Better Nadal period: 05-07Dal, or 11-13Dal?

[Kralingen]

‘05 Coria and Puerta were great clay opponents (see ‘05 Rome if you haven’t, total classic of a match)
‘05 Safin AO level incredible
‘05 Hewitt similar to ‘12/13 Murray
‘05-07 Roddick not great, but still a threat
‘05 Agassi/Blake great USO, ‘07 Gonzalez great AO, Nalbandian also a threat

David Ferrer made multiple Slam SFs and even a F in ‘11-13, I don’t think he’s much better than say prime Nikolai Davydenko of ‘05/07.

‘11-13 are similar to ‘05/07 but ‘06 was a crap year overall so brings the period down competition wise. Still winning 81 consecutive clay matches against any pro tennis players is an insane accomplishment.

of Nadal’s specific opponents, ‘05 Hewitt/Blake and ‘07 Gonzy are tough HC Slam opponents, and he was injured for Ferrer at USO ‘07. You can’t really defend Rafa’s ‘06 USO loss to Youzhny, that’s the one loss that really jumps out as being a WTF clownshow, but so do the Darcis and Rosol losses in ‘12-13.

 

[Silentchimera]

Lol I have been following Nadal since AO 2005..of course I remember. Why do people take some comments here so personally?

Rookie! You never even saw Hewitt vs Nadal 2004 AO.

 

[TheNachoMan]

08-13 is peakdal

 

[travlerajm]

‘05-07 being better than ‘11-13 field wise is certainly a very hot take. To illustrate my point, who do you think was the 3rd and 4th best player in ‘05-07?

Well, David Ferrer, a guy who relies heavily on his wheels, peaked physically in 2005-2007, and led the tour back to back years then in return stats. But curiously, his ranking didn’t peak until he was way over the hill and almost 30, when he finished #3 in the world in 2013.

 

[Gary Duane]

‘05 Coria and Puerta were great clay opponents (see ‘05 Rome if you haven’t, total classic of a match)
‘05 Safin AO level incredible
‘05 Hewitt similar to ‘12/13 Murray
‘05-07 Roddick not great, but still a threat
‘05 Agassi/Blake great USO, ‘07 Gonzalez great AO, Nalbandian also a threat

David Ferrer made multiple Slam SFs and even a F in ‘11-13, I don’t think he’s much better than say prime Nikolai Davydenko of ‘05/07.

‘11-13 are similar to ‘05/07 but ‘06 was a crap year overall so brings the period down competition wise. Still winning 81 consecutive clay matches against any pro tennis players is an insane accomplishment.

of Nadal’s specific opponents, ‘05 Hewitt/Blake and ‘07 Gonzy are tough HC Slam opponents, and he was injured for Ferrer at USO ‘07. You can’t really defend Rafa’s ‘06 USO loss to Youzhny, that’s the one loss that really jumps out as being a WTF clownshow, but so do the Darcis and Rosol losses in ‘12-13.

I didn't even have to think about it. It is also exactly when I came back to tennis - again. He was a more complete player. I believe NOW he is a MORE complete player, with the caveat that without youth his performance is more up and down, as is true for all older players. You put this Nadal into his young body and he would murder himself. All of the Big 3 were the same. They got better tactically, more skills, better strategies. All of them would murder their young selves if they could merge what they know now with the magic power of youth.

 

[aldeayeah]

Further proof that Ned peaked in 2005 and it’s all been downhill from there

To me the Epic Period ended in Madrid 2009. After that it's been Post-Epic Nadal with the occasional stint of Late Epicness.

 

[mike danny]

2005-2007 better on grass.

Clay is at least comparable.

2011-2013 better on HC.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

06/07 was better on clay and grass while 11-13 was better on HC. Simple as that

The true Nadal era comparison is MC05-Madrid 09 and then MC10-RG14 anyways

Alternately you could choose to separate out each surface prime. Clay 05-14, Grass 06-11, HC mid 08-13

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Anyone who picks 05-07 is on the same level as people who rate 14-16 Fed over 04-06 Fed

Comment reflects an overly simplified understanding of Nadal’s career. Certainly no more ridiculous than fans who claim 11 Nadal was as good as 08/10/13 Nadal despite opening the year with a quadriceps tear, service woes, and ill advised court positioning. It’s true that only one guy was in good enough form to punish him for it but I think that 06-07 Fed would have punished him for it on grass/HC as well (but not clay due to matchup differences)

 

[King No1e]

Comment reflects an overly simplified understanding of Nadal’s career. Certainly no more ridiculous than fans who claim 11 Nadal was as good as 08/10/13 Nadal despite opening the year with a quadriceps tear, service woes, and ill advised court positioning. It’s true that only one guy was in good enough form to punish him for it but I think that 06-07 Fed would have punished him for it on grass/HC as well (but not clay due to matchup differences)

He did start and end 2011 pretty weak, but I don't think any version of Fed would've dented Nadal's dominance between Miami and USO, nor would any other version of Djokovic.
It took a superhuman effort from Djokovic in 2011 to do what he did, and it showed by the end of the year. He never got back to those heights.

 

[mike danny]

He did start and end 2011 pretty weak, but I don't think any version of Fed would've dented Nadal's dominance between Miami and USO, nor would any other version of Djokovic.
It took a superhuman effort from Djokovic in 2011 to do what he did, and it showed by the end of the year. He never got back to those heights.

Meh, that's just hyperbole.

Peak Fed would have a great chance to beat 2011 Nadal at IW, Madrid, Wimb and USO. Nadal wasn't that great at those.

 

[King No1e]

Meh, that's just hyperbole.

Peak Fed would have a great chance to beat 2011 Nadal at IW, Madrid, Wimb and USO. Nadal wasn't that great at those.

IW for sure. Not convinced on the others. Nadal's mental advantage as tennis's unquestionable top dog can't be discounted.

 

[mike danny]

IW for sure. Not convinced on the others. Nadal's mental advantage as tennis's unquestionable top dog can't be discounted.

I can only form my opinions on how he performed and in those slam finals against Djokovic he wasn't that amazing. Peak Fed could certainly get him in one of those.

 

[MichaelNadal]

To me the Epic Period ended in Madrid 2009. After that it's been Post-Epic Nadal with the occasional stint of Late Epicness.

Exactly! Lol

 

[RelentlessAttack]

I don't think any version of Fed would've dented Nadal's dominance between Miami and USO, nor would any other version of Djokovic.

On matchup alone you’d expect 2011 Nadal to do better against peak Federer though on the flip side you’d expect 2011 Djokovic to do worse against 2006 Federer than 2011 Nadal. But I see this claim as highly hyperbolic. 2011 Nadal was certainly not as good at the AO as 09, had many better years at RG, not as good at the USO as 2010, and not as good at Wimbledon as 07-08. 06-07 Federer would have definitely had a good shot at Wimbledon/USO.

 

[mike danny]

On matchup alone you’d expect 2011 Nadal to do better against peak Federer though on the flip side you’d expect 2011 Djokovic to do worse against 2006 Federer than 2011 Nadal. But I see this claim as highly hyperbolic. 2011 Nadal was certainly not as good at the AO as 09, had many better years at RG, not as good at the USO as 2010, and not as good at Wimbledon as 07-08. 06-07 Federer would have definitely had a good shot at Wimbledon/USO.

Plus, 2011 Nadal wasn't the same speed demon as his younger self. The Fedal match-up became a bit different after 2009, but Fed himself exited his prime so Fedal then became age related.

And considering how crapola Nadal's serve was at 2011 USO, there's no way peak Fed wouldn't win vs him. He'd get too many chances on return.

 

[Adam Copeland]

On Clay - 11-13 > 05-07
On HC - 11-13 > 05-07
On Grass - 05-07 > 11-13

Since HCs are twice an year, better to pick 11-13 even if you feel 05-07 was no less a beast on clay than 11-13

 

[RelentlessAttack]

On Clay - 11-13 > 05-07
On HC - 11-13 > 05-07
On Grass - 05-07 > 11-13

Since HCs are twice an year, better to pick 11-13 even if you feel 05-07 was no less a beast on clay than 11-13

11-13 was not clearly superior on clay than MC05-Madrid 09, 81 match win streak, impenetrably fast and indefatigable Nadal.

 

[NatF]

Would put 2005-2007 as better on natural surfaces, 11-13 on HC so depends what you value more - HC is the biggest percentage of tour but it's 2v1 so I don't know.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Plus, 2011 Nadal wasn't the same speed demon as his younger self. The Fedal match-up became a bit different after 2009, but Fed himself exited his prime so Fedal then became age related.

And considering how crapola Nadal's serve was at 2011 USO, there's no way peak Fed wouldn't win vs him. He'd get too many chances on return.

Nadal was definitely slower but not that much slower. Based on the matchup dynamic I don’t think Federer would have rattled off 7 wins in finals in a row against Nadal like Djokovic did but I do think he’d have a great shot to get him on any of the faster courts

 

[mike danny]

Nadal was definitely slower but not that much slower. Based on the matchup dynamic I don’t think Federer would have rattled off 7 wins in finals in a row against Nadal like Djokovic did but I do think he’d have a great shot to get him on any of the faster courts

Fed would never beat 2011 Nadal 7 times in a row, I never claimed otherwise.

But to say that he wouldn't get him in at least a slam final is ridiculous.

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Fed would never beat 2011 Nadal 7 times in a row, I never claimed otherwise.

But to say that he wouldn't get him in at least a slam final is ridiculous.

I’d go so far as to say that if they met at all 4 slams in 2011 I’d give 06-07erer the better odds in 3/4. I view the 07 Wimbledon final as Nadal’s best grass match through the first 4 sets and Federer weathered that storm. I’m not sure I give even USO10 Nadal greater than 50% odds against him - I would expect a protracted battle either way.

 

[mike danny]

I’d go so far as to say that if they met at all 4 slams in 2011 I’d give 06-07erer the better odds in 3/4. I view the 07 Wimbledon final as Nadal’s best grass match through the first 4 sets and Federer weathered that storm. I’m not sure I give even USO10 Nadal greater than 50% odds against him - I would expect a protracted battle either way.

Yeah, peak Fed vs peak Nadal would be a 50/50 battle outside of clay no doubt.

 

[Deleted member 788697]

Meh, that's just hyperbole.

Peak Fed would have a great chance to beat 2011 Nadal at IW, Madrid, Wimb and USO. Nadal wasn't that great at those.

Nadal wasn't great in 2011 but he still beat Murray at 3 slams that year, so probably playing well enough to beat anyone other than Djokovic.
Nadal wasn't hitting the forehand-down-the-line much in 2011, but he didn't need it to beat Federer.

 

[mike danny]

Nadal wasn't great in 2011 but he still beat Murray at 3 slams that year, so probably playing well enough to beat anyone other than Djokovic.

Yeah, that's not how it works. Fed is a tougher opponent for Nadal than Murray is.

 

[Sabrina]

HC 11-13 > 05-07
Grass 11-13 < 05-07
Clay 11-13 ~ 05-07 (Or slightly worse since he was only really dominant on clay in 2012, in 2013 he won a couple of very close matches against Ferrer, was push to the absolute limit by Gulbis and of course that battle against Novak).

Overall I vote for 11-13 slightly

 

[Adam Copeland]

11-13 was not clearly superior on clay than MC05-Madrid 09, 81 match win streak, impenetrably fast and indefatigable Nadal.

Yeah but they will still beat the field anyway.
I would pick 11-13 Nadal for his HC play.

05-07 was not good in best of 5 on HC, that was just limited to BO3.... makes a big difference

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Yeah but they will still beat the field anyway.
I would pick 11-13 Nadal for his HC play.

05-07 was not good in best of 5 on HC, that was just limited to BO3.... makes a big difference

It’s basically just, do you value being better on HC or better on natural surfaces. No doubt 05-07 Nadal was forgettable at HC slams, but then 12-13 Nadal was worse than forgettable at Wimbledon and overall that period was less dominant on clay. Both periods contain some of his best career performances

 

[Adam Copeland]

It’s basically just, do you value being better on HC or better on natural surfaces. No doubt 05-07 Nadal was forgettable at HC slams, but then 12-13 Nadal was worse than forgettable at Wimbledon and overall that period was less dominant on clay. Both periods contain some of his best career performances

I value winning, so I pick 11-13 as he has a bigger shot at more slams and will definitely win more.

But if you ask me what I value and what sort of surfaces I would like to Tamper ATP with then my answer would be this :

Aus Open - Wood
French Open - Red Clay
Wimbledon - Green Grass like 1990s
US open - Carpets Indoors

 

[RelentlessAttack]

I value winning, so I pick 11-13 as he has a bigger shot at more slams and will definitely win more.

But if you ask me what I value and what sort of surfaces I would like to Tamper ATP with then my answer would be this :

Aus Open - Wood
French Open - Red Clay
Wimbledon - Green Grass like 1990s
US open - Carpets Indoors

im good with the last 3 but not wood lmao. have you ever played on a wood court?

 

[wang07]

As a Federer and Nadal fan, the Wimbledon 2007 Final is my second favourite match of all time.

 

[Adam Copeland]

im good with the last 3 but not wood lmao. have you ever played on a wood court?

Never played but whats wrong with Wood ? I heard it is very quick

 

[RelentlessAttack]

Never played but whats wrong with Wood ? I heard it is very quick

Very quick but with truer bounce unlike grass/carpet that give you a lot more room for slices and other touch shots. Would be the ultimate servebot competition with modern tech

 

[Adam Copeland]

Very quick but with truer bounce unlike grass/carpet that give you a lot more room for slices and other touch shots. Would be the ultimate servebot competition with modern tech

@RelentlessAttack - I have a better idea.

Tennis should also introduce rules limiting racquets of different types for different slams.

Like for example

AO - Wood (Will also be played with Wooden Racquets ONLY)
FO - Clay (Racquet head size will limited to 85 inches)
W - Grass (Racquet head size can be allowed to 100 inches here)
US - Indoor Carpets (Will also be played with Wooden Racquets ONLY)

Players will have to adapt to different racquets and different surfaces all simultaneously.