mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yep, that's what matters in a person.Name comes first @mike danny
Better season: 2005 Federer or 2013 Nadal?
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Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yep, that's what matters in a person.
I mean Djokovic's win over Nadal at AO 2019 must surely be considered legendary then, after all it is Nadal, who dished out multiple bagels and breadsticks before reaching the final and also without dropping a set...surely the actual REAL form of Nadal doesn't account for anything...just his name, and that he made the final and would have won it if Djokovic wasn't on the other side of the net.
It's about the name right...not the actual level of performance they brought.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Hewitt US Open 2005 vs Murray US Open 2012, who wins?
So you are comparing the absolute best version of Murray, the 2012 version to the 2005 version of Hewitt.
If you want to do best version v best version, then do Murray 2012 v Hewitt 2001 and see how interesting it gets, when the player Murray goes up against is the one who straight set Sampras in the USO final.
No one is comparing Djokovic's best form at USO, his 2011 form to Hewitt's 2005 version...the point is the comparison is between a form of Djokovic that isn't his best, his 2013 version. If you want to do such a thing for Murray, then how about using a match that happened four years later...lets see, how about the match with Nishikori where he lost because of a gong. LOL
2001 to 2012 four years removed for both 2005 to 2016
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
You sound like Djokovic fans here are not hyping this AO 2019 final. What's even worse, many believe RG 2015 1/4 final was a great win. If anything, judging by names is something which mostly comes from Djokovic fans here. (that includes overrating 2015 Federer by the way)I mean Djokovic's win over Nadal at AO 2019 must surely be considered legendary then, after all it is Nadal, who dished out multiple bagels and breadsticks before reaching the final and also without dropping a set...surely the actual REAL form of Nadal doesn't account for anything...just his name, and that he made the final and would have won it if Djokovic wasn't on the other side of the net.
It's about the name right...not the actual level of performance they brought.
TheGhostOfAgassi
Talk Tennis Guru
Agree!
Novak 2013 USO was a better player than Rafa 2019 AO. Rafa has one AO. But USO is different, for them both. Novak isn’t a novice exactly in NY.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think anyone ever said Djokovic played well in the first set of USO 2013 final. But he did play well in the second and third sets, and it was amazing how Nadal managed to steal that third set from him. This is what gets praised. On the other hand, Nadal in AO 2019 final didn't play good tennis in any of the sets.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
So epic
The commentators: "WOW.... you only have to have a look around the stadium to know how good THAT was 
" One of my fav lines ever lol
DSH
Bionic Poster
No, I just ask a question. Nothing more than that, just that you misrepresent something to explain your point of view.
Regarding that the 2001 Hewitt version is superior to his 2005 version, it is somewhat wrong, Sampras in that final favored the Australian game, especially from the second set onwards, desperately going to the net to favor the passing shots of "Rusty". Of course, after beating Rafter, Agassi and Safin consecutively, the American's tactic for avoiding ground strokes from the bottom of the court is somewhat understood.
Only the execution was appalling.
If it's not the worst GS final that "Pistol" Pete has played in his career, it 's on the podium without question.
And regarding Hewitt's 2005 version, I have read from the same Federer fans that this Australian performance was rated the best of his entire career at the Open.
Of course, it is not the same to face peak Federer than to have to contend with a post prime version of Sampras that also he came with fatigue and had his worst match of that 2001 edition of the US Open.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Of course they do, but you are underlining my point.
You know I don't put too much stock into that match, because I knew Nadal was in for a beat down, despite some Nadal fans claiming that Djokovic was going to feel the wrath of Nadal's forehand in the final. The point is very simple, just because someone makes the final, doesn't mean they are playing Godly tennis, in fact more of a case can be made for Nadal if we just look at the numbers and how he destroyed everyone on his way to the final...however if we look closely, Nadal didn't play that well, and mentally was shackled.
Djokovic 2013 played well for at best two sets in a best of five match, in other words, the two sets he did play well in, he split them with Nadal, however his score of 2, 1 in the other two sets showed where his level really was, a short burst isn't enough to cover a best of five...and mentally giving up after the third set when it was all still to play for is inexcusable for someone who is meant to be strong competition...where was the resilience to keep going? I mean just a year earlier he scraped back from 0-2 down against Murray to at least push it to five, what happened in 2013?
Anyways, I know you understand my point. You also know that I don't really consider the wins over Nadal at RG and AO 2019 to be anything special, despite the way Nadal got to the AO final. The bottom line is this - It is not about the name, it is about the form that name brings on the day, if you are not bringing the form, then guys like Nadal, legends of the sport lose to players outside the top 100 at Wimbledon for four straight years...I mean did Nadal play like a 19 time slam champion in those losses? Not to me he didn't.
There are fans in all the fanbases that want to prop up the wins of their fav and devalue the wins of the guy that isn't their fav. I think Nadal v Djokovic 2010 was the best match of the series between them there, and Nadal won against Djokovic who was playing with nothing to lose. Credit is always given where it should be.
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Hitman
Bionic Poster
I am bringing your question into the context of the discussion that is being held that Djokovic 2013 wasn't as great as he is being made out to be, and Hewitt 2005 stands a chance...so why are you bringing in the peak version of Murray v that version of Hewitt? What exactly are you trying to bring with that discussion, that Hewitt was peak in 2005? The discussion is not talking about Hewitt 2005 beating the peak version of Djokovic 2011, which I don't think he can, it is about an inferior version...
So nothing to mis-represent from my side.
Hewitt was also picking him off at will, and Sampras praised Hewitt's speed. Check out the presentation...he says he wishes he had legs like Hewitt who could get to every ball. Hewitt was also had a very dogged determination back in those days...he was called The Rocky of tennis. He would not be so easy to beat regardless, Hewitt was causing problems to Pete outside of USO also.
Hewitt was a lot faster back in 2000 to 2001, in 2005 he had bulked up more, had a lot more muscle, one of his biggest assets wasn't at peak level anywhere more. I think Hewitt was at his best from 2000 to 2002. Just my opinion on that.
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
Hewitt in 2005 was not as fast, but had a bit more power on his groundstrokes, which is how he was able to push Fed in the 2005 USO SF. That power made up a bit for his lack of peak speed.
And I don't believe for a second 2013 Djokovic would just roll over 2005 Hewitt at the USO. 2005 Federer played better at the USO than 2013 Djokovic and it was still a tough 4 setter.
DSH
Bionic Poster
So, according to you, Hewitt from the US Open 2005 would defeat Djokovic from the US Open 2013, is that your conclusion?
Hitman
Bionic Poster
My point. If peak Federer needed 4 sets to get past Hewitt, and that was when Federer was at the zenith of his powers, it is not outside the realm of possibility that Hewitt would cause issues for Djokovic. I have already mentioned here and showed footage of 2012 Hewitt, a seriously past his best player, going four sets against Djokovic at AO 2012...if he can do that there, he can certainly give Djokovic 2013 at USO a tough time...I mean don't we often hear that Djokovic is vulnerable at USO?
And yes, to the first point, Hewitt lost speed by 2005, he bulked up, put on some good muscle to make up for it and to get some heat on his ground stroke, but his biggest weapon was gone.
DSH
Bionic Poster
I was asking Mike but it's fair enough. Nobody here has the correct answers, only approximations and deductions of eventual parallel realities.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I know it's not quite the same situation, but Nadal also lost some speed after 2009, but made up for it with better groundstrokes.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I was asking Mike but it's fair enough. Nobody here has the correct answers, only approximations and deductions of eventual parallel realities.
Sorry, thought I should answer myself also, to clear my point. I am not giving the win to Hewitt 2005, I am only saying Djokovic 2013 is not garanteed that win.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Why do you think Federer beats him now?
I mean is Nadal really at his best now, despite bringing some heat on his shots...? No he isn't, Hewitt was the same way.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
No, I'm saying that Djokovic wouldn't easily dismiss him like he's some fodder if even a better playing Federer couldn't.
And like I said, who would win between 2013 Djokovic and 2005 Hewitt and Agassi is irrelevant here since neither Federer nor Nadal is losing at each other's respective USO's.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I know, but ironically, Hewitt started doing a bit better vs Federer in 2005 than in 2004 when he was faster. He wasn't getting breadsticked and bagelled anymore.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
That is because Roger Rashid helped change his game over that 2005 period, which helped Hewitt, because Hewitt was giving Federer less time to get the forehand into play, he was bringing more heat.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Would have been interesting to see more of their matches had injuries not finished Hewitt completely in 2006. He started to have some solutions to Federer even in losing efforts.
I mean the 2005 USO SF was his best slam match vs Fed.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Hewitt really did play some great tennis in 2005 for sure against Federer. Their last real hurrah together before injuries overwhelmed Hewitt and he was out of the picture the following year, only making a couple of special performances here and there, but without that consistency.
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
mike danny
Bionic Poster
In 2009 he was no longer a slam contender though, Wimb 2009 notwithstanding.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
lol?
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
I'm sure Fed would have beaten him more soundly if he came in with the QF/SF form, but still funny that Hewitt was probably able to bother Fed more in 2009 in a slam than he did in their mutual peaks. Djokodalarray EXPOSED Fed from the baseline though!
Also 2008 Wimbledon first set vs 04/05 Wimbledon first set, lol.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Fred exposed himself by mucking it up as soon as he left the mythical peak summit, no?
It's actually about as funny as Djokovic having more trouble with Simon than Federer at AO, babyovic aside. That is, not really funny at all, or is it?
metsman
Talk Tennis Guru
In general Fed got more vulnerable against pretty much every style after peak. Big hitting, big serving, baseline botting, etc.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
Consider the thread bumped up.
RS
Bionic Poster
What was a better season Federer 2005 or Nadal 2010?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
In terms of peak level, they're about equal, IMO.
On clay, Nadal clearly
On grass, Fed clearly
On HC about even.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Sport
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, youa could be right.
Anyhow, Roger's 2005 season is overall much better, it's not even close.
NeutralFan
G.O.A.T.
Nadal because he turned the table on Djokovic and won 2 slams defeating him . Fed on the other hand defeated his Piegon to get his pet slam and old back Aggassi to win his us open . There's no contest .
NatF
Bionic Poster
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal was really good on HC that year, the best he's ever been on the surface across a season. Can't ignore that.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Nadal was really good on HC that year, the best he's ever been on the surface across a season. Can't ignore that.
Can't put him level with Fed when he didn't play the AO.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
In terms of results, Fed was better. But in terms of level, I'd say they were equal. Nadal nit playing the AO doesn't change that.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Would put Fed slightly ahead at the events they both competed at e.g. IW, Cincy and USO, except ironically the YEC lol.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
The YEC was played on carpet in 2005 anyway.
abmk
Bionic Poster
more than slightly ahead at IW IMO.
Fed didn't lose a set at IW 05
Nadal had 2 close matches - Gulbis and Delpo.
I'd say delpo takes it if not for the b2b 3-setters vs Murray/Djoko before the final.
Nadal's IW 07 is what I would say is close to fed's IW 05, not IW 13.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Nadal's draw was tougher in 2013 so the lost sets don't matter so much IMO. Hewitt was a bit tired from his bout with Roddick the night before that had three TB's.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Yeah, Nadal faced tougher competition
But its not just that Nadal lost a set each.
It went 7-5 in the 3rd vs Gulbis and he was down a set and break vs Delpo.
Yes, Hewitt was not as sharp because of the semi vs Roddick, but Fed beat him pretty convincingly.
Nadal was in trouble vs little spent delpo.
Basically 0 chinks in IW 05 which was absolute peak fed.
13 Nadal was a couple of tournaments into returning from a 6 month break.
Good tennis from him, but doesn't measure up v absolute peak fed of IW 05.
Compared to IW 13, IW 07 was significantly better from Nadal. IW 09 was also clearly better.
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Pheasant
Legend
2005 Federer vs 2013 Nadal.
Let's break this down:
overall record;
Federer, 81-4, .953
Nadal: 75-7, .915
Strong edge to Federer
Total titles:
Federer 11 titles out of 12 finals
Nadal 10 titles out of 14 finals.
I'd call this a wash. That's impressive that Nadal got to 3 more finals. Going deep is worth a lot to me.
Slams:
Federer: 2 titles and 2 semis
Nadal: 2 titles, a 1st round knockout, and a no-show
solid edge to Federer
Key opponents
Nadal:
3-3 vs a strong version of Djokovic
3-0 vs a very weak version of Federer
3-0 vs up-and-coming Wawrinka
5-0 vs strong version of Berdych
1-1 vs very good version of Delpo
5-1 vs peak Ferrer
Federer:
4-0 vs old Agassi
1-1 vs peak Safin
3-0 vs decent version of Gonzo
3-0 vs a very good version of Hewitt
2-0 vs good version of Roddick
2-1 a very good version of Nalbandian(a best of 5 setup sealed injured Fed's fate in the Master's Cup final, IMHO)
5-0 vs near-peak Ljubicic
I'd give Nadal the advantage for having tougher competition. But it's not enough to offset Federer's superior results.
The edge goes to Federer here.
Let's break this down:
overall record;
Federer, 81-4, .953
Nadal: 75-7, .915
Strong edge to Federer
Total titles:
Federer 11 titles out of 12 finals
Nadal 10 titles out of 14 finals.
I'd call this a wash. That's impressive that Nadal got to 3 more finals. Going deep is worth a lot to me.
Slams:
Federer: 2 titles and 2 semis
Nadal: 2 titles, a 1st round knockout, and a no-show
solid edge to Federer
Key opponents
Nadal:
3-3 vs a strong version of Djokovic
3-0 vs a very weak version of Federer
3-0 vs up-and-coming Wawrinka
5-0 vs strong version of Berdych
1-1 vs very good version of Delpo
5-1 vs peak Ferrer
Federer:
4-0 vs old Agassi
1-1 vs peak Safin
3-0 vs decent version of Gonzo
3-0 vs a very good version of Hewitt
2-0 vs good version of Roddick
2-1 a very good version of Nalbandian(a best of 5 setup sealed injured Fed's fate in the Master's Cup final, IMHO)
5-0 vs near-peak Ljubicic
I'd give Nadal the advantage for having tougher competition. But it's not enough to offset Federer's superior results.
The edge goes to Federer here.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I do think Nadal in 2013 is slightly overrated but I also cba to argue what was a clear or slight edge lol. Maybe I'm underselling IW 05 Fed, it was probably his best run there.
abmk
Bionic Poster
You missed 1-1 vs Nadal (RG and Miami)
don't think Nadal had tougher competition at all.
AO 05 Safin, RG 05 Nadal, USO 05 Hewitt vs RG 13 Djoko, USO 13 djoko.
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