Better Clay courter: Federer or Djokovic

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Hitman said:
This is the obvious answer.
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I wrote a blog back in 2013 saying Djokovic is better on clay than fed.

This is single most decisive issue for me in big 3 tennis. Everything else is clear cut.

If Djokovic clay dominance is removed , he and Roger are same players. It's the clay that separated the two in the end.
 
GrassMasters said:
You can't just say Hard Grass and Clay. It's obvious each tournament is different just with a quick glance at stats. If hard is hard then why did Novak won 10 AO and "only" 4 USO? Same for clay same for grass.
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Federer is better on fast hard court, that's for sure.
Federer is better on grass, regardless if it's slow or fast
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I wrote a blog back in 2013 saying Djokovic is better on clay than fed.

This is single most decisive issue for me in big 3 tennis. Everything else is clear cut.

If Djokovic clay dominance is removed , he and Roger are same players. It's the clay that separated the two in the end.
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Federer is no slouch on clay, but yes, Djokovic is greater on clay.

The guy was making RG semis at 20 years of age, and still making them at 38 years of age. Incredible.

On hard, Djokovic is better, on grass Federer is better IMO.
 
Hitman said:
Federer is no slouch on clay, but yes, Djokovic is greater on clay.

The guy was making RG semis at 20 years of age, and still making them at 38 years of age. Incredible.

On hard, Djokovic is better, on grass Federer is better IMO.
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Grok puts him at number 8 in open era (as of now) so obviously no slouch but Djokovic is 3rd or 4th.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Exactly.

There is no room to discuss when the gap is that huge. Give up.

What a random agression saying it's only numbers

When we give context like games won % and non Nadal event results and then you come crying back like a kid saying but but 2011.
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nolefam_2024 said:
It's only numbers when we compare someone like bil tilden usopen vs Federer. Not just numbers when fed and our nole faced nadal at nadal's peak. And in fact nole faced him more till 2022 where Nadal was winning rg. Unlike your fed who went AWOL for many times in his career on clay.
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nolefam_2024 said:
nolefam_2024

Thread 'Big 3 game win rates in absence of other guys'

Federer on clay overall - 56.97%
Federer on clay without Nadal - 57.89%
Federer on clay without Djokovic - 57.21%
Federer on clay without Rafole - 58.17%

Djokovic on clay overall - 58.8%
Djokovic on clay without Nadal - 59.99%
Djokovic on clay without Federer - 58.95%
Djokovic on clay without Fedal - 60.199%

Nadal on clay overall - 63.7%
Nadal on clay without Federer - 63.98%
Nadal on clay without Djokovic - 64.36%
Nadal on clay without Fedkovic - 64.71%

Federer on clay lost close to 1% games more just because of Nadal , 0.24% games due to Djokovic and 1.2% of games due to Rafole...
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Games won percentage in absence of Nadal

Federer on clay overall - 56.97%
Federer on clay without Nadal - 57.89%

Djokovic on clay overall - 58.8%
Djokovic on clay without Nadal - 59.99%


Over 2% more games won for Djokovic than Federer on clay with and without Nadal in the field.
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nolefam_2024 said:
A normal Federer fan will probably already have forgotten such match exists. Fed was number 2. Played Rome finals and Istanbul or some 250 win. Stan in great form thrashes fed. His only slam win.




Showing that losses are part of tennis. No one is unbeatable but context should be that while losses eventually happen, the wins is what matters in tennis. Unlike a normal fed fan saying only 2011 match matters and nothing else.
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nolefam_2024 said:
Tennis fans often fixate on a single match or event as a player's "peak" because these moments are emotionally charged and memorable, overshadowing broader statistical analysis. A standout performance—like a dramatic Grand Slam final or an upset against a top rival—can create a narrative of brilliance that resonates more than consistent excellence over time. These iconic moments, amplified by media and fan discussions, become shorthand for a player's greatness.

Statistically, a player's peak is better judged over a sustained period, like a dominant season or multiple titles, but fans are drawn to singular, vivid displays of skill, heart, or clutch performance. For example, a player might have a career-best year in 2015, winning multiple titles, but fans might point to a single epic Wimbledon match as their "peak" because it’s more visceral and easier to rally around.

This tendency is reinforced by:
- **Emotional Impact**: Fans connect with moments of triumph or adversity, like Federer’s 2007 Wimbledon final or Nadal’s 2008 Roland Garros dominance, over abstract stats like win percentages.
- **Media Narratives**: Highlight reels and commentary often elevate single matches, cementing them in collective memory.
- **Recency Bias or Nostalgia**: Fans may overemphasize recent matches or iconic ones from the past, sidelining consistent performance.
- **Rivalries**: Matches between giants like Djokovic-Nadal or Federer-Nadal are often seen as defining peaks due to their competitive intensity, even if they’re outliers.

Stats like career win-loss ratios, titles, or weeks at No. 1 paint a fuller picture but lack the storytelling punch of a single match. Fans prioritize what feels legendary over what’s empirically dominant.
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nolefam_2024 said:
In short what AI says is , when fans say peak, these are emotionally charged moments.

Eg. Fed toppling nole on 41 matches streak is matter of pride for fedfans. Just like Nadal toppling fed in Wimbledon 2008 is matter of pride for Nadal fans.

Both matches don't prove that the winner is better player.

But the emotional arguments did exist back in 2010s that peak Nadal would beat peak fed on grass. It's only in recent times after Federer went 6-1 non clay did Nadal fans agree fed best on grass is better than Nadal. What this shows is fans are reactionary in general.
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Nurse! They're out of bed again!
 
gamelovergold said:
Fedrer with all his greatness was useless against nadal in clay court.
Novak atleast defeated rafa two times.
Roger couldn't even had proper fight with Rafa .
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It’s complicated w Fedovic tho.

Like - so many are sure 2011 Novak would have done better than Fed in that final v Rafa. It’s a fair question given their respective years going into RG.

But then post peak Fed took peak Novak out in four in the SF.

And it wasn’t a fluke. Roger had been to 4 RG finals before that. Novak none. Fed also beat Novak the next year on his way to Winby crown in 2012. So 2011 wasn’t some outlier. As if Fed was just outmatched in their rivalry in slam matches. He was leading it out right.

So there is a match up issue in Fedovic that’s different for Fedal. Not to mention their age difference, and the question of Rafa’s age and career trajectory in the matches Novak won.

You just can’t say “because Novak beat Rafa more than Fed and won more on clay, he’s better than Fed on clay.

Stats wise, yes.

Best versus best?

Well, at the greatest clay tournament 2011 was the best data point we have. Post peak Fed didn’t need five to win strong v Peakovic. The larger question is more hypothetical, (see 2012) but I’d feel fine with my money on Fed.
 
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GoatNo1 said:
and it is even funnier if you compare them both on clay AND grass. and fed fans thinks that fed is better on both surfaces. BC he won in 2011 at RG and has ONE more W. nole has better W% at both W and RG (actually much better at RG)! he has 3 RG titles to feds 1 and that is 2 more but also 200% more. fed has 8 to noles 7 Ws which is 1 more but only 14% more! BUT W20 was canceled and nole was enorm favorite to win it winning 2 previously and 2 after. their h2h at RG is 1-1 and at W is 3-1 to nole and 3-0 in finals! and that is if we just compare slams not going into big titles as masters and OG that nole won at clay! so what logic fed fans use is biggest mystery of the universe!
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It's harder for Djokovic fans to use those arguments against Nadal, though ;)
 
ChrisJR3264 said:
How many were at RG?
8 of 11 were at RG.
Djoker 3-1 on HC and 2-1 on grass.

Considering 2/3 of the season is HC : edge Djoker Nole.
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2-1 to Nadal at the US Open ;)

How about Nadal winning 6 of their last 10 matches in the majors? In comparison, Djokovic won his last 6 matches in majors against Federer.
 
zakopinjo said:
8:2 on RG :)
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Nadal winning 8 times against a particular player at a particular major is an all-time record :)

The point is, at the very least Nadal held his own against Djokovic later on, while Federer lost all 3 Wimbledon finals to Djokovic that they had against each other.
 
Mustard said:
2-1 to Nadal at the US Open ;)

How about Nadal winning 6 of their last 10 matches in the majors? In comparison, Djokovic won his last 6 matches in majors against Federer.
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2-0 in austrailia. Considering nadals game was t as good on hard court and grass, I’d say djoker would’ve beat him more at both events.
 
Djokovic has double the top 5 and top 10 wins at RG not to mention what he did in the clay Masters. Djokovic is better and greater on clay. That 2013 SF should always be the standard when talking about peaks at RG. It's the litmus test and Djokovic went toe to toe with Nadal, and is the only player to go toe to toe with Nadal like that in RG SFs, when he's usually too tough to beat. (2013 and 2021).
 
NoleFam said:
Djokovic has double the top 5 and top 10 wins at RG not to mention what he did in the clay Masters. Djokovic is better and greater on clay. That 2013 SF should always be the standard when talking about peaks at RG. It's the litmus test and Djokovic went toe to toe with Nadal, and is the only player to go toe to toe with Nadal like that in RG SFs, when he's usually too tough to beat. (2013 and 2021).
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Matchups. Federer beat everybody except Nadal because of matchup issues with the 1hbh especially pn clay. Even wawrinka with his heavy attacking 1hbh found it impossible due to the physics of hitting a 1hbh above the shoulder.
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Because of 2011 peak Novak getting beat by a past prime Federer, have to go with Federer being the better player.
 
TMF said:
Not only Federer beat peak Djokovic on clay, but he snapped Djokovic's 41-match winning streak that year.

federer%20finger%20wag.gif.opt273x181o0,0s273x181.gif
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that feds fans so much speaks about that much as rafas about USO13 (he won the tournament so ok) just shows how great nole is when some of most memorable moments they have is a random win vs nole. ok i can understand little bit rafas fans, he won the tournament (even if he lost 11 out of 12 next matches and never again won a set on HC vs nole) but fed lost very next match in the same tournament. but,,, what can i know, he and his fans maybe enjoying being spanked by rafa!
 
sportsfan1 said:
Matchups. Federer beat everybody except Nadal because of matchup issues with the 1hbh especially pn clay. Even wawrinka with his heavy attacking 1hbh found it impossible due to the physics of hitting a 1hbh above the shoulder.
.
Because of 2011 peak Novak getting beat by a past prime Federer, have to go with Federer being the better player.
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Saying it's just a matchup issue is such a cop out when you're talking about the greatest clay player of all time. It's your duty to find a way to change up the matchup and find a way to beat him. There's no harder test in tennis and if you can't challenge him as much as the next guy, then maybe the next guy is better plus the next guy has a better record against top players on clay.

Djokovic beat Federer in 2012 in straight sets. Let's not pretend the match doesn't exist. 2011 wasn't Djokovic's absolute peak on clay anyway just like it wasn't on grass.
 
TMF said:
Federer is better on fast hard court, that's for sure.
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Even this statement is not that clear-cut.

Federer is 23-6 (79%) at Shanghai Masters with 2 titles.
Djokovic is 39-6 (87%) at Shanghai Masters with 4 titles.

Federer is 59-17 (78%) at Tour Finals with 6 titles.
Djokovic is 50-18 (74%) at Tour Finals with 6 titles.
 
Hitman said:
Federer is no slouch on clay, but yes, Djokovic is greater on clay.

The guy was making RG semis at 20 years of age, and still making them at 38 years of age. Incredible.

On hard, Djokovic is better, on grass Federer is better IMO.
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Djokovic is not better on fast hard. That is idiotic. An ancient Fed has embarrassed him multiple times at Cinci and Dubai. Fast hard is much more important as it was the prominent surface in the 90’s. Slow hard is a garbage surface that takes racquet skill out of the game and makes it for pushers and grinders.
 
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