Better clay courter: Thiem or Murray?

[clout]

I think we've seen just enough of Thiem to make this evaluation and it's a pretty close one.

- Thiem's made 2 RG finals compared to 1 by Murray (Murray's made the SF or better 5 times compared to 4 times by Theim)

- Murray has 2 Clay Masters compared to 0 by Thiem

- Thiem has 10 titles on clay compared to 3 by Murray

- Thiem's win percentage on clay is 75% compared to 70% by Murray

- Thiem's beaten 13 top ten players on clay compared to 10 by Murray

- They both have a win percentage of 80% at Roland Garros

- Murray's record vs big 3+Stan on clay is 4-16, while Thiem's record is 10-12 vs big 3+Stan on the red dirt

Thiem is clearly the "better" clay court player although I can see why Murray might be seen as the "greater" player since Thiem somehow still has zero Masters titles on clay, while Murray's won two of them (more than I initially thought). In a couple years, this shouldn't be much of a discussion if Thiem keeps this pace.

 

[Hitman]

Thiem is the better clay court player of the two, but right now IMO Murray is the greater clay court player since Thiem has zero wins at Master series level, Murray has Madrid and Rome to his name. This will no doubt change soon.

 

[Mainad]

Thiem is obviously the more natural player on clay but has underachieved on it so far despite his 2 RG finals. For Murray, clay is definitely his worst surface and he did not achieve anything on it until late in his career. However, he did eventually win 2 big clay titles (plus a small one) and made a final at RG. He was 2-3 years older than Thiem is now when he did that so there is obviously time for Thiem to catch up which I think he will do at some point.

In short, Thiem is the more natural claycourter but has yet to match Murray's achievements on it.

 

[3loudboys]

Thiem will no doubt end up with the better clay court record but respect to Murray for his two masters 1000 wins against 2 of the big 3. 2015 Madrid he beat Rafa 6-3, 6-2 and 2016 Rome beat Djokovic 6-3, 6-3.

 

[clout]

Thiem will no doubt end up with the better clay court record but respect to Murray for his two masters 1000 wins against 2 of the big 3. 2015 Madrid he beat Rafa 6-3, 6-2 and 2016 Rome beat Djokovic 6-3, 6-3.

Thing is Nadal was quite awful in '15 so I feel like Thiem could've beaten him easily in that finals as well if he was put in that position. The Djokovic one was very impressive though. Dom has lost some close contests against Nadal and Djokovic, as well as a botting Zverev

 

[tennis_pro]

I will be surprised if Thiem never wins the FO. Nadal won't be stopping him forever. No FO this year and he'll be 35 next year, Thiem will be 27/28. Matter of time IMO.

So to answer the question Thiem, DUH.

 

[clout]

I will be surprised if Thiem never wins the FO. Nadal won't be stopping him forever. No FO this year and he'll be 35 next year, Thiem will be 27/28. Matter of time IMO.

So to answer the question Thiem, DUH.

Didn't RG get postponed to September 2020? Or am I just hearing things and going crazy lol

 

[megamind]

Easily Thiem
Clay was Murray’s worst surface (though he was still pretty good at it)

 

[Noleberic123]

Thiem.

End of discussion.

 

[ibbi]

Thiem, easily. He's been a bit of a mental midget which has obviously hurt him, and had to play a better version of Nadal than Murray did for that brief window where he looked like a clay god, but day in and day out on the surface I'm taking Thiem more often than not.

Unless they're playing at night, in which case Muzza would probably come through handily. Most of his greatest non-Roland Garros clay court performances (Rome 2011, Rome 2014) for me have been night ones, and remembering the way Thiem after his famous Rome victory over Nadal in 2017 was dispatched in a night session in the blink of an eye by Uselessovic you have to think that like Rafa he's very much a When the Sun's Up kind of guy.

 

[tennis_pro]

Didn't RG get postponed to September 2020? Or am I just hearing things and going crazy lol

yeah good luck with any tennis in 2020

 

[Poisoned Slice]

 

[clout]

yeah good luck with any tennis in 2020

Yeah everything will have to go right for the event to occur. Many nations still haven't flattened the curve yet smh

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Thiem’s numerous wins on clay against Nadal along with two big wins at FO against Nole make this an open and shut case.
Yes, I get that he has underperformed at Masters events but Murray just hasn’t had the same number of quality clay wins.
Kudos to Murray for achieving nice success on his worst surface.

 

[daggerman]

I will be surprised if Thiem never wins the FO. Nadal won't be stopping him forever. No FO this year and he'll be 35 next year, Thiem will be 27/28. Matter of time IMO.

So to answer the question Thiem, DUH.

I, too, expect Thiem to win at least once at Roland Garros, but imo his window as the favorite to win there is pretty narrow. By the time Rafa (and Novak) finally decline significantly, Thiem will be faced with a pretty deep stable of emerging clay courters in Tsitsipas, FAA, Seyboth Wild, Garin, and Ruud (among others). Even the likes of Zverev, whom I don't think has the mental makeup to win a lot of slams, has the potential to be dangerous at any single slam and will probably keep improving.

Of course, it's possible that Thiem will improve as well, but you could argue he hasn't really improved much on clay since 2016 or so. It's possible he's already reached his ceiling on that surface.

 

[tennis_pro]

Yeah everything will have to go right for the event to occur. Many nations still haven't flattened the curve yet smh

more like the deciders haven't decided to flatten out the curve yet

 

[tennis_pro]

I, too, expect Thiem to win at least once at Roland Garros, but imo his window as the favorite to win there is pretty narrow. By the time Rafa (and Novak) finally decline significantly, Thiem will be faced with a pretty deep stable of emerging clay courters in Tsitsipas, FAA, Seyboth Wild, Garin, and Ruud (among others). Even the likes of Zverev, whom I don't think has the mental makeup to win a lot of slams, has the potential to be dangerous at any single slam and will probably keep improving.

Of course, it's possible that Thiem will improve as well, but you could argue he hasn't really improved much on clay since 2016 or so. It's possible he's already reached his ceiling on that surface.

None of them except maybe Zverev on a good day are even close to Thiem on clay. I also think he's getting better every year (but that won't continue forever obviously). I honestly think if not for the long SF Thiem would've taken down Nadal at the FO in 2019, his level was there, just couldn't keep it up.

 

[Steve0904]

My answer is Thiem, but not by much. I feel like if they played 10 matches on the surface they might split it 5-5.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Thiem, easily. He's been a bit of a mental midget which has obviously hurt him, and had to play a better version of Nadal than Murray did for that brief window where he looked like a clay god, but day in and day out on the surface I'm taking Thiem more often than not.

Unless they're playing at night, in which case Muzza would probably come through handily. Most of his greatest non-Roland Garros clay court performances (Rome 2011, Rome 2014) for me have been night ones, and remembering the way Thiem after his famous Rome victory over Nadal in 2017 was dispatched in a night session in the blink of an eye by Uselessovic you have to think that like Rafa he's very much a When the Sun's Up kind of guy.

On his Instagram chat with Djokovic Murray mentioned he played better in their SF match the next Day because of the sunny conditions

 

[daggerman]

None of them except maybe Zverev on a good day are even close to Thiem on clay. I also think he's getting better every year (but that won't continue forever obviously). I honestly think if not for the long SF Thiem would've taken down Nadal at the FO in 2019, his level was there, just couldn't keep it up.

They aren't currently. They're all much younger than him, so who knows what the landscape will be like 3 years from now.

But I agree that he would've had his chances in last year's final if he had been physically fresher.

 

[junior74]

Murray is a so much better player, he even makes his absolutely worst surface an opportunity.

 

[3loudboys]

Thing is Nadal was quite awful in '15 so I feel like Thiem could've beaten him easily in that finals as well if he was put in that position. The Djokovic one was very impressive though. Dom has lost some close contests against Nadal and Djokovic, as well as a botting Zverev

Pretty comfortable scorelines for Murray in both finals on his least favourite surface. Also Murray's record at RG in his last 4 years before absence was 2014 SF, 2015 SF, 2016 F, 2017 SF. Nadal didn't have his best season 2105 and would agree that Thiem would probably have come out on top had he met him. Still he's had plenty chances since and hasn't. Thiem over the long haul. Murray commendably improved his results on the dirt.

 

[Mainad]

Murray is a so much better player, he even makes his absolutely worst surface an opportunity.

Like all the best players, Murray has achieved big on all the surfaces including his worst.

 

[The Guru]

It's a lot closer than the poll would indicate. I'm not sure if Thiem's produced a level as high as Rome 2011 for example. Murray also beat Wawrinka and took 2015ovic 5 sets so he'd have a shot at 2019ovic plus I don't think Thiem even wins in the first place without all the crazy wind. I voted Thiem but as of now Murray is the more accomplished clay courter. I have no doubt that Thiem will surpass him though.

 

[Red Rick]

0 vs 0 in Slams

2 vs 0 in 1000s

Quod erat demonstrandum

 

[BeatlesFan]

Murray is a so much better player

Without any doubt, and Murray isn't mentally as weak as Thiem. There's also no question Andy has the superior clay resume. Thiem's 26 and hasn't even won a clay Masters 1000.

 

[ForehandCross]

Dominic.

Why are we even discussing this?

 

[Mainad]

Dominic.

Certainly more natural on clay.

Why are we even discussing this?

Have you not been reading the thread?

 

[Lew II]

About equal as of now. Peak Murray was more consistent but peak Thiem troubled Djokodal more.

In the future Thiem will keep adding to his game and be better probably.

 

[Mainad]

About equal as of now. Peak Murray was more consistent but peak Thiem troubled Djokodal more.

Except in finals.

In the future Thiem will keep adding to his game and be better probably.

Very likely. He will be 27 by the time the tour resumes but Murray didn't start achieving on clay until he was almost 28 so he still has time.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Better question: Thiem or Stan?

 

[Mainad]

Better question: Thiem or Stan?

Stan: 1 Slam, 1 other final. 1 Masters.

Thiem: 2 Slam finals, 2 500s.

Has to be Stan.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Stan: 1 Slam, 1 other final. 1 Masters.

Thiem: 2 Slam finals, 2 500s.

Has to be Stan.

It seems straightforward enough but I don’t entirely agree. For me, a good way to test one’s prowess on the dirt is to see how you do against the King. Stan never had to go through Nadal on his FO run. His one win in Nadal on clay was in 2015, which imo doesn’t really count as much as Thiem’s multiple clay wins against Stronger versions of the KoC. Stan has been brutalized in all his other meetings against Nadal on clay.

Based on titles, it’s obviously Stan. Based on consistently high levels and the ability to beat the best, I’d go with Dominator!
In any case, I’m hopeful, if not confident, that Dom will win more big titles on clay by the time he’s Stan’s age.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

It's a lot closer than the poll would indicate. I'm not sure if Thiem's produced a level as high as Rome 2011 for example. Murray also beat Wawrinka and took 2015ovic 5 sets so he'd have a shot at 2019ovic plus I don't think Thiem even wins in the first place without all the crazy wind. I voted Thiem but as of now Murray is the more accomplished clay courter. I have no doubt that Thiem will surpass him though.

As a Thiem apostle, I disagree!. (I came out with a thread in 2016 saying he would win slam titles before he was anywhere near the top 10).
Murray is a very good clay player but Thiem has been able to do something Murray never really could—hit Nadal and Djokovic off the court. He’s had some ugly matches, to be sure, but Thiem is improving steadily and is going to be winning more prestigious titles very soon.

 

[3loudboys]

Thiem certainly has got time on his side and will no doubt add to his tally if he can sharpen is mental game in the biggest finals. Stats to date by performance show Stan still currently the man with 3 slams one of them RG. Stan also has a M1000 on clay at Monte Carlo beating Fed in the final.

CAREER EARNINGS	WAWRINKA	THIEM
Turned Pro	2002	2011
Date of Birth	28-Mar-85	03-Sep-93
Age	35	26
Prize money (millions)	$34.3	$23.9
SINGLES CAREER STATS	WAWRINKA	THIEM
Career record win loss	523-301	284-152
Career record %	63.5%	65.1%
Career Titles	16	16
Highest ranking	3	3
weeks at #1	n/a	n/a
GRAND SLAMS	3	0
Australian	W (2014)	F (2020)
French	W (2015)	F (2018, 2019)
Wimbledon	QF (2014, 2015)	4R (2017)
US Open	W (2016)	QF (2018)
OTHER COMPETITION	1	0
Tour Finals	SF (2013, 2014, 2015)	F (2019)
Olympics	2R (2008)	n/a
Davis Cup	W (2014)	QR (2019)
MASTERS 1000	1	1
Indian Wells	F (2017)	W (2019)
Miami Open	4R (2009, 2014, 2017)	QF (2015)
Monte-Carlo	W (2014)	QF (2018)
Madrid (Hamburg up to 2008)	F (2013)	F (2017, 2018)
Rome	F (2008)	SF (2017)
Canadian	SF (2016)	QF (2019)
Cincinnati	SF (2012)	QF (2016, 2017)
Shanghai (Madrid masters indoor hard 2002-08)	QF (2013, 2015)	QF (2019)
Paris Masters	SF (2015)	SF (2019)

 

[mike danny]

It seems straightforward enough but I don’t entirely agree. For me, a good way to test one’s prowess on the dirt is to see how you do against the King. Stan never had to go through Nadal on his FO run. His one win in Nadal on clay was in 2015, which imo doesn’t really count as much as Thiem’s multiple clay wins against Stronger versions of the KoC. Stan has been brutalized in all his other meetings against Nadal on clay.

Based on titles, it’s obviously Stan. Based on consistently high levels and the ability to beat the best, I’d go with Dominator!
In any case, I’m hopeful, if not confident, that Dom will win more big titles on clay by the time he’s Stan’s age.

Actually, it's not always true. Look at 2009 Soderling and 2015 Djokovic.

 

[Start da Game]

op don't be silly, you know thiem is a far better player on clay........on a different note, i think it would have been the laugh of the century if murray managed to somehow defeat djoko in the 16 rg final.......

 

[zagor]

Thiem is better on clay but the gap isn't really that big honestly.

 

[Mainad]

As a Thiem apostle, I disagree!. (I came out with a thread in 2016 saying he would win slam titles before he was anywhere near the top 10).
Murray is a very good clay player but Thiem has been able to do something Murray never really could—hit Nadal and Djokovic off the court. He’s had some ugly matches, to be sure, but Thiem is improving steadily and is going to be winning more prestigious titles very soon.

I think we can say that Murray did it to Nadal in the final of 2015 Madrid and again in the semi-final of 2016 Madrid and to Djokovic in the final of 2016 Rome. I agree that Thiem has had more victories over Nadal and Djokovic on clay though. He just hasn't been able to do it yet in a big clay final.

 

[Sabrina]

Thiem is better. 2015-2016 Murray when he turned into Clayray for about 6 weeks wasn't far off.

 

[zagor]

I think we can say that Murray did it to Nadal in the final of 2015 Madrid and again in the semi-final of 2016 Madrid and to Djokovic in the final of 2016 Rome. I agree that Thiem has had more victories over Nadal and Djokovic on clay though. He just hasn't been able to do it yet in a big clay final.

Not just Djokodal, to date Thiem hasn't beaten anyone in a big clay final.

He might one day of course but I'm not a fan of giving future potential titles to a player who still hasn't gotten any (on his preferred surface)

 

[Red Rick]

Murray just DESTROYED Rafa in Madrid.

 

[Mainad]

Murray just DESTROYED Rafa in Madrid.

It's 2015 all over again!

Is this his best result against him since the 2011 Tokyo final?

 

[Breakpointerer]

Murray just DESTROYED Rafa in Madrid.

Only lost one point

 

[Mainad]

Only lost one point

Was Rafa injured?

 

[Breakpointerer]

Was Rafa injured?

Murray's just the better claycourter

 

[Mainad]

Murray's just the better claycourter

On video anyway.

 

[Red Rick]

Had to prove he wasn't rubbish at orange tennis

 

[DSH]

Thiem, by far!

 

[clout]

Fun fact: Murray has beaten Nadal the same number of times as Federer has (despite Murray getting many less attempts at doing so).