BH slice - a better defensive mechanism than regular 2hbh?

atp2015

atp2015

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Where's the TT majority on this? I'm beginning to think that (at rec level) BH slice is a much better option as a defensive technique than 2hbh topspin. It's just damn hard to produce quality topspin using 2 hander in defensive situations.
It's a lot easier to slice low and hard than produce good enough flat or topspin shot using 2hbh. thoughts?
 
if techniques are solid, in theory the topspin shot 1hbh or 2hbh is a better defense shot, against a hard hit ball near you. these balls are likely quite deep and maybe on the rise when it gets to you... so the ball will 'see' less strings of a slice because the racket face is open... and more strings of a closed face of a topspin shot, not to mention the topspin shot will dip down to give extra safety.

on a wide ball the slice is often used because by the time you reach that thing it's likely flying flat or is already dropping a little. Also it's easier to swing down when you are reaching wide.
 
atp2015 said:
Where's the TT majority on this? I'm beginning to think that (at rec level) BH slice is a much better option as a defensive technique than 2hbh topspin. It's just damn hard to produce quality topspin using 2 hander in defensive situations.
It's a lot easier to slice low and hard than produce good enough flat or topspin shot using 2hbh. thoughts?
Click to expand...

It's not by accident that most guys winning the 50+ singles tournaments hit mostly 1HBH slices... :-)
 
Dou said:
if techniques are solid, in theory the topspin shot 1hbh or 2hbh is a better defense shot, against a hard hit ball near you. these balls are likely quite deep and maybe on the rise when it gets to you... so the ball will 'see' less strings of a slice because the racket face is open... and more strings of a closed face of a topspin shot, not to mention the topspin shot will dip down to give extra safety.
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I disagree. I think the slice is generally better. The topspin shot will dip down, but it will also bounce up higher, giving your opponent an easier next shot. Also, the topspin shot will be faster and therefore give you less time to recover. The slice is more dangerous if the person is approaching the net because it sits up, but people don't approach the net the way they used to. The topspin will be easier to turn it around from a counterpuncher perspective and is easier to get on the offensive from a defensive position, in terms of just a defensive shot, the slice prevails in my opinion.
 
I got done 60 last night. Obviously the guy was way better than me. It was his massive forehand that did the damage. I was trying slicing. It wasn't effective against heavy topspin deep shots. I think the easiest thing against those is topspin them back but More as a high Looper
 
Dou said:
if techniques are solid, in theory the topspin shot 1hbh or 2hbh is a better defense shot, against a hard hit ball near you. these balls are likely quite deep and maybe on the rise when it gets to you... so the ball will 'see' less strings of a slice because the racket face is open... and more strings of a closed face of a topspin shot, not to mention the topspin shot will dip down to give extra safety.

on a wide ball the slice is often used because by the time you reach that thing it's likely flying flat or is already dropping a little. Also it's easier to swing down when you are reaching wide.
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I disagree as well. If you hit a good slice, the racquet face is nearly neutral.
Sure, a topspin bh will have a closed face, but the slice is neutral so its a small advantage to topspin

However the timing and reach elements become much more important when on defense as these are both stretched - particularly on a 1hbh. The slice is a more linear shot through contact and thus the strings face the ball for longer, which is a big advantage. Not as much for the 2hbh though. Also, the reach is an obvious advantage for both.

Also, taking pace off the ball is a big advantage for both in a defensive situation.

Id say overall the slice wins hands down. If you're forced to play a passing shot tho, best to either go for top and rip it (very low % if ur on defense) or go for a very well placed slice (this often actually works really well suprisingly as long as its fast enough and not a floater) or lob it.
 
atp2015 said:
do you know how fast(mph and/or spin percentage) you swing?
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No idea, but for an offensive slice I try to take a full backswing, starting the swing from behind my head to generate racket head speed.

Defensive slice I'm usually just trying to get a racket on the ball :-)
 
Big Bagel said:
I disagree. I think the slice is generally better. The topspin shot will dip down, but it will also bounce up higher, giving your opponent an easier next shot. Also, the topspin shot will be faster and therefore give you less time to recover. The slice is more dangerous if the person is approaching the net because it sits up, but people don't approach the net the way they used to. The topspin will be easier to turn it around from a counterpuncher perspective and is easier to get on the offensive from a defensive position, in terms of just a defensive shot, the slice prevails in my opinion.
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You raise a good point here about the slice being a weakness against net rushers, but this not being as much of an issue in today's game.

If you think back to the 90's, Agassi and Courier were arguably the best baseliners in the game, and neither regularly used the slice except when stretched out for defense. They were usually playing an opponent who was breathing down their neck at the net (Sampras, Edberg, Stich, Rafter, etc).

Look at the best baseliners of the last few years (Djok, Nadal, Murray) and even the 2-handers now use the slice a fair amount.
 
All I know is that I have a higher % with my BH slice than my 2HBH drive. For defense, it's the obvious choice.

That's not how high-level players play; they tend to drive most shots, even when on defense. Obviously, I'm not a high-level player.
 
In the lower ranks a floating slice right at the base line with some side spin on is really good both pacing the rally and defending.

Also at the top level a floater will make your opponent put in all the pace on his next shot as seen on Federer’s games.

Low bouncing and penetrating slice, however often wins a point in low level play.

Don’t have any stats, but from experience often a set of a good margin topspin at the back, low slice at your opponents feet and a hard topspin at him with good depth will mostly result the next shot going either wide or long if countering the slice have not been hit into the net.


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Big Bagel said:
I disagree. I think the slice is generally better. The topspin shot will dip down, but it will also bounce up higher, giving your opponent an easier next shot. Also, the topspin shot will be faster and therefore give you less time to recover. The slice is more dangerous if the person is approaching the net because it sits up, but people don't approach the net the way they used to. The topspin will be easier to turn it around from a counterpuncher perspective and is easier to get on the offensive from a defensive position, in terms of just a defensive shot, the slice prevails in my opinion.
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The problem is as you get older you play more and more doubles. So there's already a person at the net. The other advice I've got, which is good, is to hit slice lobs in doubles. As for topspin shots sitting up, I'd say it's even. A bad slice or a bad top spin shot...both can be punished easily. A good slice vs a good topspin shot...both can cause problems for your opponent. However, decent topspin shots have a higher margin for error and a higher chance of gaining control of a point, than decent slice shots. Over the course of a game that risk/reward balance tends to add up in favor of topspin shots, unless you have an absolute killer of a slice.
 
I think it really depends. If you're quick and have good hands, then a 2hbh would have greater potential in turning defense into offense.

But if your opponent is trying to hit you off the court and attempting winners then bh slice would be a better option to stay alive in the point. Slice works well because it is a shot that requires very little effort to hit deep, which is exactly what you need when you're stretched wide, off-balance, or lack time to prepare for your shot. If you're late on the ball you sometimes can even play the shot from behind your body. Also bh slice has more reach than a 2hbh.

Bh slice is good for defense, but unless you're just waiting for your opponent to make an error, at some point you'll need to get out of the defensive position to win the point. So don't get too complacent, being too predictable with the slice will make you vulnerable to a net approach.
 
I actually have a higher % hitting topspin and flat 2HBHs than I do with slices, but that's because the timing on my slice and 2HBH is significantly different so I often mistime the slice and sail it long.

I'm trying to learn the jumping 2HBH to add some variety on the BH wing, because while I can hit very early quite consistently off that wing for my level, it'd be nice to be able to throw people off from time to time.

The guys I play with are pretty decent at dealing with slices unless they're skidding or are really deep. I always end up being run ragged if I hit a slice that isn't perfect.
 
mcs1970 said:
The problem is as you get older you play more and more doubles. So there's already a person at the net. The other advice I've got, which is good, is to hit slice lobs in doubles. As for topspin shots sitting up, I'd say it's even. A bad slice or a bad top spin shot...both can be punished easily. A good slice vs a good topspin shot...both can cause problems for your opponent. However, decent topspin shots have a higher margin for error and a higher chance of gaining control of a point, than decent slice shots. Over the course of a game that risk/reward balance tends to add up in favor of topspin shots, unless you have an absolute killer of a slice.
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Ha!! My problem is that I have a killer slice.

I think that what you offered above is right, but there's also the question of which shots can a certain player hit well. The risk/reward balance for me would favor my backhand slice - let's say in a challenge where I had to land thirty consecutive backhands to win $10,000.

We sometimes discuss the superiority of the one-hander vs. the two-handed backhand around here, but I don't really get into that one anymore. The "better" shot for a certain player is the one that he or she has a stronger aptitude to hit well. When we're on defense, we need reliable more than anything else and a topspin shot can be potentially as rock solid reliable as a slice depending on a player's skill set. So yeah, you're right on there.

I do think that the slower ball flight inherent with a slice is a big plus when we're on defense, but again, that's only useful in certain situations. Unless I put my slice on a dime and keep it scary low in a doubles setting, it's more prone to getting gobbled up by a net player compared with a topspin shot with a little more zip. My topspin return of serve has improved over recent years because of this issue. While I generally prefer to hit a one-hander, I'm stronger and quicker when hitting an aggressive topspin return of serve if I hit it two-handed.
 
mcs1970 said:
The problem is as you get older you play more and more doubles. So there's already a person at the net. The other advice I've got, which is good, is to hit slice lobs in doubles. As for topspin shots sitting up, I'd say it's even. A bad slice or a bad top spin shot...both can be punished easily. A good slice vs a good topspin shot...both can cause problems for your opponent. However, decent topspin shots have a higher margin for error and a higher chance of gaining control of a point, than decent slice shots. Over the course of a game that risk/reward balance tends to add up in favor of topspin shots, unless you have an absolute killer of a slice.
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Yes, in doubles I would say that the topspin is better on defense than the slice unless you've got a good slice lob. I just instinctively was talking about singles.

But I'm saying even a good topspin shot is going to bounce higher than a slice, and it's going to get to your opponent quicker. When on defense, you need to buy yourself time, and you want to avoid giving your opponent another good attacking shot. Mediocre topspin and slice shots can both be returned easily offensively, but I think most people are more comfortable returning a solid topspin shot (hit from a defensive position) in an attacking manner than they are returning a solid slice in an attacking manner. That, combined with having inherently more time to recover with a slice, makes the slice superior in a defensive position. This is assuming you can hit both a slice and a topspin shot adequately from this position, and again, in singles only. If your opponent is a net rusher I would go topspin, but most people these days are not, so I go to the slice first and think the majority of the time it will be more effective.
 
IowaGuy said:
No idea, but for an offensive slice I try to take a full backswing, starting the swing from behind my head to generate racket head speed.

Defensive slice I'm usually just trying to get a racket on the ball :)
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My slices either go long or hit the net when I take a full cut - half-hearted slices just float to mid-court.
I think mostly because I don't switch grip to conti or eastern from sw. What else could make the slice ineffective or outright error?
 
atp2015 said:
Where's the TT majority on this? I'm beginning to think that (at rec level) BH slice is a much better option as a defensive technique than 2hbh topspin. It's just damn hard to produce quality topspin using 2 hander in defensive situations.
It's a lot easier to slice low and hard than produce good enough flat or topspin shot using 2hbh. thoughts?
Click to expand...

Agree big-time.

I've been mystified with what seems to be the sort of marginalization of the backhand slice. I coach high school teams and almost nobody is learning that shot early on, but I've always counted it among the essentials that every developing player should learn. The 2hbh is a terrific shot, but no secret that its reach is mildly limited. If a player is stretched wide of even trying to scoop a low shot off their ankles, the slice can potentially offer a lot more than a two-hander.

Not declaring one shot to be better than the other, amen, but the slice is near and dear to me. So many players get to learning it after embracing the nuts and bolts of topspin strokes and their slices are usually crap. Teaching the slice to a topspin hitter is easily one of the toughest hurdles for any coach - once most of us get cozy with topspin shots, the slice becomes particularly counter-intuitive. Early familiarization with this shot for developing players can avoid big headaches down the road.
 
fuzz nation said:
Agree big-time.

I've been mystified with what seems to be the sort of marginalization of the backhand slice. I coach high school teams and almost nobody is learning that shot early on, but I've always counted it among the essentials that every developing player should learn. The 2hbh is a terrific shot, but no secret that its reach is mildly limited. If a player is stretched wide of even trying to scoop a low shot off their ankles, the slice can potentially offer a lot more than a two-hander.

Not declaring one shot to be better than the other, amen, but the slice is near and dear to me. So many players get to learning it after embracing the nuts and bolts of topspin strokes and their slices are usually crap. Teaching the slice to a topspin hitter is easily one of the toughest hurdles for any coach - once most of us get cozy with topspin shots, the slice becomes particularly counter-intuitive. Early familiarization with this shot for developing players can avoid big headaches down the road.
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Completely agree. So many coaches just focus on hitting the ball hard with topspin whenever possible. I interned with a coach that had his players play a "slice and forehand" game almost every day near the end of the warmup, and it was fantastic. Basically, they just fed the ball in from the baseline, and played out a point where every backhand had to be a slice. The kids learned a lot from that drill, and while it was wildly frustrating for a few, it made all of them better and I have continued to use it in my coaching.
 
Big Bagel said:
Completely agree. So many coaches just focus on hitting the ball hard with topspin whenever possible. I interned with a coach that had his players play a "slice and forehand" game almost every day near the end of the warmup, and it was fantastic. Basically, they just fed the ball in from the baseline, and played out a point where every backhand had to be a slice. The kids learned a lot from that drill, and while it was wildly frustrating for a few, it made all of them better and I have continued to use it in my coaching.
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Encouraging to say the least. Whenever I'm hitting with my high school players, I can give them fits when I send them a biting, low slice.

It's almost universally the case that any of the better high school singles players in my area who have learned a slice and some net attacking skills have an advantage over the baseline robots with one-dimensional games. Not a new issue, but it's as frustrating as ever.
 
atp2015 said:
My slices either go long or hit the net when I take a full cut - half-hearted slices just float to mid-court.
I think mostly because I don't switch grip to conti or eastern from sw. What else could make the slice ineffective or outright error?
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You want to be hitting conti (or very near conti) for slices. It's basically the same grip you would use for volleys.

I don't know of any pro that hits SW grip for BH slices, do you?
 
atp2015 said:
Where's the TT majority on this? I'm beginning to think that (at rec level) BH slice is a much better option as a defensive technique than 2hbh topspin. It's just damn hard to produce quality topspin using 2 hander in defensive situations.
It's a lot easier to slice low and hard than produce good enough flat or topspin shot using 2hbh. thoughts?
Click to expand...
at the very least, the slice (fh & bh) have a later contact point... and, "defensive" means i have less time, to prep... and the later contact gives me back more time (even if only a fraction of a second).
the ebh grip on the fh (squash shot), being the ultimate defensive shot.
 
Pete Player said:
In the lower ranks a floating slice right at the base line with some side spin on is really good both pacing the rally and defending.

Also at the top level a floater will make your opponent put in all the pace on his next shot as seen on Federer’s games.

Low bouncing and penetrating slice, however often wins a point in low level play.

Don’t have any stats, but from experience often a set of a good margin topspin at the back, low slice at your opponents feet and a hard topspin at him with good depth will mostly result the next shot going either wide or long if countering the slice have not been hit into the net.


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Click to expand...

This is my experience too. The other lower level people I play don't usually deal well with a low ball, or with putting pace back into the ball. A low slice will earn a lot of errors.
 
nytennisaddict said:
at the very least, the slice (fh & bh) have a later contact point... and, "defensive" means i have less time, to prep... and the later contact gives me back more time (even if only a fraction of a second).
the ebh grip on the fh (squash shot), being the ultimate defensive shot.
Click to expand...
Is the eastern bh grip the offical grip of a squash shot forehand?

Ive been feeling my grip slide more towards a bh when hitting my fh slice lately
 
StringSnapper said:
Is the eastern bh grip the offical grip of a squash shot forehand?

Ive been feeling my grip slide more towards a bh when hitting my fh slice lately
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Out of curiosity, why would you use a BH grip to describe a FH shot?

I think Continental is the easiest grip to hit the FH squash because the racquet face is the most open. I hit an Eastern FH and can usually pull off the shot with that grip. I've never tried with SW or W but would imagine it would be exponentially more difficult.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Out of curiosity, why would you use a BH grip to describe a FH shot?

I think Continental is the easiest grip to hit the FH squash because the racquet face is the most open. I hit an Eastern FH and can usually pull off the shot with that grip. I've never tried with SW or W but would imagine it would be exponentially more difficult.
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I'm quoting @nytennisaddict (i assume he meant eastern backhand grip by "ebh grip").. could be mistaken tho

I feel like the eastern bh grip forehand squash shot can get to balls a normal conti can't, like balls that have gone past you. Only to be used in certain situations tho, but i can see how it is the ultimate defensive shot cos of that.
 
StringSnapper said:
Is the eastern bh grip the offical grip of a squash shot forehand?

Ive been feeling my grip slide more towards a bh when hitting my fh slice lately
Click to expand...

lol, no idea, i’ve only played squash a few times and I sucked.
I just know that when the ball is far behind me, an eastern backhand grip on the fh, is the only grip that will work. obviously a desperation shot.

hehe the ebh fh slice always reminds of hitting a sand wedge in golf

personally don’t like the ebh on normal fh slice shots... prefer conti, as it let’s me get my weight moving toward the contact more... is to attack the contact more in front .


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StringSnapper said:
Is the eastern bh grip the offical grip of a squash shot forehand?

Ive been feeling my grip slide more towards a bh when hitting my fh slice lately
Click to expand...
I would agree with NYTA, eastern backhand is my go-to squash shot forehand in tennis. It's a desperation shot, gotta have high racquet head speed, you can get to balls slightly behind you and still get the back in play, and can sometimes give your opponents tricky shots instead of an easy put-away.

Normal slices I'll go continental all day, the only other times I'll sometimes go for an eastern backhand grip on the forehand side is on really low or stretch volleys, and occasionally on drop shots.
 
I'd bet that my forehand squash shot slice is more toward eastern backhand than continental, too.

Regular forehand slices work fine for me with a continental grip - those feel sort of like a long-distance forehand volley with just a little extra swing to it. I'll try to remember to hit one or two today with my high school troops and spot my grip position.
 
Big Bagel said:
Yes, in doubles I would say that the topspin is better on defense than the slice unless you've got a good slice lob. I just instinctively was talking about singles.

But I'm saying even a good topspin shot is going to bounce higher than a slice, and it's going to get to your opponent quicker. When on defense, you need to buy yourself time, and you want to avoid giving your opponent another good attacking shot. Mediocre topspin and slice shots can both be returned easily offensively, but I think most people are more comfortable returning a solid topspin shot (hit from a defensive position) in an attacking manner than they are returning a solid slice in an attacking manner. That, combined with having inherently more time to recover with a slice, makes the slice superior in a defensive position. This is assuming you can hit both a slice and a topspin shot adequately from this position, and again, in singles only. If your opponent is a net rusher I would go topspin, but most people these days are not, so I go to the slice first and think the majority of the time it will be more effective.
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I got the book, 'The Art of Doubles' as recommended by a few on this forum and was reading it yesterday. Interestingly, the author tells folks to eschew topspin shots for doubles and says that slice shots are the best. He says to use slice and underspin lobs. So maybe rather than having to radically change my game for doubles, I should be continuing with whatever I'm doing for singles but incorporating more lobs too. Jolly also mentioned the same thing.
 
mcs1970 said:
I got the book, 'The Art of Doubles' as recommended by a few on this forum and was reading it yesterday. Interestingly, the author tells folks to eschew topspin shots for doubles and says that slice shots are the best. He says to use slice and underspin lobs. So maybe rather than having to radically change my game for doubles, I should be continuing with whatever I'm doing for singles but incorporating more lobs too. Jolly also mentioned the same thing.
Click to expand...
Yes, offensive slices can work wonders in doubles; I use them very often when I play. That's when you can keep them low and they can be very tough to volley. But defensive slices are much more difficult to keep real low over the net and usually float a little much for doubles.
 
Last weekend i vsed a much more advanced head coach type player in doubles, and went out to practice my bh slice serve return. He wasnt having an amazing serve day, but man could i cream those bh slices. I was hitting lots of flatter "drive slices" i guess youd call them. Super efficient easy feeling shot, and easier to time than the 1hbh topspin
 
Big Bagel said:
Yes, offensive slices can work wonders in doubles; I use them very often when I play. That's when you can keep them low and they can be very tough to volley. But defensive slices are much more difficult to keep real low over the net and usually float a little much for doubles.
Click to expand...

You're repeating what we'd said earlier in the thread.

What I'm saying is that this book which is recommended by quite a few here is saying to keep slices in doubles, for both offensive shots and defensive shots, and give up on topspin shots. I guess he's saying lob it off your slice if you feel it will sit up. A different way of thinking.
 
Actually I want their topspin to enable me to slice backhand and rush to the net. Always keep the ball low and skid if you have quality of slice backhand.
 
mcs1970 said:
You're repeating what we'd said earlier in the thread.

What I'm saying is that this book which is recommended by quite a few here is saying to keep slices in doubles, for both offensive shots and defensive shots, and give up on topspin shots. I guess he's saying lob it off your slice if you feel it will sit up. A different way of thinking.
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I like this way of thinking, even for singles. Slice everything, unless you know you have time to rip a topspin, and go hard with it.

If you watch the Stanimal play, every 1hbh topspin he hits, he's had to earn it with usually at least 2 slices beforehand to give him the time to set it up.


For me though, the forehand slice is difficult. I've only ever topspinned it before. Gotta practice i guess.
 
I'm getting on the slice BH bandwagon as a longstanding 2HBH person. If you are playing a BH slicer, hitting topspin to his BH is a good idea. But if you are playing someone with topspin only, either run around FH or 2HBH, hitting slice into the BH corner will drive them nuts. They can't get underneath the ball to apply topspin leading to blasted balls long or opportunity balls.
 
Pete Player said:
Out of curiosity, how does your scooping work?



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Click to expand...
for extremely out of reach fh shot, wide, on the run, and slightly behind me... sometimes...
in the end it's a desperation shot... if i can't get it back with an ebh grip, i definitely won't get it back with a conti grip...
that said, it's not something i practice... more something that i've learned through improvisation and alot of matches
arguably, it's not even worth mentioning since it might lead some folks to "practice" it, when their practice time is better spent elsewhere.
 
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