Better Russian, Kafelnikov or Safin?

Better Russian/


  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
Yevgeny Kafelnikov
Singles:
6 weeks at no.1
2 slams - AO, FO. 1 F, 3 SF, 7 QF (last man to win a slam in both singles and doubles, FO 1996)
0 ATP 1000, 0-5 in finals
4 ATP 500
19 ATP 250
0 YEC, 0-1 in finals
1 Olympic gold medal
26 ATP titles (9 HC, 3 clay, 3 grass, 11 carpet), 20 finals
46 top 10 wins, 5 wins vs. no.1

Doubles:
4 slams - 3 FO, USO
7 ATP 1000
6 ATP 500
10 ATP 250
27 ATP titles, 14 finals

Marat Safin
Singles:
9 weeks at no.1
2 slams - USO, AO. 2 F, 3 SF, 2 QF
5 ATP 1000, 5-3 in finals
1 ATP 500
7 ATP 250
0 YEC, 2 SF
15 ATP titles (10 HC, 2 clay, 3 carpet), 12 finals
49 top 10 wins, 4 wins vs. no.1

Doubles:
2 ATP 250

They won Davis Cup together in 2002 (Safin won both of his singles matches, Kafelnikov lost his singles and doubles match). Safin won another Davis Cup in 2006 and got Russia to final in 2007 (in which he didn't play and Russia lost).

H2H between them is 2-2


* I'm aware that there was a thread on this before but it offered no stats and had just a few replies. Doubles stats are there because Yevgeny was exceptionally great in doubles but maybe that shouldn't be looked at when comparing them. Also wanted to include some of Federer - Kafelnikov matches, unfortunately they seem to have been scrubbed off the youtube.
 
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Deleted member 748597

Guest
So it's basically this.

Safin

2 Slams
5 Masters
9 weeks at #1

Kafelnikov

2 Slams
0 Masters
6 weeks at #1

There is also the fact that Safin was a Russian God whose peak level was unmatched. This man beat peak Fed at the AO 05 and would straight set peak Djokovic on HC.
 
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Deleted member 748597

Guest
Some peak stuff from the AO 05 SF.

giphy.gif


Just kidding...
 
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Deleted member 771911

Guest
My man. He has a game that could translate across different surfaces better. He was also more a physical specimen and could outpower opponents for easy wins.
Not dissing Kafelnikov, though. I loved watching him hit groundies.
 

ZanderGoga

Semi-Pro
Safin was mercurial with a higher ceiling. Kafelnikov was steadier. Hard to call either objectively better, but for the sake of the poll, I said Safin, whose tennis I preferred.

You'll never see juicier backhand to backhand rallies than between these two, though. Talk about a couple gorgeous strokes.
 

CHillTennis

Hall of Fame
Yevgeny Kafelnikov
Singles:
6 weeks at no.1
2 slams - AO, FO. 1 F, 3 SF, 7 QF (last man to win a slam in both singles and doubles, FO 1996)
0 ATP 1000, 0-5 in finals
4 ATP 500
19 ATP 250
0 YEC, 0-1 in finals
1 Olympic gold medal
26 ATP titles (9 HC, 3 clay, 3 grass, 11 carpet), 20 finals
46 top 10 wins, 5 wins vs. no.1

Doubles:
4 slams - 3 FO, USO
7 ATP 1000
6 ATP 500
10 ATP 250
27 ATP titles, 14 finals

Marat Safin
Singles:
9 weeks at no.1
2 slams - USO, AO. 2 F, 3 SF, 2 QF
5 ATP 1000, 5-3 in finals
1 ATP 500
7 ATP 250
0 YEC, 2 SF
15 ATP titles (10 HC, 2 clay, 3 carpet), 12 finals
49 top 10 wins, 4 wins vs. no.1

Doubles:
2 ATP 250

They won Davis Cup together in 2002 (Safin won both of his singles matches, Kafelnikov lost his singles and doubles match). Safin won another Davis Cup in 2006 and got Russia to final in 2007 (in which he didn't play and Russia lost).

H2H between them is 2-2


* I'm aware that there was a thread on this before but it offered no stats and had just a few replies. Doubles stats are there because Yevgeny was exceptionally great in doubles but maybe that shouldn't be looked at when comparing them. Also wanted to include some of Federer - Kafelnikov matches, unfortunately they seem to have been scrubbed off the youtube.

I would probably give the edge to Safin.

He's one of the very few players that was able to beat Pete Sampras at the US Open and he was also the only player other than Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic to win a grand slam during the peak Fedal era.
 

YK

Rookie
Depends how you look at this. They both were born there and played under Russian flag so they are Russians OK. Safin was a promising Russian junior made into a top tier player in Valencia so he is as much a Spanish product as Russian. Yevgeny made it to #1 and two Slams growing within the Russian tennis system and winning not because of it but instead of it. He also had a lot more all around game, was quite self-deprecating, and is more cerebral off the court. Judged by the results, it is Safin; judged by the whole story, no contest Yevgeny for me.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
Safin due to Kafelnikov never winning a single masters title.
How much should we rate Masters? Kafelnikov won 3 more 500s, a singles Gold and of course a bunch of Doubles titles including Slams.
26 to 15 titles, Olympic gold, doubles. Higher peak Safin but overall...Kafelnikov imho.
This.


I will remind everyone here how exactly the Finals were run in these events if we try to be objective:

Safin beat Sampras, Hewitt and lost to Federer and Johansson. Very important to understand the kind of Sampras that was beaten though still good he was not prime and one match does not everything make when Sampras came back to drub Safin the following year. Meanwhile the loss to Federer at the 2004 AO looks good on paper but this was a pre-prime Fed especially at AO and after Safin barely beat an elder Agassi.

Kafelnikov beat Stich, Enqvist and lost to a strong Agassi at AO. His Gold however should also be understood beating Philippoussis, Kuerten and then Haas in 5. It was absolutely comparable to a Masters victory and of course rarer given the circumstances.

Safin's 5 Masters Victories
Hewitt
Nalbandian
Philippoussis
Stepanek
Levy

Kafelnikov's 5 Masters Losses: Medvedev, Krajicek, Grosjean, Johansson, Enqvist and WTF loss to Sampras.

But you know it's not so much that Safin might edge out Kafelnikov in singles, there is no argument Yevgeny obliterates in Doubles and having the longer career instead of spurts and wasted talent. So I vote Kafelnikov.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Safin is more talented, the hot and cold player who treads a fine line between genius and disaster. Safin is similar in temperament to Ivanisevic.

Kafelnikov is more consistent, is technically good in every aspect of tennis, plays loads of events, and is motivated most by money.

So basically, from Safin you are going to get the highest level but also the big slumps. From Kafelnikov you get consistency, often very good play, but seldom brilliance. Kafelnikov was vulnerable to players who had a big weapon of some kind, from a big serve (Sampras, Ivanisevic), high speed and intensity (Hewitt), relentless rallying power and focus (Muster), while Safin's weakness was in his mind most of the time. Santoro drove Safin crazy by mixing things up, whereas Kafelnikov being technically good in every department was Santoro's Kryptonite.
 
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buscemi

Hall of Fame
It's definitely a close call when looking just at singles careers. There are things that can be used to point in either direction.

If we give any significant consideration to doubles, Kafelnikov gets the nod with 4 doubles Majors and 7 doubles Masters Series titles.
 

Gemini

Hall of Fame
It's definitely a close call when looking just at singles careers. There are things that can be used to point in either direction.

If we give any significant consideration to doubles, Kafelnikov gets the nod with 4 doubles Majors and 7 doubles Masters Series titles.
This. I rarely enter these debates these days because of the subjective-ness and cherry-picking. But if you take the complete body of work of a player, the needle clearly points to Kafelnikov. He proved that he was capable of playing WAY MORE tennis than Safin at a high level given his singles and doubles records. And he often played singles and doubles in the same tournaments. Kafelnikov also earned more on court over a relatively similar if not slightly short time of being active on tour.

Kafelnikov ~ $24M over roughly 11 years active
Safin ~ $14M over roughly 12 years active
 
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martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
Safin super easily. Way impressive slam wins, which far bigger wins, and with both having 2 slams, 5 Masters to 0 makes it a total slam dunk. Some more puny tournament wins does not even come close to covering. Kafelnikov's only argument is doubles, but his doubles career isn't strong enough to compensate his considerably inferior singles career. The poll results it seems are lopsided in Safin's favor which makes sense to me. You will never find an experts ranking list that has Kafelnikov above Safin either.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Safin super easily. Way impressive slam wins, which far bigger wins, and with both having 2 slams, 5 Masters to 0 makes it a total slam dunk. Some more puny tournament wins does not even come close to covering. Kafelnikov's only argument is doubles, but his doubles career isn't strong enough to compensate his considerably inferior singles career. The poll results it seems are lopsided in Safin's favor which makes sense to me. You will never find an experts ranking list that has Kafelnikov above Safin either.
I think it's closer than that. In the 100 Greatest of All Time on the Tennis Channel, with commentary by Rod Laver, Billie Jean King, Chris Evert, Björn Borg, John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, Pete Sampras, and Andre Agassi, Safin was #80, Vic Seixas was #81, and Kafelnikov was #82, and I don't think that included doubles.

Yes, Kafelnikov didn't win any Masters Series titles, but he had several other good titles, such as Milan in 1995, beating Stich/Ivanisevic/Becker and Pilot Pen in 1997, beating Henman/Korda/Rafter (just before he won the U.S. Open). Plus, he won Olympic gold and had six years in the top 10 vs. three for Safin.

I agree that Safin gets the nod if we're just looking at singes. Doubles might tip the scales to Kafelnikov, depending on how much weight we give it.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
How much should we rate Masters? Kafelnikov won 3 more 500s, a singles Gold and of course a bunch of Doubles titles including Slams.

This.


I will remind everyone here how exactly the Finals were run in these events if we try to be objective:

Safin beat Sampras, Hewitt and lost to Federer and Johansson. Very important to understand the kind of Sampras that was beaten though still good he was not prime and one match does not everything make when Sampras came back to drub Safin the following year. Meanwhile the loss to Federer at the 2004 AO looks good on paper but this was a pre-prime Fed especially at AO and after Safin barely beat an elder Agassi.

Kafelnikov beat Stich, Enqvist and lost to a strong Agassi at AO. His Gold however should also be understood beating Philippoussis, Kuerten and then Haas in 5. It was absolutely comparable to a Masters victory and of course rarer given the circumstances.

Safin's 5 Masters Victories
Hewitt
Nalbandian
Philippoussis
Stepanek
Levy

Kafelnikov's 5 Masters Losses: Medvedev, Krajicek, Grosjean, Johansson, Enqvist and WTF loss to Sampras.

But you know it's not so much that Safin might edge out Kafelnikov in singles, there is no argument Yevgeny obliterates in Doubles and having the longer career instead of spurts and wasted talent. So I vote Kafelnikov.

Safin also beat Sampras and Agassi in his M1000 runs.
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
I think it's closer than that. In the 100 Greatest of All Time on the Tennis Channel, with commentary by Rod Laver, Billie Jean King, Chris Evert, Björn Borg, John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, Pete Sampras, and Andre Agassi, Safin was #80, Vic Seixas was #81, and Kafelnikov was #82, and I don't think that included doubles.

Yes, Kafelnikov didn't win any Masters Series titles, but he had several other good titles, such as Milan in 1995, beating Stich/Ivanisevic/Becker and Pilot Pen in 1997, beating Henman/Korda/Rafter (just before he won the U.S. Open). Plus, he won Olympic gold and had six years in the top 10 vs. three for Safin.

I agree that Safin gets the nod if we're just looking at singes. Doubles might tip the scales to Kafelnikov, depending on how much weight we give it.

Well I think the sky wouldn't be coming up if we ever agreed about anything, on either mens or womens tennis, as I think you would agree on, LOL!

I see what you are saying, but I don't think the 5 Masters to 0 can be downplayed as an even somewhat minor thing as some are trying to do, you to a lesser extent. Both have 2 majors. And Safin has the MUCH more impressive wins for his majors to boot, like by a country mile, but still 2 majors each. Safin has 1 more slam final. The next most important tournaments clearly are the WTF, then the Masters. Safin has 5 to Kafelnikov's 0, that is mammoth, especialy when his wins to get his 2 majors blow Kafelnikov's out of the water. And you can't claim to not care about the latter, as it was your whole argument for putting Capriati over Barty despite on paper Barty having the superior career at this point, for putting both Seles and Venus (particularly Venus who has only the same number of slams and less singles dominance than Justine) in the thread debating the Seles, Venus, Henin trio. And no Olympics in 2000 was not that big a deal, and not even on par with a Masters, but if I suspended reality and pretended like it were, it would still be 5 to 1 in the next most important events, considering neither ever won a WTF. More smaller (well below Masters calibre) tournaments does not even come close to making up for all that. Both had a little stint at #1, Kafelnikov's was in kind of embarsasing fashion (6 straight 1st round losses on the way to attaining it), but still technically that would be a wash too.

And even as someone who gives some value to doubles I don't think Kafelnikov's doubles career (which isn't that great) would be enough to make the difference either, but yes you atleast seem to acknowledge Kafelnikov's only argument would be his doubles as well. On singles alone he would not be ranked over Safin by hardly anyone.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Safin and it is not even close in singles.
Safin was not focused and have many injury but still has 5 masters more than Hewitt, Nalbandian, Davy and others .
If you take whole body of work like doubles then kafelnikov
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Kafelniov did win Olympic gold with decent draw beating Haas, Guga and Scud so that is master level win for me
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
And even as someone who gives some value to doubles I don't think Kafelnikov's doubles career (which isn't that great) would be enough to make the difference either, but yes you atleast seem to acknowledge Kafelnikov's only argument would be his doubles as well. On singles alone he would not be ranked over Safin by hardly anyone.
4 doubles Majors, 7 Masters Series titles, 26 total titles. He basically had a Courier-esque career, but in doubles (4 Majors, 5 Masters Series titles, 23 total titles for Jim in singles).

For his era, Kafelnikov in doubles was way ahead of his peers who won singles and doubles Majors, with just Stich, Korda, and Rafter each winning 1 doubles Major.

Even going back to the Edberg era, you have Edberg with 3 doubles Majors, Gomez with 2, Noah with 1, and Wilander with 1.

I'm pretty sure McEnroe is the only other player who started in the Open Era who won singles Major(s) and 4+ doubles Majors like Kafelnikov (9 for McEnroe). Everyone else was a pre-Open carry-over like Newcombe, Laver, and Smith.

For me, that's pretty impressive.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Safin had grand slam victories over Federer (his only defeat in 86 matches in non-clay slams from the start of his 2004 Australian Open run until his 2008 Australian Open SF defeat to Djokovic), Sampras (who had won his last 8 slam finals), Agassi twice including ending his 26 match wining streak in Melbourne in 2004, Djokovic who had reached the semis at the last 5 slams at Wimbledon 2008 (not counting his 2005 AO victory), the world no. 1 Roddick in Melbourne in 2004 who had been on fire during the first 4 rounds (particularly against Schalken), the reigning champion Kuerten at RG in 1998, the home favourite Hewitt in Melbourne in 2005 and the former champion Ferrero at RG in 2005. That’s an impressive list.

Clearly Ferrero in 2005 wasn't the same as Ferrero from 2000 / 2001 to 2003 (though Safin while struggling with form and injuries did beat Ferrero on clay in 2003 in Barcelona), but still that 3rd round match at RG in 2005 was high quality stuff.

Safin's Barcelona title win 2000, beating Norman in the semis and Ferrero in the final was a very good effort - often despite tourmament designations, I regarded Barcelona as just as important as Hamburg for example, especially given the importance of Spain as a tennis country from the 90s again.

Away from his slam titles and his Olympic gold medal, Kafelnikov beating Stich, Ivanisevic and Becker (who had a match point during the 3rd set tiebreaker in the final) in succession to win the Milan title in 1995, was an impressive feat,

I'm not really overly interested in picking one player over the other though - they both have various advantages in their favour.
 
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