serves, whereas Murray's second serve looks like it escaped from a Girls 14 tournament.

 

[Biotic]

Murray's second serve is too weak, it always has been. Nadal is just ok most of the time, being a lefty helps obviously. Djokovic's serve is the best when it's on, with a habit of deserting him in big moments/matches. It's a weapon, tho not nearly as reliable as Federer's.

 

[Cashman]

Djokovic > Murray > Nadal and it’s not particularly close.

 

[Lew II]

Better question would be who has better serve between Nadal and Murray.

 

[6august]

The most interesting here is Freddo > Nolan > Andy > Rafa in that order not only in efficiency but also in asthetics.

 

[junior74]

You're only as good as your second serve.

Sorry, Andy...

 

[NatF]

Djokovic.

 

[Krish872007]

Easily Djokovic

Harder to pick between the other two.

 

[ibbi]

Definitely Djokovic. Statistically it might look close, but that's only because his serve only really got to this level in 2015. He played a decade without a weapon that strong or consistent. There were times when he was number 3 in the world where his serve was outstandingly bad, so that's certainly going to lessen his numbers.

The way that serve bailed him out of tight spots again and again in that 2018 Wimbledon semi, the way it kept him in the match when he was being outclassed off the ground in last years Wimbledon final, and the way it just generally totally transformed his fortunes when he came back with it in 2015 should put this beyond all doubt.

 

[Breakpointerer]

Djokovic and it isn't close.

 

[Wurm]

Overall, now, it's so obviously Djokovic I don't see how it's up for debate... but you'd have been laughed off the forum saying it was Djokovic in the depths of his 2009/2010 issues.

He finally solidified it to a very good level for 2011-2013. Boris then helped him up it again over 2014-2016, obviously the elbow problems buggered things up a bit over 2017/18 but now he's back up there and still looking to improve it.

Rafa's in second, particularly given how reliably good his second serve is.

As for Murray. Oh my. Murray's 1st serve is the most potent of the three when it's going in but it's subject to variability the rest of them don't have to worry about (now). I think Murray's second serve is often talked about with humourless hyperbole that ignores that his placement was always pretty solid and he varied it enough and had enough action on it that it shouldn't be judged on speed alone... but I don't think it's entirely unfair to suggest that for most of his career he had a second serve more befitting a 5'9" world #30 than a 6'2" world #4. I don't think it's a coincidence that the tear he went on in 2016 came off the back of upgrading his second serve, finally, in spite of not having the same bite on his ground strokes he had pre-back surgery.

 

[skaj]

Murray only for the first serve.

 

[RaulRamirez]

I'd go with Novak's serve, of the three...and yes, Fed's is clearly the best of the 4.
Interestingly, the overall percentage of service games won is so close between Novak and Rafa, and a slight dip to Andy.

To generalize, Murray may have the best first serve, and yes, (easily?) the worst second serve.
Novak has the best overall serve, and Rafa backs his serve up the best.

 

[Third Serve]

Djokovic by a mile and a half

 

[DSH]

Forget about Sampras and Federer for a moment.
Nadal would love to have Djokovic's serve.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Djokovic by a mile and a half

Correction:

 

[beltsman]

Federer with 11,365 aces, 77.36% of first-serve points won, 56,84% second serve points won, 88.82% of service games won is arguably the best of the big 4 to serve.

But who do you see as second best?

Djokovic - Average 5.4 aces per match (5722 aces), 73.61% of first-serve points won, 55.56% of second-serve points won, 85.81% of service games won
Murray - Average 6.8 aces per match (5708 aces), 74.50% of first-serve points won, 51.93% of second-serve points won, 81.90% of service games won
Nadal - Average 3.5 aces (3540 aces), 72.01% of first-serve points won, 57.42% of second-serve points won, 85.79% of service games won

So

Murray has most aces (serve is more than aces)
Djokovic has the most service games % won (service game can be down to clutchness)
Nadal has most second-serve points won (second-serve is not outstanding if first-serve is bad)

Who of these 3 has the best serve?

None of these stats indicate anything meaningful.

 

[King No1e]

Better question would be who has better serve between Nadal and Murray.

Nadal has one of the worst 1st serves for a top player, Murray has one of the worst 2nd serves.

 

[King No1e]

The most interesting here is Freddo > Nolan > Andy > Rafa in that order not only in efficiency but also in asthetics.

Absolutely! Fedr serve is IMO the most beautiful shot in tennis history (tied with Wawrinka BH). Djokovic has a great athletic-looking serve motion, too. Murray's just looks pretty standard and boring, and Nadal is.....well, Nadal.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Murray the best first serve, Djokovic the best serve overall because he has a solid delivery on both serves, whereas Murray's second serve looks like it escaped from a Girls 14 tournament.

Absolutely.
Imagine how good Murray was with that patsy 2nd serve. Give him Nole’s 2nd serve and he wins double the number of slams.

 

[Red Rick]

Murray the best first serve, Djokovic the best serve overall because he has a solid delivery on both serves, whereas Murray's second serve looks like it escaped from a Girls 14 tournament.

Murray's serve is just technically bad for 2nd serves imo. He just doesn't move upwards very much. I would know cause if my serve looks like anyone it's a drunk Murray caricature. Routinely hit baseline on 1st delivery.

But Murray's technique isn't the weird thing. It's Nadal's serve tactics. I'll never understand why a guy who served like Nadal did at the 2010 USO spent many a year OUTSIDE the top 100 in first% serve won while having one of the greatest shots ever to follow up with. It's like a top 3 life's greatest mysteries, along with the Fermi paradox and then a tie of the final resting place of Andy Roddick's forehand and the date The Netherlands will win the World Cup

 

[Breakpointerer]

a tie of the final resting place of Andy Roddick's forehand and the date The Netherlands will win the World Cup

 

[Red Rick]

Absolutely.
Imagine how good Murray was with that patsy 2nd serve. Give him Nole’s 2nd serve and he wins double the number of slams.

While Murray's 2nd serve is his most obvious weakness, I think in Big 4 matches specifically his forehand was actually a bigger problem. He can't really hit through Djokovic, Nadal or Federer, and he can't defend against these guys forever either.

 

[RS]

While Murray's 2nd serve is his most obvious weakness, I think in Big 4 matches specifically his forehand was actually a bigger problem. He can't really hit through Djokovic, Nadal or Federer, and he can't defend against these guys forever either.

And endrance for 2014/2015 Murray. Seemed to tire quickly.

 

[Red Rick]

And endrance for 2014/2015 Murray. Seemed to tire quickly.

Feel like he really only systematically got outlasted by Djokovic, who just defends much more efficiently

 

[RS]

Feel like he really only systematically got outlasted by Djokovic, who just defends much more efficiently

Actually a good point. But still in 2012-early 13 under Lendl his stamina and power was much better in the big matches.

 

[Sabrina]

I always have the impression that Murray tries to serve as flat as possible (1st serve) so that the % in is not that very high.

 

[skaj]

1st serve: Murray, Djokovic, Nadal
2nd serve: Djokovic/Nadal, Murray
serve: Djokovic, Murray/Nadal

 

[tudwell]

Key stat missing from the OP: Djokovic averages 65% on first serve, Murray just 58%. Murray’s first is bigger but far more inconsistent. Djokovic’s first serve actually wins him a lot more points in the aggregate simply because he gets it in much more frequently (and it’s still a good weapon in its own right, of course).

Djokovic is the best of the three and it’s not close.

 

[Mkiske]

1- Djokovic

3- Murray/Nadal

 

[metsman]

Murray's serve is just technically bad for 2nd serves imo. He just doesn't move upwards very much. I would know cause if my serve looks like anyone it's a drunk Murray caricature. Routinely hit baseline on 1st delivery.

But Murray's technique isn't the weird thing. It's Nadal's serve tactics. I'll never understand why a guy who served like Nadal did at the 2010 USO spent many a year OUTSIDE the top 100 in first% serve won while having one of the greatest shots ever to follow up with. It's like a top 3 life's greatest mysteries, along with the Fermi paradox and then a tie of the final resting place of Andy Roddick's forehand and the date The Netherlands will win the World Cup

Nadal ditched the big serve due to shoulder troubles that popped up in 11 IW/Miami or something IIRC.

Which makes sense, because his delivery resulting in 130+ mph serves means that the shoulder/armspeed is doing the vast majority of the work. His load and torque are very limited. I don't think he has the mechanics to truly have been a great server. In stretches though (parts of 08/10/13 and 17-now), he's made it work very very well nonetheless.

 

[Red Rick]

Nadal ditched the big serve due to shoulder troubles that popped up in 11 IW/Miami or something IIRC.

Which makes sense, because his delivery resulting in 130+ mph serves means that the shoulder/armspeed is doing the vast majority of the work. His load and torque are very limited. I don't think he has the mechanics to truly have been a great server. In stretches though (parts of 08/10/13 and 17-now), he's made it work very very well nonetheless.

He didn't need to be serving 130 all that time. Just the slider out wide 90% winning 72% first serve poitns for ages was just -20IQ tennis.

 

[metsman]

He didn't need to be serving 130 all that time. Just the slider out wide 90% winning 72% first serve poitns for ages was just -20IQ tennis.

Sure when he's not going well (like 2nd half of 09/2011 or 2015-2016) he defaults to that and gets killed a lot. But like I said when he's going well he mixes up the serve nicely and his overall serve is more effective.

 

[Hitman]

This is easily Djokovic overall, you can make good arguments about who is third between Nadal and Murray