Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by dangalak, Sep 25, 2012.
Let's see how overrated Federer's serve really is.
Why do you make polls when you know who will win them?
Dude on TTW!! If you asked Which is faster?? A ferrari or a federer serve? The federer serve would be winning by a country mile!!
Rule no1- On TTW the universal answer to everything is Roger Federer (and i completely agree
Guys, the question is "who has the better serve" and not ""who won more major titles"
Federer's placement and variety is irrelevant as tsonga places his serve just as well and hits it MUCH, MUCH harder. He isn't Del Potro.
Federer holds as often as he does, not because of his serve alone, but because of his entire game. That includes FH, BH, movement and volleys, all thing he is better than Tsonga at. He also returns considerably better. THAT is why he wins more often.
Federer's toss is highly unpredictable he tosses the same way anywhere he serves that is what his opponents have said is really hard to figure out again just a statement
Same thing goes for Tsonga. :?
I have no idea what makes you think of comparing Federer's serve vs................ Tsonga who?
Man, Fed's serve isn't just speed - its the beauty, swing, the placement, the angle...
Place a nail exactly at the T and Federer's serve will hammer it down... At his best, he could keep nailing T serves, wide serves, aces the whole day... More than that, the consistency - his serve is not monstrous but he puts 75% of that majestic first serve always in and you can do nothing to break it... I remember in 2005-2007 stretch, Fed losing a set was news - literally... Believe me I've seen breaking news in live TV news feeds for Fed losing one set...
And you compare that with Tsonga??? Not a match in anyway - choose a better opponent, may be Sampras, would have done justice to the question....
The only way to objectively know who has the better serve is:
* aces per match
* service winners per match
that excludes the rest of the game(FH, BH, movement)
Sampras' serve absolutely SH*TS on Federer's. He does EVERYTHING Federer does while hitting it about 15 MPH harder.
When will you realize they nailing the T isn't something that your god federer alone can do? Tsonga is one of the most precise servers on tour, close behind a guy like Federer. The difference is, he doesn't average 112 mph on his FS. :lol:
Also, when did Federer even average 75% in his entire career? :? Not even Cipolla, Davdenko or nadal average that. :lol:
Has it ever ocurred to you that Federer was barely broken because of what he did AFTER the serve?
2012 1st Serve Points Won
Points Won Total Points % Matches
1. Milos Raonic 2024 2443 83 53
2. Gilles Muller 1450 1796 81 37
3. Sam Querrey 1890 2372 80 51
4. Roger Federer 2563 3283 78 69
5. Mardy Fish 991 1273 78 32
6. John Isner 2611 3359 78 61
7. Feliciano Lopez 1461 1880 78 40
8. Tomas Berdych 2163 2793 77 65
9. Nicolas Almagro 2293 2989 77 71
10. Ernests Gulbis 1068 1402 76 33
11. Janko Tipsarevic 2142 2825 76 67
12. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 2290 3028 76 62
13. Alexandr Dolgopolov 1535 2049 75 46
14. Andy Roddick 1513 2023 75 39
15. Tommy Haas 1350 1809 75 40
16. Kevin Anderson 1702 2281 75 44
17. Rafael Nadal 1710 2293 75 48
18. Juan Martin Del Potro 2413 3244 74 67
19. Novak Djokovic 2584 3476 74 71
20. Xavier Malisse 1339 1810 74 42
21. Lukas Rosol 1153 1561 74 34
22. Philipp Kohlschreiber 2296 3114 74 62
23. Jeremy Chardy 1250 1698 74 39
24. David Ferrer 2390 3251 74 72
25. Andy Murray 2185 2974 73 58
2012 Ace Count/Matches played
1. John Isner 917 61
2. Milos Raonic 836 53
3. Nicolas Almagro 569 71
4. Sam Querrey 564 51
5. Roger Federer 559 69
6. Janko Tipsarevic 530 67
7. Tomas Berdych 525 65
8. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 511 62
9. Gilles Muller 484 37
10. Kevin Anderson 481 44
Break Points Saved/Total Faced/Percentage Saved/Match Count
1. Milos Raonic 137 185 74 53
2. John Isner 183 250 73 61
3. Feliciano Lopez 167 236 71 40
4. Rafael Nadal 165 234 71 48
5. Tomas Berdych 239 340 70 65
6. Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 236 338 70 62
7. Roger Federer 174 252 69 69
8. Jeremy Chardy 193 283 68 39
9. Andy Murray 269 397 68 58
10. Juan Martin Del Potro 221 327 68 67
Fed wins all stats I've found except BP's saved, but look how many MORE Tsonga faced? And he saved 1 percent more; not exactly a blowout.
Nice try at trolling OP.
Just kidding. You fail.
Also like how people act as if pace is utterly irrelevant. Del Potro hits his serve much harder than Federer, yet it is clearly inferior. Tsonga hits his serve harder, while doing all the things that Federer does on his serve (to almost the same extent)
Ask yourself: why does tsonga hold serve as well as Federer, even though his bachhand, movement and forehand ar.e VASTLY inferior. Let's not even talk about their intelligence. :lol:
You cannot be serious....
So you also think that Almagro is a better server than Roddick, right.
I mean, it's ALMOST like, you can win service point because of your superior groundstrokes. I always thought whenever somebody wins a point on first serve, they hit an ace or an unreturned serve.
Haas a better server than Kevin Anderson. :lol:
My God, why have you forsaken me.
Riight, that post isn't based on a MASSIVE assumption or anything...
Look here with your eyes:
This year? Yeah. Obviously.
And you ignored the ace count. No surprise there.
Isn't that what makes the difference? Even I can hit precisely at the T - what good does it do when it do it at 90/100 mph.... Hitting it hard and precise - both at the same time is a lot more difficult and that's the diff b/w Tsonga and Fed.
And where did I say 75% in entire career? I meant it in a single match.... When you play best of 5 against someone who can put 75% of FS in during the entire match, it does make it a whole lot difficult...
What he did AFTER the serve? Yes. But its his serve that was the launching pad for how he dictated his game. What he did after the serve helps to a significantly lesser percentage - inspite of all his beautiful game. Thats the reason why his break point conversion rate is not one of the best. Its his serve that helps him dictate his game and that explains why it was difficult to break him.
This poll wouldnt prove that. Unless you really think his serve is inferior to Tsonga in which case you underrate it. Federer's serve has only gotten better through the years. Right now I would say Karlovic, Isner, and Raonic are the only ones with superior serves that come off the top of my head right away atleast.
He played 7 more matches you joke of a poster. Federer averages 8.1 ace per match. Tsonga averages 8.2. :lol:
Lemme guess, nadal has a better serve than Del Potro.
Ferrer has a better first serve than Murray :lol::lol: (don't even dare to go "he has a crappy FS%" Ferrer averaged 74 1st SERVE POINTS WON while Murray averaged 73%. So according to your bulletproof reasoning, Ferrer has a better first serve than Murray, they guy whose first serve is a n absolute bomb)
Dumb thread is dumb.
The serve isn't just about acing people and unreturnables, that's only part of it. If the player can do that consistently, then more power to him/her.
The serve is also about opening the court, setting up the next shot. OP probably grew up without watching any serving and volleying.
OH SNAP LOOK AT THAT .1 PERCENT DIFFERENCE.
You fail so much.
And Ferrer's serve is EXTREMELY underrated.
Do you even watch tennis? Murray does have a crap first serve percentage too, or don't you know that?
Nadal's serve is not better than Del Potro's but he backs it up better. he's outside top 50 in aces, while Delpo is in top 15 I think.
But with the difference between Federer and Tsonga being so slight, you can't claim one or the other has better serve. .1 percent could easily be explained by opponent's returning ability.
I'd wager Tsonga has played less top 5 opponents this year than Fed.. and that could be why he has higher ace per match average.
His matches are also shorter. He wins more easily. Tsonga isnt better in any aspect of the serve other than power, and it is not like he has the serving power edge of Raonic or prime Roddick either.
Your post is utterly irrelevant to the topic. How does the information you brought in show that the OP "didn't grow up watching serving and volleying"?
The fact that nobody called out that one guy for his ludicrous claims (that percentage of points won on first serve is all that's needed) shows how weka the Federer side of this argument is.
I mean, going by that logic, Ferrer's non weapon of a serve, is more effective than Murray, who has one of the most potent first serves on tour.
The true error of this is that people act as if Tsonga just hammers his serves in the middle of the service box. He does everything Federer does, but with MUCH more pace.
Monster Kick Serve by Rog
You're not really that dense are you? The ace count per match is effectively the same, so how can you even claim Tsonga's serve is better?
Read the bolded part.
Also, Read up
He is far better than Federer in power though and not even close to being as inferior in the other departments serving.
People need to realize that PLENTY of players have a more potent serve than Federer. Querrey, Anderson, Lopez, Fish etc all are arguably better servers than Federer. Federer winning more of his service games is dependent on him actually having a ground game though, unlike those guys. If you get their serve back with decent debth, you will likely win the point. If you get Federer's serve back deep, you haven't won nothing yet. THAT is why his serving seems so effective.
Oy vey. Federer is often in 120's on serve. Tsonga is 130's. That's not a huge difference. only about 8-12% faster.. and Fed's is plenty fast enough to be effective.
Again, the Ace count is evidence to this. 8.1 vs 8.2 is negligible, and I've already given an opinion on a factor that could affect that.
Because serve and volley is a good example to explain the placement/angle/bounce helps set up the subsequent volley into the open court, or wrong foot the opponent. Thus proving my point that the serve is much more than just bombing down with pace for aces and unreturnables.
In today's game, it helps set up the short return for a groundstroke winner from no man's land.
This is why I need to remind myself to stop going to the pro section of talk tennis. You get sucked into these idiotic discussion vortexes. Why make a thread if you've already made up your mind on "what a good serve should be"? You want people to agree with you and applaud you for such an insightful observation?
I didn't claim Tsonga's serve is better than Federer's my friend, you came and started polluted this thread with misleading statistics. You even had the gall to say Tsonga had an inferior serve because of fewer aces. :lol: (big blunder there)
Bottomline is I'm not even sure if Tsonga's serve is VASTLY superior to Federer's. All I was doing was arguing against the usual overestimation of Fed's serve. "He can place it SO well" Well guess what, so can others. If a guy hits way harder than you, you better hope he is much inferior and more predictable than you (i.e. Del Potro) Tsonga isn't. At worst, he is equal to Federer (at least on 1st serve)
You guys really ought to check out that MTF link that I posted.
Whose serve is better? For me, it's really close, but I'm going with Federer. His forehand AND serve is a big part of Roger's success at 31. True, Tsonga has more power, but Fed has better angles and placement which gives him a lot of easy points.
I can say from what I've seen that Federer cruises through more of his service games than Tsonga.
Federer CAn hit into the 120s but he typically averages mid 110s.
I seriously do not get what you're mad about. In what way does what you wrote contradict me. Everything you said, I have no problem with.
Federer has the footwork to be in position quickly and put the forehand away immediately without a fuss. Tsonga has horrible footwork and his FH is way less consistent.
You can't watch much tennis. Federer's second serve is superior to Tsonga 19 days out of 20. His tactical serving is superior to Tsonga's 19 days out of 20 also.
Tsonga just serves bigger when he serves bigger.
I never claimed that Tsonga has a better second serve. He might be third behind Isner and Federer though from the top 10.
It doesn't matter how "underrated" Ferrer's serve is, it's still **** poor compared to the majority of top tennis players.
Murray's ****ty first serve percentage is utterly irrelevant, as the "percentage of first serve points won only takes into account the first serves that actually went in.
Well.. explain this to me then, you said you don't claim Tsonga's serve is better.. and then say it might not be VASTLY better? And at worst, on par with Federer?
Contradictions to no end... You should see my link about arguments and what constitutes a sound argument.
Regardless, your assertion that he places his serve just as well as Federer is wrong. And on second serves that disparity becomes even more important in terms of serve strength.
sigh,....smoke and mirrors
I do think Tsonga probably has a better first serve than Fred. The point is though, you pretended that I base my claim on that 0.1 difference, which is nonsense.
What I really did was dispute your absurd claim that Federer's 2 percent superiority in 1st serve points won and superiority in aces is meaningful. It isn't. He hits more aces because he played more matches. And the other stat is basically meaningless as your list is chockful of players winning more points on their first serve than player undeniably possessing more potent first serves.
Where did I say Federer's serve is better than Tsonga's in any meaningful way?
Please tell me.
His serve is his biggest weakness (natural, considering his height) and he is without a doubt the worst server in ther top 10, if not the top 20. Go on, show me 1 guy with a worse first serve than him.
That is also besides the point: the point was to illustrate how usless your stats were. They showed a guy to have a superior first serve to a guy he is clearly inferior to in that area. There is no way Murray's first serve isn't superior to Ferrer's. Yet that's what your stats show, making them irrelevant for this topic.
Well, maybe he doesn't place it EXACTLY as well as Federer does, he isn't inferior enough, that his superiority in pace wouldn't make him at least equal, if not superior to him.
Your first post in this thread kind of implied it.
If you didn't mean to say it, guess we just wasted a lot of time. :lol:
Actually, they dont. They show he won a higher percentage of first serve points. I never claimed he had a superior serve to Murray based on that, Nor did I claim anything of the sort with Federer.
I was using one of several stats to show that your suggestion in the beginning of the thread (that Tsonga's serve was going to lose a poll to Fed' serve despite, in your own opinion, it being better) was NOT supported by the majority of stats. I never claimed that the first serve percentage stat was the only meaningful stat, nor did I say it proved anything regarding the effectiveness of the serve itself.
You just assumed.
My first post was to show that Federer is better at winning first serve points, and only a fraction behind Tsonga in aces per match and break points saved. Your original post strongly hinted that you felt that Tsonga's serve was the clearly better serve.
I simply aimed to disprove that opinion.
Bad tool my friend. You know what they say about statistics: "They are like miniskirts: the reveal alot, but the most significant thing stays hidden." :lol:
Federer because he has more grand slams.
Tell me, how are they wrong? How has this not backed up my point?
Not maybe. He does. If that isn't really blatantly obvious from watching them play then your judgement on the topic is lacking.
Because they can be misleading. They can show better servers to be inferior and worse servers to be better. For example like with Del Potro and Nadal or Ferrer and Murray.
If a guy has a terrible ground game and still managed to win more points on his serve, that typically means, his serve is to blame (for example, Raonic, who wins more point behind his 1st serve, but you can't really blame his awesome ground game for that :lol
But with Federer, whose ground game is clearly superior to Tsonga's it is not as clear cut.
It's just a colloquiallism, chill out dude. :lol: The only guy who paces his serve exactly as well as Federer and serves even harder is Pete Sampras. Karlovic can hit even better angles with much better pace too, but then again, he is a giant.
And there's where the argument should end. Some will have the opinion of Fed's serve being better, and some might say Tsonga.
I don't think anyone is saying that Fed's serve is vastly superior. Just that it is better (and the stats point that way as well)
But didn't we establish that stats are unreliable? They don't differentiate between service point won due to good serving and points won due to good rallying.
The only attempt that you could make is try that MTF link that I posted. The guy made a decent attempt trying to isolate the rallying points.
Separate names with a comma.