Better clay courter: Thiem or Murray?

Better clay court player: Murray or Thiem?

  • Total voters
    109
  • Poll closed .
Thiem, and it's not even close. How is this even a question? Give 2017/2018/2019 Thiem to face 2015 Nadal in Madrid final and he would have won the final with pretty much the same scoreline 6-3 6-2.
 
StrongRule said:
Thiem, and it's not even close. How is this even a question? Give 2017/2018/2019 Thiem to face 2015 Nadal in Madrid final and he would have won the final with pretty much the same scoreline 6-3 6-2.
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It's a question because the great CC master Thiem still doesn't have a single big title on clay.
 
zagor said:
It's a question because the great CC master Thiem still doesn't have a single big title on clay.
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Exactly which is why it should be much more of a debate than it shows in the voting. Fact remains that, unlike Thiem, Murray has won big on clay and beaten the 2 best claycourt players to do so.
 
Mainad said:
Exactly which is why it should be much more of a debate than it shows in the voting. Fact remains that, unlike Thiem, Murray has won big on clay and beaten the 2 best claycourt players to do so.
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Yep, not like Thiem shone when he had the opportunity to win a CC final without Nadal either, he got dumped in straights by Zverev at Madrid.
 
Mainad said:
Exactly which is why it should be much more of a debate than it shows in the voting. Fact remains that, unlike Thiem, Murray has won big on clay and beaten the 2 best claycourt players to do so.
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I don't think it's such a slam dunk in Thiem's favor either.
 
zagor said:
Yep, not like Thiem shone when he had the opportunity to win a CC final without Nadal either, he got dumped in straights by Zverev at Madrid.
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Zverev was in great form back then. Didn't he face 1 BP during the whole tournament? A much stronger opponent than Nadal was in Madrid 2015, that is for sure. Probably stronger than Djokovic from Rome 2016 final as well.

I have no idea why people are acting like Zverev is a nobody. At his best he is a very strong player.
 
StrongRule said:
Zverev was in great form back then. Didn't he face 1 BP during the whole tournament? A much stronger opponent than Nadal was in Madrid 2015, that is for sure. Probably stronger than Djokovic from Rome 2016 final as well.

I have no idea why people are acting like Zverev is a nobody. At his best he is a very strong player.
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Zverev's good in BO3 but that's still no excuse for getting thumped in straights for the supposed CC master, which I doubt Murray would have been for the record (if he was in-form, even on clay).

Thiem may have more potential on clay than Muzza but he's several leagues below him as a player and a competitor.

Let's not act like Murray was a mug at the FO either (since Thiem's main claim to fame is his conistent FO performance), he reached 5 SFs there. No way should the poll be so lopsided, not that it's surprising given how overrated Thiem is on TTW.
 
zagor said:
Zverev's good in BO3 but that's still no excuse for getting thumped in straights for the supposed CC master, which I doubt Murray would have been for the record (if he was in-form, even on clay).

Thiem may have more potential on clay than Muzza but he's several leagues below him as a player and a competitor.

Let's not act like Murray was a mug at the FO either (since Thiem's main claim to fame is his conistent FO performance), he reached 5 SFs there. No way should the poll be so lopsided, not that it's surprising given how overrated Thiem is on TTW.
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Federer and Djokovic both lost a few big BO3 matches to Zverev (and Djokovic was in almost perfect form coming into WTF 2018 final) but Murray would have never lost to him on clay? That's laughable. Zverev at his young age already has as many masters titles on clay as Murray.

Nobody is saying Thiem is an all time great on clay or something, but he is definitely better than Murray. Murray benefited a lot from the weak clay field in 2015-2016 with a very bad Nadal. He couldn't beat Djokovic (the only in-form player on clay during these years) in any relevant match. Thiem on the other hand entered his clay prime in 2017, exactly when Nadal came back to form. He was going to win Madrid 2017 against any other opponent, that is for sure. In 2018 he ran into a very strong Zverev. Actually, I think the real missed chance in Madrid was last year. He had chances to beat Djokovic, but he lost on the big points.
 
StrongRule said:
Federer and Djokovic both lost a few big BO3 matches to Zverev (and Djokovic was in almost perfect form coming into WTF 2018 final) but Murray would have never lost to him on clay? That's laughable. Zverev at his young age already has as many masters titles on clay as Murray.
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Losing to him in a straights set blowout? Yes, I don't believe in-form Murray is losing a masters final to Zverev in straights, on any surface.

A few wins Zverev scored against Fedovic in their 30s don't really impress me all that much.

StrongRule said:
Nobody is saying Thiem is an all time great on clay or something, but he is definitely better than Murray. Murray benefited a lot from the weak clay field in 2015-2016 with a very bad Nadal. He couldn't beat Djokovic (the only in-form player on clay during these years) in any relevant match. Thiem on the other hand entered his clay prime in 2017, exactly when Nadal came back to form. He was going to win Madrid 2017 against any other opponent, that is for sure. In 2018 he ran into a very strong Zverev. Actually, I think the real missed chance in Madrid was last year. He had chances to beat Djokovic, but he lost on the big points.
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Based on what? His impressive tally of 250 CC tourneys? The guy can't win a single big match on clay.
 
The more I think about this the more I want to change my vote to Murray. He is by far the more talented player overall. The gap is just much closer on clay. Feel like I just want to pick the player I like more because I can, and that's Murray.

The poll is ridiculously lopsided anyway, and it shouldn't be.
 
Thiem's a better clay courter but I'd still back Andy to win in most H2H scenarios. Thiem's more natural on the surface but I have a feeling Andy could figure him out.
 
zagor said:
Losing to him in a straights set blowout? Yes, I don't believe in-form Murray is losing a masters final to Zverev in straights, on any surface.

A few wins Zverev scored against Fedovic in their 30s don't really impress me all that much.



Based on what? His impressive tally of 250 CC tourneys? The guy can't win a single big match on clay.
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But Murray beating 2015-2016 Nadal is impressive? That makes no sense. Seriously, I'd pick an in-form Zverev over in-form Murray on clay. Zverev has a very high clay peak, and his main problem is that he can't bring his form to BO5. I feel like people are bring him down way too much.

Thiem had a big win over Djokovic in RG 2019 semifinal, better than any win Murray had on clay. He also beat a decent Nadal a few times.
 
MeatTornado said:
Thiem's a better clay courter but I'd still back Andy to win in most H2H scenarios. Thiem's more natural on the surface but I have a feeling Andy could figure him out.
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If Thiem can beat decent versions of Nadal and Djokovic on clay then I'm sure he can beat Murray too.
 
StrongRule said:
But Murray beating 2015-2016 Nadal is impressive? That makes no sense. Seriously, I'd pick an in-form Zverev over in-form Murray on clay. Zverev has a very high clay peak, and his main problem is that he can't bring his form to BO5. I feel like people are bring him down way too much.
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Murray also beat Novak in Rome, the same year in which Novak went on to win the FO title.

Either way, yes Murray winning big titles on clay is still more impressive than Thiem not winning any by the age of 26-27. Regardless of the amazingly high peak of Zverev lol.

StrongRule said:
Thiem had a big win over Djokovic in RG 2019 semifinal, better than any win Murray had on clay. He also beat a decent Nadal a few times.
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Novak was a nervous wreck in that match, mainly because of the very favourable scheduling Nadal received from his buddy Guy Forget. Not to mention that he hasn't really been a force on clay since 2016, 4 years ago.

Murray's win over Stan as a defending champ in FO semis is a comparable scalp.
 
StrongRule said:
If Thiem can beat decent versions of Nadal and Djokovic on clay then I'm sure he can beat Murray too.
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Tennis is a sport of match-ups. Timmy's a much better fit for facing Nadal's game. It's high risk, high reward and sometimes it pays off. Andy never played like that.

Beating Novak on clay in 2017-19 isn't that impressive to me because I think prime Andy would have a great shot against those versions too if given the opportunity.
 
StrongRule said:
But Murray beating 2015-2016 Nadal is impressive? That makes no sense. Seriously, I'd pick an in-form Zverev over in-form Murray on clay. Zverev has a very high clay peak, and his main problem is that he can't bring his form to BO5. I feel like people are bring him down way too much.

Thiem had a big win over Djokovic in RG 2019 semifinal, better than any win Murray had on clay. He also beat a decent Nadal a few times.
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Murray's win over 2016 defending champ Wawrinka in the SF > Thiem's win over 2019 Djokovic in the SF
 
Crearly is Thiem.
A more natural clayclourt game.
Able to beat the top 3 consistently on clay.
Murray started playing in very good levem last two years of his peak.
Thiem can still improve.
 
For the record, Thiem > Murray on clay, but let's not act like Murray doesn't even have any big wins on the surface himself.
 
NoleFam said:
Murray's win over 2016 defending champ Wawrinka in the SF > Thiem's win over 2019 Djokovic in the SF
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Lol, what did Wawrinka do on clay in 2016? Absolutely nothing. Djokovic in 2019 won Madrid and reached Rome final. For most people he was the favorite for the title. Aren't you saying that Nadal was in great form in 2016 because he won MC, even though that was one of the worst wins of his career? But Djokovic winning a title doesn't mean he is in form? :unsure:
 
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MeatTornado said:
Tennis is a sport of match-ups. Timmy's a much better fit for facing Nadal's game. It's high risk, high reward and sometimes it pays off. Andy never played like that.

Beating Novak on clay in 2017-19 isn't that impressive to me because I think prime Andy would have a great shot against those versions too if given the opportunity.
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But beating 2015-2016 Nadal on clay is impressive? Djokovic in 2019 was at least decent, probably better than decent. Leave alone the fact that he won 3 slams in a row before that RG.
 
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zagor said:
Murray also beat Novak in Rome, the same year in which Novak went on to win the FO title.

Either way, yes Murray winning big titles on clay is still more impressive than Thiem not winning any by the age of 26-27. Regardless of the amazingly high peak of Zverev lol.



Novak was a nervous wreck in that match, mainly because of the very favourable scheduling Nadal received from his buddy Guy Forget. Not to mention that he hasn't really been a force on clay since 2016, 4 years ago.

Murray's win over Stan as a defending champ in FO semis is a comparable scalp.
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Djokovic won 3 slams before RG 2019 and he was coming from a Madrid title and Rome final, just like in 2016.
 
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StrongRule said:
Lol, what did Wawrinka do on clay in 2016? Absolutely nothing. Djokovic in 2019 won Madrid and reached Rome final. For most people he was the favorite for the title. Aren't you saying that Nadal was in great form in 2016 because he won MC, even though that was one of the worst wins of his career? But Djokovic winning a title doesn't mean he is in form? :unsure:
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What did he do on clay in 2015 or 2017 outside of RG? He was the defending champ and back in the SF. Djokovic in 2019 hadn't done anything on clay for 3 years until then and certainly didn't play great and Thiem still barely put him away. I would say Murray's decisive takedown of Wawrinka, who played better than 2019 Djokovic, was more impressive.
 
NoleFam said:
What did he do on clay in 2015 or 2017 outside of RG? He was the defending champ and back in the SF. Djokovic in 2019 hadn't done nothing on clay for 3 years until then and certainly didn't play great and Thiem still barely put him away. I would say Murray's decisive takedown of Wawrinka, who played better than 2019 Djokovic, was more impressive.
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Djokovic was coming from winning 3 slams in a row and also was having a good clay season by his standards. (he never won more than 1 clay masters outside of 2011 and 2015 anyway).
 
StrongRule said:
Djokovic was coming from winning 3 slams in a row and also was having a good clay season by his standards. (he never won more than 1 clay masters outside of 2011 and 2015 anyway).
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Ok...but he certainly wasn't the RG defending champion and didn't play the level Wawrinka did in that 2016 RG SF. Wawrinka was 46/40 on winner to error ratio. Djokovic was 39/54. I stand behind my statement.
 
NoleFam said:
Ok...but he certainly wasn't the RG defending champion and didn't play the level Wawrinka did in that 2016 RG SF. Wawrinka was 46/40 on winner to error ratio. Djokovic was 39/54. I stand behind my statement.
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My point still stands, Thiem had some decent wins on clay. I feel like he gets lots of hate because he can't challenge Nadal in RG so far, and maybe also because he couldn't finish Djokovic in AO 2020.
 
StrongRule said:
My point still stands, Thiem had some decent wins on clay. I feel like he gets lots of hate on this forum because he can't challenge Nadal in RG so far, and maybe because he couldn't finish Djokovic in AO as well. But it's not like Murray has done better at these two slams.
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I like Thiem as a player and he does get a bad wrap around here but don't you do the same to Murray?
 
NoleFam said:
What did he do on clay in 2015 or 2017 outside of RG? He was the defending champ and back in the SF. Djokovic in 2019 hadn't done anything on clay for 3 years until then and certainly didn't play great and Thiem still barely put him away. I would say Murray's decisive takedown of Wawrinka, who played better than 2019 Djokovic, was more impressive.
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Well, I'm glad somebody isn't looking at just the name for a change. ;)
 
NoleFam said:
I like Thiem as a player and he does get a bad wrap around here but don't you do the same to Murray?
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Murray had lots of chances to prove everyone wrong and show that he can become a champion. But he just kept losing big matches one after another without even coming close to winning. Not good for a player who was compared to the big 3 for such a long time. You know, we can't make excuses forever.
 
NoleFam said:
I like Thiem as a player and he does get a bad wrap around here but don't you do the same to Murray?
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Thiem gets a bad rep mainly because he is the only good one in a sea of younger mugs. So people expect more of him mostly because he's the best we've got.
 
StrongRule said:
Murray had lots of chances to prove everyone wrong and show that he can become a champion. But he just kept losing big matches one after another without even coming close to winning. Not good for a player who was compared to the big 3 for such a long time. You know, we can't make excuses forever.
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Except he is a champion and a 3x Slam champion at that.
 
mike danny said:
Thiem gets a bad rep mainly because he is the only good one in a sea of younger mugs. So people expect more of him mostly because he's the best we've got.
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The one who has been disappointing for all his hype is Zverev. The other younger guys aren't mugs though (Thiem, Medvedev, and Tsitsipas). Now the generation before them is a different story.
 
mike danny said:
Thiem gets a bad rep mainly because he is the only good one in a sea of younger mugs. So people expect more of him mostly because he's the best we've got.
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Thiem isn't always a total mug though. Yes, he wasn't able to really bring his best against Nadal in RG, that is the problem. But for example in Madrid 2017 he played a great tournament. Nadal had to give everything to stop him. Thiem brings some very good form from time to time, but somehow he failed to win a big title on clay so far. He played a great tournament in Barcelona 2019 but unfortunately it was just a 500.
 
NoleFam said:
The one who has been disappointing for all his hype is Zverev. The other younger guys aren't mugs though (Thiem, Medvedev, and Tsitsipas). Now the generation before them is a different story.
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Isn’t Thiem in the same gen as the “generation before them?”
 
NoleFam said:
The one who has been disappointing for all his hype is Zverev. The other younger guys aren't mugs though (Thiem, Medvedev, and Tsitsipas). Now the generation before them is a different story.
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Zverev is disappointing in BO5. In BO3 he had some great performances. He is better than Tsitsipas for sure.
 
NoleFam said:
Technically, somewhere in between.
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He’s very much in a grey area since Thiem didn’t really become full time on tour till he was 21/22 years old so that’s why most people just think of him as a next gen even tho he’s closer in age to Kei, Milos and Grigor then actual next gen’ers like Med, Tsits, Zverev and Shapo.
 
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