Better player on grass - Nadal until 2006 vs Alcaraz until 2023?

[tennis_pro]

Who do you think is the better grass courter between the 2 until the age of 20?

Alcaraz:
Wimbledon champion 2023
Queen's champion 2023 (beating Dimitrov, Korda, De Minaur in the last 3 rounds all in easy straight sets)
11-2 record at Wimbledon, 16-2 on grass overall
3 top 10 wins on grass including beating Djokovic in the Wimbledon final in 2023. Reached the final beating top tenners Rune and Medvedev both in straight sets.

Nadal:
Wimbledon finalist 2006
9-3 record at Wimbledon, 11-5 record on grass overall
No wins against any top 10 players on grass
Reached the 2006 Wimbledon final beating Nieminen and Baghdatis.

Also who do you think wins between 2006 Nadal and 2023 Alcaraz?

 

[Hitman]

Alcaraz is better on grass at the same age, he also went through better opposition to get to the final at W.

The way it stands for me,

On Hard and grass it is Alcaraz, on clay it is Nadal.

Nadal's peak level on clay is greater than Alcaraz's peak level on any surface, but Alcaraz's peak level on grass and and hard is better than Nadal's on those surfaces.

 

[weakera]

Why don't we ever do a comparison of Djokovic or Federer at 19-20 vs. Alcaraz at 19-20 on any surface? What's with the Nadal obsession?

 

[Deleted member 758560]

mirror of that thread, not bad, ok lets say once again its nadal

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Alcaraz slightly!

 

[UnforcedTerror]

Alcaraz is a much better tennis player off clay. That's all there is to it.

 

[ActualTennisPlayer]

Why don't we ever do a comparison of Djokovic or Federer at 19-20 vs. Alcaraz at 19-20 on any surface? What's with the Nadal obsession?

Because nadal and Alcaraz are ahead of djokovic and way ahead of Federer at that age?
Plus both are Spaniards and very physically fit and mentally strong at a young age

 

[weakera]

Because nadal and Alcaraz are ahead of djokovic and way ahead of Federer at that age?
Plus both are Spaniards and very physically fit and mentally strong at a young age

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation

 

[The_Order]

As far as wins against Ruud and Med... I'd back 2006 Nadal to beat them.

Problem for Rafa was he ran into peak Federer in the final. He played an incredible 3rd set and should have taken the 2nd set too. I can't see Alcaraz fairing any better.

Both had a terrible first set. Don't know who I'd give that one too... 50-50

2nd set I'd slightly favour Rafa

3rd set Rafa

4th set, both were average.. another 50-50

So if 23 Alcaraz is able to win both 50-50 sets, I reckon he'd edge him in the 5th because he's shown more clutch play at that point than Rafa did.

 

[RS]

Nadal 7-3

So 4/5

 

[tennis_pro]

Why don't we ever do a comparison of Djokovic or Federer at 19-20 vs. Alcaraz at 19-20 on any surface? What's with the Nadal obsession?

That's a compliement for Nadal, because both Djokovic and Federer were nowhere near as good as Alcaraz (or Nadal) on grass at 19-20.

 

[tennis_pro]

@ADuck

 

[weakera]

That's a compliement for Nadal, because both Djokovic and Federer were nowhere near as good as Alcaraz (or Nadal) on grass at 19-20.

Yes obviously, I am shining a light on that fact.

 

[serbiavic]

Don't like either, but it's Alcaraz.

 

[ADuck]

I'd favour Wimbledon 2006 final Nadal over 2023 Wimbledon final Alcaraz

 

[tennis_pro]

Don't like either, but it's Alcaraz.

Some people think that Nadal winning one tie-break set against Federer in the Wimbledon final somehow outweighs Alcaraz winning Wimbledon beating Djokovic (and 2 other top 10 players) in addition to winning Queen's beaing some solid grass courters. TTW in a nutshell.

 

[CoolCoolCool]

Tough call. Raz's overall skills are superior, but I think Rafa has the superior speed and defense. If they played each other, I'd imagine a tough 5 setter that could go either way. I'd give it to Rafa because I think he was a tad stronger mentally.

 

[StrongRule]

2023 Alcaraz wouldn't have won even one set against 2006 Federer in Wimbledon final. Would be lucky to get to a tiebreak.

 

[StrongRule]

Why don't we ever do a comparison of Djokovic or Federer at 19-20 vs. Alcaraz at 19-20 on any surface? What's with the Nadal obsession?

Great question.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Some people think that Nadal winning one tie-break set against Federer in the Wimbledon final somehow outweighs Alcaraz winning Wimbledon beating Djokovic (and 2 other top 10 players) in addition to winning Queen's beaing some solid grass courters. TTW in a nutshell.

you mentionin about ndal shoulda lost here and there smth in that 06 final but at the same time conveniently concealin about djoko leading at tb 3-0, lets imagine djoko showed up as tb monster again hence tiny losing it in 4 max, it was tossup match that wimby final and could go either way with ease, so i'd like to know in that case would you say the same now or not, or lets recall that silly miss in fifth set by djoko at the net forehand miss, plus we can recall that moment with windovic which is of course played against him in that case, so we can play this game too with who shoulda lost or not, isnt it

 

[tennis_pro]

you mentionin about ndal shoulda lost here and there smth in that 06 final but at the same time conveniently concealin about djoko leading at tb 3-0, lets imagine djoko showed up as tb monster again hence tiny losing it in 4 max, it was tossup match that wimby final and could go either way with ease, so i'd like to know in that case would you say the same now or not, or lets recall that silly miss in fifth set by djoko at the net forehand miss, plus we can recall that moment with windovic which is of course played against him in that case, so we can play this game too with who shoulda lost or not, isnt it

The fact is - there is no scenario in which Nadal is beating Federer in the final in 2006. He did well to push him to 2 tie-breaks and winning one. Alcaraz actually did beat Djokovic.

 

[StrongRule]

Some people think that Nadal winning one tie-break set against Federer in the Wimbledon final somehow outweighs Alcaraz winning Wimbledon beating Djokovic (and 2 other top 10 players) in addition to winning Queen's beaing some solid grass courters. TTW in a nutshell.

We are talking about peak Federer vs 36 years old Djokovic. That's very different opponents. For some reason you remember very well that Djokovic is old when it comes to Nadal beating him. But now when you have the chance to bring Nadal down, Djokovic is suddenly a tennis god at age 36?

 

[Kralingen]

Carlos clearly the better player on HC, no debate

Nadal clearly the better player on clay, no debate

Grass is hard to say I slightly lean Rafa though

Indoors? Carlos has done very little indoors as he was hurt/off the boil last year (did win NextGen finals in 2021 I guess) so arguably Nadal is better indoors (he won Madrid 05), obviously Alcaraz indoor season in 2023 is yet to come

 

[serbiavic]

Some people think that Nadal winning one tie-break set against Federer in the Wimbledon final somehow outweighs Alcaraz winning Wimbledon beating Djokovic (and 2 other top 10 players) in addition to winning Queen's beaing some solid grass courters. TTW in a nutshell.

Do you think Alcaraz pushes 2006 Federer at least to 5 sets?

 

[TheNachoMan]

Alcaraz will probably equal Nadal’s Wimbledon tally next year..lol

 

[tennis_pro]

Do you think Alcaraz pushes 2006 Federer at least to 5 sets?

No.

I think it would be similar to the 2006 Wimbledon final - the difference is Nadal did it on match-up, Alcaraz would do it, because he played at a higher level.

 

[The_Order]

The fact is - there is no scenario in which Nadal is beating Federer in the final in 2006. He did well to push him to 2 tie-breaks and winning one. Alcaraz actually did beat Djokovic.

So 2023 36 year old Djokovic on similar level to 2006 25 year old Federer?

 

[The_Order]

No.

I think it would be similar to the 2006 Wimbledon final - the difference is Nadal did it on match-up, Alcaraz would do it, because he played at a higher level.

What if Federer was a bad match up for Alcaraz?

 

[The_Order]

Alcaraz will probably equal Nadal’s Wimbledon tally next year..lol

He might even equal Djok's US Open tally next year too... lol

 

[TheNachoMan]

He might even equal Djok's US Open tally next year too... lol

Banter.

Alcaraz is leaving the big 3 with very little records left when it’s all said and done. Djokovic will still likely have his AO titles record, and Nadal will almost surely have his RG titles record. Everything else is up for grabs.

 

[The_Order]

Banter.

Alcaraz is leaving the big 3 with very little records left when it’s all said and done. Djokovic will still likely have his AO titles record, and Nadal will almost surely have his RG titles record. Everything else is up for grabs.

Time will tell.

The most frustrating thing for me is, there's no one to really challenge him yet... once Djok ages past the point of being able to be competitive with him, he will have the keys to the city to rack up majors unless someone else with serious talent shows up.

I'd be down for a new big 3 era for the next 20 years.

 

[tennis_pro]

So 2023 36 year old Djokovic on similar level to 2006 25 year old Federer?

Would 2006 Nadal beat 2023 Djokovic in a Wimbledon final?

 

[tennis_pro]

What if Federer was a bad match up for Alcaraz?

There's nothing to suggest that Fed would have a match-up issue with Alcaraz, he only struggled against players who played with heavy topspin like Nadal or Andreev for those who remember. Fed never struggled with pace until he was already 29/30ish. Some say the pivotal moment would be the 2009 USO final where Fed the usual arrogant goof that he is decided to go blow for blow with Del Potro and got burned.

Of course Alcaraz isn't only that, he's got way more variety and mental toughness, so it would be tough either way.

 

[Incognito]

Bagdhatis on grass in 2006 that played against Nadal was also way better than Medvedev that got slaughtered by Carlos in 2023.

Even @abmk would agree with me on this

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

He might even equal Djok's US Open tally next year too... lol

Very possible! Lol

 

[tennis_pro]

Grass is hard to say I slightly lean Rafa though

Based on what

 

[Razer]

Alcaraz at 19-20 is a better Tennis player than Nadal was at 19-20

Simple answer.

HC - Alcaraz
Grass - Alcaraz
Clay - obviously Nandal

 

[DSH]

Some people think that Nadal winning one tie-break set against Federer in the Wimbledon final somehow outweighs Alcaraz winning Wimbledon beating Djokovic (and 2 other top 10 players) in addition to winning Queen's beaing some solid grass courters. TTW in a nutshell.

Speaking only of Wimbledon, I think that comparison is very even.
Nadal would have liked to face a veteran version of Djokovic instead of peak Federer and Alcaraz, on the contrary, would not have felt like he had a chance if his rival was the version of the Swiss than a 36-year-old player, even though that tennis player is called Novak Djokovic.

 

[DSH]

Bagdhatis on grass in 2006 that played against Nadal was also way better than Medvedev that got slaughtered by Carlos in 2023.

Even @abmk would agree with me on this

Nieminen also showed more competitiveness than Rune when comparing their opponents in the quarterfinals.

 

[tennis_pro]

Nieminen also showed more competitiveness than Rune when comparing their opponents in the quarterfinals.

Gravitasbobivatis also showed amazing spirit in the first round when he took 7 games from Nadal.

Dafuq is this argument. Nadal had nowhere near the "hard to beat" aura on grass in 2006 as Alcaraz has now. Quite the opposite, a lot of players could push him hard cause they believed he was beatable.

 

[intrepidish]

If it's 2007 Nadal, no question for me, it's Rafa. Otherwise, there's not enough information here to judge. Alcaraz is an amazing player, and he beat a very solid Djokovic, but Djokovic is not in the same conversation with Roger in his pomp on grass. Neither one of Djokovic/Alcaraz is taking Roger to 5 in 2007 though perhaps Carlos will improve as well.

Talking about Ruud and Medvedev on grass is next to meaningless. It doesn't matter at all that Carlos beat them if we are talking comparisons to other prodigies.

 

[NeutralFan]

Noway to know it, Fed fans are Hypothetical scholars so I'll leave it that to them.

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Speaking only of Wimbledon, I think that comparison is very even.
Nadal would have liked to face a veteran version of Djokovic instead of peak Federer and Alcaraz, on the contrary, would not have felt like he had a chance if his rival was the version of the Swiss than a 36-year-old player, even though that tennis player is called Novak Djokovic.

As usual you speak a lot of sense. I agree. I agree that peak Federer makes a big difference here. I don’t think 2023 alcaraz beats peak Fed or even pushes it to 5.

Fed was nearly impossible to break at times back then.

 

[DSH]

As usual you speak a lot of sense. I agree. I agree that peak Federer makes a big difference here. I don’t think 2023 alcaraz beats peak Fed or even pushes it to 5.

Fed was nearly impossible to break at times back then.

A solo concert by Federer against Alcaraz: A three-act piece.

 

[The Blond Blur]

06 RAFA was better on grass. He had to face Peakerer who’s light years ahead of Oldovic. And as far as Tiny Carl’s competition on grass supposedly being tougher let’s actually dissect his draw this year. I’ll start from the 4R onward since that’s when things should be ramping up for Tiny Carl.

In the 4R he beat a slumping Berry (lol Berrettini Open, no?) who’s been struggling with form and injuries for the better part of a year and a half now. And as of this post he currently has a tour level record of 11-10. So barely above .500 for the year.

He beat Rune in the QF playing in his 2nd Wimby ever who went out in the 1R the year before. He’s done nothing on grass so far and is incredibly inexperienced. He was also coming off tough 5 and 4 setters vs ADF and Dimi the previous 2 rounds.

The Mad Lad who made his 1st Wimby SF this year when his previous best outing was the 4R 2 years ago. All he had to do to make the SF this year was go through the absolute “gauntlet” that was: Fery (WC), an ancient Mannarino, Fucsovics, Lehecka who retired after 2 sets, and going 5 sets vs Eubanks playing in his first ever main draw appearance at Wimby after failing to qualify for the previous 4 editions he was eligible for. This doesn’t even take in to account the fact that the Mad Lad matches up terribly vs Tiny Carl since he stands even further back than Oldal does to return serve. The dude is just begging you to come to the net against him. To put it simply the guy’s a HC specialist only.

Lastly, Tiny Carl met Joker in the F. It sounds tough on paper, Joker hadn’t lost on CC since 2013 (ofc this ignores all his other losses at Wimby in that timeframe). Was the 4x defending champ. He had all that going for him and yet he laid a massive Egg (pun intended) when it mattered most. The easy balls dumped into the middle of the net in the 2nd set TB. He went full on Zombieovic mode in the 3rd set getting fed a breadstick. He served a whopping 2 aces in a 5 set match to 3 DFs. He also hit 32 winners to 40 UFEs. On a faster winner friendly surface like grass these are very damning stats as far as evaluating his F performance.

Now 06 RAFA didn’t have a tough route to the F either and I’m not disputing that. But there wasn’t this huge mountain of disparity between their opposition either. And if you’re asking me (or him) who he’d rather play between 06 peak Fed and 2023 Oldovic I think the answer is obvious.

 

[tudwell]

If you look at the grass stats for their 20-year-old seasons (06 for Nadal, 23 for Alcaraz) on the ATP site, they're remarkably similar in all but one area: the first-serve return. In that, Alcaraz is considerably better, and that helped him break serve quite a bit more than 06 Nadal did. Of course, you have to take single-season grass stats with a pretty hefty pile of salt, since they're based on such small sample sizes, and these stats are built against very different players 17 years apart, but I think that accords with my own eye test. Alcaraz is better on the return – on grass – than Nadal was at the same age. I'd say his serve is a bit superior as well, but Nadal did well to match Carlos's 90% hold rate, I think in large part because of how dominating he is once the ball is in play.

Carlos has a ton of tools beyond the first and second shot – his net game and slice and general touch shots are more developed than 20-year-old Nadal's – but Nadal is just the best topspin baseliner that's ever existed. He can seemingly attack just as much as his opponent with like half the risk, if that. With one forehand he can put his opponent on a string, and he has so much margin on the shot that he can keep it going as if he were hitting totally neutral rally balls. He was also beasting from the backhand side as well in 06, at least in the final. Alcaraz is quite a bit less consistent from the baseline in comparison, and I think that's where Nadal makes up so much of his ground here. Alcaraz, I would say, is a bit better on serve and return and general all-court play, but Nadal is clearly superior at the bread-and-butter baseline play, and that goes a long way in the modern game. I give Alcaraz the edge overall, but Nadal was no slouch even in his first big grass-court run.

 

[weakera]

06 RAFA was better on grass. He had to face Peakerer who’s light years ahead of Oldovic. And as far as Tiny Carl’s competition on grass supposedly being tougher let’s actually dissect his draw this year. I’ll start from the 4R onward since that’s when things should be ramping up for Tiny Carl.

In the 4R he beat a slumping Berry (lol Berrettini Open, no?) who’s been struggling with form and injuries for the better part of a year and a half now. And as of this post he currently has a tour level record of 11-10. So barely above .500 for the year.

He beat Rune in the QF playing in his 2nd Wimby ever who went out in the 1R the year before. He’s done nothing on grass so far and is incredibly inexperienced. He was also coming off tough 5 and 4 setters vs ADF and Dimi the previous 2 rounds.

The Mad Lad who made his 1st Wimby SF this year when his previous best outing was the 4R 2 years ago. All he had to do to make the SF this year was go through the absolute “gauntlet” that was: Fery (WC), an ancient Mannarino, Fucsovics, Lehecka who retired after 2 sets, and going 5 sets vs Eubanks playing in his first ever main draw appearance at Wimby after failing to qualify for the previous 4 editions he was eligible for. This doesn’t even take in to account the fact that the Mad Lad matches up terribly vs Tiny Carl since he stands even further back than Oldal does to return serve. The dude is just begging you to come to the net against him. To put it simply the guy’s a HC specialist only.

Lastly, Tiny Carl met Joker in the F. It sounds tough on paper, Joker hadn’t lost on CC since 2013 (ofc this ignores all his other losses at Wimby in that timeframe). Was the 4x defending champ. He had all that going for him and yet he laid a massive Egg (pun intended) when it mattered most. The easy balls dumped into the middle of the net in the 2nd set TB. He went full on Zombieovic mode in the 3rd set getting fed a breadstick. He served a whopping 2 aces in a 5 set match to 3 DFs. He also hit 32 winners to 40 UFEs. On a faster winner friendly surface like grass these are very damning stats as far as evaluating his F performance.

Now 06 RAFA didn’t have a tough route to the F either and I’m not disputing that. But there wasn’t this huge mountain of disparity between their opposition either. And if you’re asking me (or him) who he’d rather play between 06 peak Fed and 2023 Oldovic I think the answer is obvious.

Recency bias is a powerful drug

 

[FeroBango]

Rosy nostalgia vs recency bias. Who wins?

 

[WeekendTennisHack]

Obviously 2006 Nadal had much better competition in 2006 Fed, maybe the best ever on grass. But we should consider the matchup advantage Nadal has on Fed too and why he gets closer to beating Fed than most. So perhaps on grass against the overall field, Carlos may have the advantage as we saw with Nadal losing in later years to a bunch of nobodies during his prime.

 

[duaneeo]

The fact is - there is no scenario in which Nadal is beating Federer in the final in 2006. He did well to push him to 2 tie-breaks and winning one. Alcaraz actually did beat Djokovic.

A 36 year old Djokovic whose own grass court prowess is greatly overrated because of a padded Wimbledon haul.

20 year old Alcaraz winning Wimbledon is impressive, but one can't ignore the long drought of strong grass court competition. The 2023 Wimbledon final consisted of two players who are three generations apart, and the reason is because no strong grass competitor emerged from the two generations of players between them.