Better player on grass - Nadal until 2006 vs Alcaraz until 2023?

Alcaraz or Nadal?


  • Total voters
    55

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
There's nothing to suggest that Fed would have a match-up issue with Alcaraz, he only struggled against players who played with heavy topspin like Nadal or Andreev for those who remember. Fed never struggled with pace until he was already 29/30ish. Some say the pivotal moment would be the 2009 USO final where Fed the usual arrogant goof that he is decided to go blow for blow with Del Potro and got burned.

Of course Alcaraz isn't only that, he's got way more variety and mental toughness, so it would be tough either way.

You've got it the wrong way around... I said what if Fed is a bad match up for Alcaraz?

Djok served like crap in the WIM final... Fed's serve at his best I think Alcaraz will really struggle to deal with that...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Would 2006 Nadal beat 2023 Djokovic in a Wimbledon final?

yes, 06 Wim Nadal would beat 23 Wim djokovic in 4 sets most likely.
he played peak fed close in the middle 2 sets. decent 4th set.
and also put in an excellent performance vs baggy in the SF - which tends to get ignored.
that was baggy's best year and he had beaten hewitt in the QF. nadal beat him without getting broken or losing a set in the semi. (saved 9/9 BPs)
 
Last edited:

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Would 2006 Nadal beat 2023 Djokovic in a Wimbledon final?

Probably. Djok wasn't playing anywhere near the level of 2006 Federer. Match-ups aside, I think Djok's level in WIM23 was so far below Fed WIM06 that despite him being a bad matchup for Nadal, Rafa would still take him down.
 

jl809

Legend
Alcaraz is better on grass at the same age, he also went through better opposition to get to the final at W.

The way it stands for me,

On Hard and grass it is Alcaraz, on clay it is Nadal.

Nadal's peak level on clay is greater than Alcaraz's peak level on any surface, but Alcaraz's peak level on grass and and hard is better than Nadal's on those surfaces.
Peak Alcaraz on grass vs 06 Fed in the Wimby Final?
 
Recency bias is a powerful drug
To be fair I agree with you guys regarding level of play. I’d give the edge to Nadal.

As like @The Blond Blur says Alcaraz draw wasn’t that tough. He made it look easy to final. Due to being that good but also weaker competition. Djoko played well in final but had spells where he was inconsistent/poor play or failed on some big points.

Peak Federer is still the hardest challenge ever on a grass court and Nadal has that disadvantage which Carlos didn’t have to face.
 
Alcaraz, and it's no contest. Nadal was a great player in general in 2006, but his grass game was very underdeveloped. Alcaraz, with just two tournaments under his belt, cleaned the grass season, beating the strong favorite (and multi-Wimbledon champion) Djokovic. There is no comparison, Alcaraz's net game is light years away from Nadal's net game. Nadal was a great player that did very well on grass, not a great grass player.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
You've got it the wrong way around... I said what if Fed is a bad match up for Alcaraz?

Djok served like crap in the WIM final... Fed's serve at his best I think Alcaraz will really struggle to deal with that...
Well everyone will struggle against that
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Peak Fed in 4 sets for me. He’s serve much better than djoko did.

I think Feds FH on grass as well as his all round grass game would give him the edge. Alcaraz would put up a great fight though.

I think there is a bit confusion regarding what better player is. Put who he faced or not faced to one side, Alcaraz is a better player on grass, because he has a more complete game for it at the same age, his forecourt game, his dropshots, his feel, volleys are better than what Nadal had back in 2006.
 
I think we are a few years away from seeing peak Alcaraz, so cannot answer that question. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
I think the one in the Wimbledon final would lose in 4. In my opinion Feds lethal serve and FH would have been the difference. Fed moved great on the grass a well.

That said Alcaraz may get even better but on what we seen at Wimbledon 2023 I’d say peak Fed in 4 sets with maybe 1 or 2 tiebreaks. It would be fun match though.
 
Regardless of how competition might affect the assessment, whether Djokovic has declined enough to be a factor, etc, perform the eye test. Compare how Alcaraz plays on Wimbledon and how Nadal played. Alcaraz is the superior grass player by all accounts. Nadal played on grass in 2006 largely how he played elsewhere, he just could get away with it because he was so good in general.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
I think the one in the Wimbledon final would lose in 4. In my opinion Feds lethal serve and FH would have been the difference. Fed moved great on the grass a well.

That said Alcaraz may get even better but on what we seen at Wimbledon 2023 I’d say peak Fed in 4 sets with maybe 1 or 2 tiebreaks. It would be fun match though.

I agree about the current Alcaraz, he isn't beating peak Federer, but we haven't seen peak Alcaraz yet, so lets wait and see, and give him a few years. Federer in 2006 was 25 I think.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
I think the one in the Wimbledon final would lose in 4. In my opinion Feds lethal serve and FH would have been the difference. Fed moved great on the grass a well.

That said Alcaraz may get even better but on what we seen at Wimbledon 2023 I’d say peak Fed in 4 sets with maybe 1 or 2 tiebreaks. It would be fun match though.

Not to mention Fed's ability to half volley... I can imagine a lot of Alcaraz power shots being redirected back with interest off the back of Fed's brilliant half volleys...

Then there's that Fed slice on grass that ONLY Nadal had the ability to neutralise...
 
Not to mention Fed's ability to half volley... I can imagine a lot of Alcaraz power shots being redirected back with interest off the back of Fed's brilliant half volleys...

Then there's that Fed slice on grass that ONLY Nadal had the ability to neutralise...
Yeah I agree. Fed overall variety would have affected Alcaraz more. He is better at the slice, net play and volleys than Djoker so would have been tougher for Alcaraz in that respect. He used to rush players very well did Fed.

Fed was also an insane returner on grass too. He returned all kind of serves.

Them things along with peak serving and peak FH would be to much for 2023 Wimbledon Alcaraz.

That being said I see him getting a set like 2006 Nadal did but that’s it.
 
Last edited:

FeroBango

Legend
Raz' ability to kill the slice is greatly underappreciated here to the point it isn't even a point in these hypotheticals
 

FeroBango

Legend
Well to be fair if his own ability is inferior to RAFA’s ability to attack the slice (which it is) then there’s really no point in bringing it up.
Disagree. It's a death-wish to slice against Raz today. It was the same with Rafa in his pomp. Now whether that's because older players had superior slices, ie., current players are mugs is a separate discussion altogether.

You don't slice to either man if you want to reliably win a match. Rafa has his accomplishments against Roger so that alone can tilt it towards him.
 

The Blond Blur

G.O.A.T.
Disagree. It's a death-wish to slice against Raz today. It was the same with Rafa in his pomp. Now whether that's because older players had superior slices, ie., current players are mugs is a separate discussion altogether.

You don't slice to either man if you want to reliably win a match. Rafa has his accomplishments against Roger so that alone can tilt it towards him.
What I’m saying is if RAFA who’s superior at punishing the slice (especially Fed’s) couldn’t overcome 06 Fed then there’s really no point in bringing up Tiny Carl’s ability to attack the slice.

For starters both guys are right handed. Meaning that Fed’s slice is going into Tiny Carl’s BH the vast majority of the time. Now he’d be able to run around it, but his footwork isn’t as good as Youngdal’s was. Meaning he’s already in far less favorable situation. Your footwork has to be more precise on grass because you’re going to get less favorable bounces. Speaking of bounces the ball isn’t going to be bouncing as high so you have to move quicker and your timing has to be better. Carl has the speed/movement but his timing isn’t as good which is why he has lower shot tolerance and hits a lot more errors than Youngdal did. It’s also why he doesn’t hit on the run as well as Youngdal did (especially on the FH side). Finally, by being forced to run around his BH he’s giving up a lot more court for 06 Fed to hit into and counterattack. As an added bonus he hasn’t faced a slice that’s even close to 06 Fed. I honestly can’t think of anyone he’s played that has a truly deadly slice.
 
Last edited:

ADuck

Legend
If you look at the grass stats for their 20-year-old seasons (06 for Nadal, 23 for Alcaraz) on the ATP site, they're remarkably similar in all but one area: the first-serve return. In that, Alcaraz is considerably better, and that helped him break serve quite a bit more than 06 Nadal did. Of course, you have to take single-season grass stats with a pretty hefty pile of salt, since they're based on such small sample sizes, and these stats are built against very different players 17 years apart, but I think that accords with my own eye test. Alcaraz is better on the return – on grass – than Nadal was at the same age. I'd say his serve is a bit superior as well, but Nadal did well to match Carlos's 90% hold rate, I think in large part because of how dominating he is once the ball is in play.

Carlos has a ton of tools beyond the first and second shot – his net game and slice and general touch shots are more developed than 20-year-old Nadal's – but Nadal is just the best topspin baseliner that's ever existed. He can seemingly attack just as much as his opponent with like half the risk, if that. With one forehand he can put his opponent on a string, and he has so much margin on the shot that he can keep it going as if he were hitting totally neutral rally balls. He was also beasting from the backhand side as well in 06, at least in the final. Alcaraz is quite a bit less consistent from the baseline in comparison, and I think that's where Nadal makes up so much of his ground here. Alcaraz, I would say, is a bit better on serve and return and general all-court play, but Nadal is clearly superior at the bread-and-butter baseline play, and that goes a long way in the modern game. I give Alcaraz the edge overall, but Nadal was no slouch even in his first big grass-court run.
Agree with the analysis, but give Nadal slight edge overall. Alcaraz had a much easier time against Djokovic's serve imo. Overall the pace of the game was much slower in the 2023 FINAL, either due to the ball/surface or players just hitting slower which helped Alcaraz.

If Nadal of 2006 had played in the 2023 final conditions it could've been ugly for Djoker.
 
Last edited:

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Disagree. It's a death-wish to slice against Raz today. It was the same with Rafa in his pomp. Now whether that's because older players had superior slices, ie., current players are mugs is a separate discussion altogether.

You don't slice to either man if you want to reliably win a match. Rafa has his accomplishments against Roger so that alone can tilt it towards him.

Alcaraz hasn't been dealing with peak Federer slice on grass...

Not saying he can't deal with it, just that I could see Fed's slice causing him more trouble than it did Rafa.
 

Match_Point

Rookie
Nadal is simply a bad matchup for Fed. People give Fed a bad rep for his BH, but that same BH was more than enough for the rest of the field. So even in WIM06 you see this in action and maybe the reason why it went to 4 sets.

If Nadal was a righty, he probably gets straight setted by Fed. If Alcarez is a right handed version of Nadal, then yeah either gets straight setted or pulls a miracle and loses in 4 since he plays more attacking tennis than Rafa does. I think Carlos gets eaten up by feds slice and takes him a few years to get adjusted to just like Djokovic who use to get troubled by Feds slice in the early days.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal is simply a bad matchup for Fed. People give Fed a bad rep for his BH, but that same BH was more than enough for the rest of the field. So even in WIM06 you see this in action and maybe the reason why it went to 4 sets.

If Nadal was a righty, he probably gets straight setted by Fed. If Alcarez is a right handed version of Nadal, then yeah either gets straight setted or pulls a miracle and loses in 4 since he plays more attacking tennis than Rafa does. I think Carlos gets eaten up by feds slice and takes him a few years to get adjusted to just like Djokovic who use to get troubled by Feds slice in the early days.

people really need to pay attention while watching Wim 06 final. fed's slice was drawing quite a few errors from nadal fh.
so not much of matchup issue involved.
nadal made the 2 middle sets close on the basis of his level/play, not matchup.
guy hit 20 winners to 3 or 4 UFEs in the 3rd set FFS and he had to take it in a TB.
 

Match_Point

Rookie
people really need to pay attention while watching Wim 06 final. fed's slice was drawing quite a few errors from nadal fh.
so not much of matchup issue involved.
nadal made the 2 middle sets close on the basis of his level/play, not matchup.
guy hit 20 winners to 3 or 4 UFEs in the 3rd set FFS and he had to take it in a TB.

I dont disagree with what your saying but you cant ignore that Nadal's leftie top spin FH into Rogs BH advantage will always be there hence the matchup. Court type will exacerbate this or vice versa but for Rog, Nadal has always been difficult to put away due to this. If Nadal again was right handed, no doubt in my mind Rog would've faired ALOT better and the H2H maybe different.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I dont disagree with what your saying but you cant ignore that Nadal's leftie top spin FH into Rogs BH advantage will always be there hence the matchup. Court type will exacerbate this or vice versa but for Rog, Nadal has always been difficult to put away due to this. If Nadal again was right handed, no doubt in my mind Rog would've faired ALOT better and the H2H maybe different.

that's all good in general, but not in this Wim 06 final match (or indoors for that matter)
 

ADuck

Legend
Nadal is simply a bad matchup for Fed. People give Fed a bad rep for his BH, but that same BH was more than enough for the rest of the field. So even in WIM06 you see this in action and maybe the reason why it went to 4 sets.

If Nadal was a righty, he probably gets straight setted by Fed. If Alcarez is a right handed version of Nadal, then yeah either gets straight setted or pulls a miracle and loses in 4 since he plays more attacking tennis than Rafa does. I think Carlos gets eaten up by feds slice and takes him a few years to get adjusted to just like Djokovic who use to get troubled by Feds slice in the early days.
That's an oversimplification. The topspin to BH wasn't really a big feature of this match. Nadal was able to win most of the baseline exchanges from consistently hitting hard and deep and sometimes with angle to all areas of the court, not just Fed's backhand. Sure there were a couple of points where Nadal hit a few shots to Fed's backhand, but barely more than what your average LH pro would do. In fact, perhaps less, because Nadal was playing with a very commanding backhand that day and got some winners/forced errors off of Fed's FH side. And conversely, Fed's BH was able to tee off on a couple of Nadal's FH's that were left a bit short.
 
Last edited:

FeroBango

Legend
Alcaraz hasn't been dealing with peak Federer slice on grass...

Not saying he can't deal with it, just that I could see Fed's slice causing him more trouble than it did Rafa.
Yeah I don't disagree with this premise. I've been very done with hypotheticals on this sight but even in this state of mind, it's hard to deny that Alcaraz hasn't faced anyone with slice of the calibre of Fed's.
 
Top