Big 10 Tennis

vandre

Hall of Fame
Not sure what's going on with Illinois, but it's not good. Playing their usual killer schedule and....getting killed! Brown missed the Carolina trip so that didn't help. Clark is playing at #4 and struggling. The bottom half of the order used to be a strength, not so this season. Not sure what happened to Khilf? He could probably help out, maybe injured? At this rate it's going to be a disappointing season to say the least. Missing the 2 guys that transferred out of course, but even with those losses, they should be doing better.

And we're hosting the finals in 2022, unless recruiting picks up significantly looks like another missed chance to play at home.
i took my kids over to atkins last night. this is what i was able to observe between my oldest child asking me "did you see that dad?" and my twins hitting me up for coloring pages and crayons. in almost completely random order...

...the illini picked up the doubles point (which is something i've read they had difficulty with last season). there were some different pairings for doubles and changes to the singles lineup from our last visit. "siphs" (montsi) rolled through his match. we sat a few courts away from it so i could follow it too closely but it didn't seem like his opponent had many answers for montsi's play. i saw a few lengthy points on court 3 but most of them seemed fairly brief and there didn't seem to be much "downtime". so at that point u of i was up 2-0 in the meet. freshman lucas horve has been playing 5 and 6 singles this season. i saw his first match of the season. he was fighting hard. iirc, it went to a 10 point breaker. at around 3-4 in the breaker, horve hit a shot straight into the tape that went straight up into the air...and came down on his side of the court. he would go on to lose that match. in retrospect that one point is a pretty accurate summary of the season so far. he's had some rough loses this season but it seems as if he may be finding his "legs" and if he can i could see him perhaps turning into a "mini-zeke" (if montsi hasn't already claimed that title). it seemed like the second set of every singles match was extremely competitive. iirc, it was 4 all in the second set of ab's match so there was a moment there when it seemed like he might start to battle back. budic had set points in the second set of his match. zeke clark pulled out the second set before it seemed like he hit the wall at 2-1 in the third. i thought when i was watching this live that the illini were on the verge of rallying in some of these singles matches but i was wrong. i couldn't quite tell if that was due to a letdown or if the baylor player just slammed the door.

when i watched this meet in person it seemed like many of the singles matches got off to a slow start from the home team's perspective. maybe that's an issue? maybe baylor is stacked this year? maybe there are some players who are inexperienced or rusty at the moment. while this isn't the spot a fan wants to see their team in, i believe dancer will right the ship. afterall, he's outlasted the likes of zook, beckman, cubit, weber, groce, walker and more i'm probably forgetting.
 

vandre

Hall of Fame
u of i 4, northwestern 3 today. dancer picked up win #300 and zeke clark won the deciding match for the u of i.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
u of i 4, northwestern 3 today. dancer picked up win #300 and zeke clark won the deciding match for the u of i.
It was a fun match. Never seen that many people at college tennis match - and probably like 75% of people in the stands were actually IL fans. IL seems like a pretty decent team, i think their current record reflects a really tough early season schedule.
Still a bit disappointing that Northwestern could not pull it through. It is so hard to get those 4 singles wins against a quality opponent...
 

graycrait

Hall of Fame
I wonder what the USTA leadership thinks about this? Or are they so overcome with US Open issues to even think about anything else? Tennis in America is in danger of becoming something akin to jai alai or the world of polo ponies.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
I wonder what the USTA leadership thinks about this? Or are they so overcome with US Open issues to even think about anything else? Tennis in America is in danger of becoming something akin to jai alai or the world of polo ponies.
There was a talk this week-not a whole lot of ideas except regional tourneys including juniors and collegians and opening up facilities to communities but it attempts to answer your question...Might be too little, too late.
What USTA is Doing to Save College Tennis with Tim Cass
Tim Cass is General Manager, USTA National Campus
 

LOBALOT

Professional
The USTA has made a mess of everything. I find it very hard to believe they are going to fix what is happening with college tennis. They can't get junior tennis straight let alone college kids.

The USTA is interested in their own leadership career advancement and fulfillment.
 
The thing is, college tennis really shouldn’t be the one that is so often on the chopping block. It does not take up many scholarships and is pretty cheap compared to many sports on the budget. It does not lose near the amount of money as other sports.
 

Will Wilson

Semi-Pro
The thing is, college tennis really shouldn’t be the one that is so often on the chopping block. It does not take up many scholarships and is pretty cheap compared to many sports on the budget. It does not lose near the amount of money as other sports.
That is my question. The facilities are built and there aren’t that many scholarships involved. Seems like it’s not going to save that much money.


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jhick

Hall of Fame
The thing is, college tennis really shouldn’t be the one that is so often on the chopping block. It does not take up many scholarships and is pretty cheap compared to many sports on the budget. It does not lose near the amount of money as other sports.
It's not necessarily about the money. I found that out when the men's tennis program got cut due to title ix before my senior year. It was more about "we are making strides towards equality" or "this is a non essential sport". The revenue sports (football, basketball, etc.) will go untouched.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
All of this is laying bare the whole issue of college sports financing. Obviously the money is there if football and basketball is in full flight and the schools are getting all their normal TV revenue; and if the booster money shows up. But, even when all that money is sloshing around and you have non-revenue coaches making 400k (as just one example of high costs), the money is spent and, as we're seeing, any sort of disruption can cause big problems quickly.

I have a friend who went to Iowa suggested that Iowa was having some athletic department money problems even before Covid and Covid was the final nail.
 

Will Wilson

Semi-Pro
Minnesota’s program has had a history of too 30 or better teams with top notch academics. Great coach and state of the art facility. All down the drain. How much money is saved from 4.5 scholarships and two coaches? Sad day.


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jcgatennismom

Professional
Minnesota’s program has had a history of too 30 or better teams with top notch academics. Great coach and state of the art facility. All down the drain. How much money is saved from 4.5 scholarships and two coaches? Sad day.


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That's really sad. Minnesota is usually the 4th best tennis team in Big10. Felix Corwin '18 even had some success at Futures. If teams like Minnesota and Iowa are being cut, you have to wonder about Purdue, Michigan State, and Nebraska that are on the bottom. Geoff seemed to be a great guy and one of the more honest coaches as far as recruiting-a coach who wanted teams that could win but also players with character. His own son is a freshman on the team this year. Hard to believe that only a couple years ago the team had enough money to travel to the Australian Open in winter 2018. I know Minn spent a lot of $ on a big athletic complex that I think opened in 2018. Wish some of these unis had held on to some reserves, but because they are all supposedly "non-profit," most spent all their revenue so that point couldn't be argued. Now the Big10 and PAC 12 are deeply in debt and the other P5s with football played to a lesser degree. These schools should have gotten bridge loans and kept sports.
 

Larry Duff

Semi-Pro
Indiana may have problems if TV money dries up as their football program hardly makes much and they rely on the revenue spits. I would worry about their tennis program, mens is pretty much on the up , womens been stagnant since the 90s.
 

LOBALOT

Professional
Unbelievable. Traditionally they have had teams that sneak up on people. Whoever it is (and I don't know who that who is) needs to fix what is happening in college tennis.
 
That's really sad. Minnesota is usually the 4th best tennis team in Big10. Felix Corwin '18 even had some success at Futures. If teams like Minnesota and Iowa are being cut, you have to wonder about Purdue, Michigan State, and Nebraska that are on the bottom. Geoff seemed to be a great guy and one of the more honest coaches as far as recruiting-a coach who wanted teams that could win but also players with character. His own son is a freshman on the team this year. Hard to believe that only a couple years ago the team had enough money to travel to the Australian Open in winter 2018. I know Minn spent a lot of $ on a big athletic complex that I think opened in 2018. Wish some of these unis had held on to some reserves, but because they are all supposedly "non-profit," most spent all their revenue so that point couldn't be argued. Now the Big10 and PAC 12 are deeply in debt and the other P5s with football played to a lesser degree. These schools should have gotten bridge loans and kept sports.
Just about all of the universities rely on football and basketball revenue, in which the majorities of the athletes are people of color, to subsidize other sports like tennis, golf, swimming, wrestling, in which the majorities of athletes are white. Most of the football and basketball athletes either did not graduate or graduated without a meaningful degree to have a meaningful career while athletes in tennis, golf, swimming, wrestling graduated with degrees that afford them to have good paying jobs. Talk about modern day exploitation of minority athletes.

I am working for a financial service organization but we're also designated as "non-profit". We're allowed to keep up to 10% of the previous year net income over to the new year due to unpredictability of the stock market. However, colleges and universities, IMHO, do not operate that way. Schools are not allowed to raise money for example, upgrading athletic facility but then use the money for that specific purpose to fund the tennis program. It is NOT legal. High donors will cut off their funding to the school if anyone from the administration attempt to pull that stunt.

My son attended a very expensive private K-12 school. The school raised 100M to build a brand new academic/athletic building for a cost of 75M. The school could not use the 25M surplus from the fund raising to resurface the tennis court for a mere cost of 200K. The school board has to go back and ask for permission to use 200K to resurface the tennis court and the rest of the 25M to help teachers coping with covid-19.

If the schools former athletes in golf, tennis, swimming, etc.. have such good characters and successful like some mentioned here in the boards, why don't they become major donors to keep their programs from getting cut due to lack of funding and not reliant on revenue from football and basketball? The fact that it does not happen should tell you something about privilege and exploitation.
 
@bobleenov1963 $200K to resurface tennis courts. How many courts do they have 16? Sounds like a high bid unless the courts were in terrible shape, like almost unplayable.
@anfor; I used to play tennis there every weekends until covid-19 when they shut everything down. There are 8 tennis courts and the court gets resurface the every two years. The surface is exactly like Ashe stadium in Flushing Meadows. There is one main stadium court, another court on a smaller stadium and six other courts, all single court. These courts have very good drainage system built with thermal heat underneath that they court can get completely dried 15 minutes after heavy rain. I've never seen anything like it. I guess that's why it is expensive to resurface these courts because they don't want to mess things up.

Right next to the tennis facility is the athletic facility fully equipped with state of the art gym equipments, sauna, indoor swimming pool, massage table, recovery room, etc... The email I got from the school is that they got funding from ten big donors to fund maintenance of the tennis courts and facilities for the next 30 years.

Btw, public schools in the DMV area also have excellent tennis courts, almost equal to private schools and the courts and those courts get resurfaced like every five years. What they lack is the nice drainage system and underneath thermal heat to dry off the court quickly.
 
Minnesota’s program has had a history of too 30 or better teams with top notch academics. Great coach and state of the art facility. All down the drain. How much money is saved from 4.5 scholarships and two coaches? Sad day.


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This is the biggest misinformation as a lot of people in this forum don't realize the full cost to run tennis for many of these schools. At many places, the athletic department does not own the indoor (or even outdoor) tennis facility, but simply "rents" from the university. The rent price varies from place to place, but I would not be surprised if the cost to the program was 200k annually, which adds up really really quick.

One other factor Minnesota mentioned that is not being called out all is Title IX compliance. Remember, Title IX is not about providing 50:50 funding support for male/female sports, but rather, a reflection of male/female ratio of the overall student body. Across the country, the male/female ratio of college students is tilting more towards females. For Minnesota, with a $123 million budget for their athletic department, a 1% drop in male enrollment ratio would corresponding to over $1 million dollar decrease in funding for men's athletic programs
 

jhick

Hall of Fame
One other factor Minnesota mentioned that is not being called out all is Title IX compliance. Remember, Title IX is not about providing 50:50 funding support for male/female sports, but rather, a reflection of male/female ratio of the overall student body. Across the country, the male/female ratio of college students is tilting more towards females. For Minnesota, with a $123 million budget for their athletic department, a 1% drop in male enrollment ratio would corresponding to over $1 million dollar decrease in funding for men's athletic programs
If colleges really took title IX seriously, they would cut their football program, as there are no women's sports programs that carry anywhere near that amount of players. But we all know that's not going to happen. For title IX, cutting small programs (like tennis) is basically saying "We are making progress", but doesn't do much of anything towards the bottom line.
 
If colleges really took title IX seriously, they would cut their football program, as there are no women's sports programs that carry anywhere near that amount of players. But we all know that's not going to happen. For title IX, cutting small programs (like tennis) is basically saying "We are making progress", but doesn't do much of anything towards the bottom line.
Again, not about number of players/scholarships. All about overall funding.

If you cut football, you'll have to cut a good number of women sports as otherwise, there will be an imbalance and you subject yourself to legal issues.
 

jhick

Hall of Fame
Again, not about number of players/scholarships. All about overall funding.

If you cut football, you'll have to cut a good number of women sports as otherwise, there will be an imbalance and you subject yourself to legal issues.
Are you trying to imply that funding is not directly correlated to number of players/scholarships? Name one women's sport that comes anywhere close in funding to that of men's football.

Here is an article in Forbes that discusses this very issue.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2019/04/24/why-gender-equity-in-college-sports-is-impossible-unless-colleges-do-something-radical/#6b624569244e
 

andfor

Legend
Love to hear BJK's take on Title IX and it's impact on men's tennis cuts. I believe she was a champion for it back in 72 or whenever it was past.

Regardless, it was celebrated as a win for women's equity then. And it is, but it's another example of gobament unintended consequences that rears its ugly head after a bill is passed.
 

silentkman

Semi-Pro
Love to hear BJK's take on Title IX and it's impact on men's tennis cuts. I believe she was a champion for it back in 72 or whenever it was past.

Regardless, it was celebrated as a win for women's equity then. And it is, but it's another example of gobament unintended consequences that rears its ugly head after a bill is passed.
The bottom line is that women are taking over at at schools. at some point soon, the number will be 60/40 women. More men need to go to college.

 

andfor

Legend
The bottom line is that women are taking over at at schools. at some point soon, the number will be 60/40 women. More men need to go to college.

True. And the education system as a whole needs to adjust how they go about teaching males if they want that to stem that tide.
 
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jhick

Hall of Fame
How exactly should they adjust to teaching males?
Traditional sit in the class all day learning does not generally work well for boys. They tend to learn much better by doing and experiencing, Our modern education system does not and cannot work this way (other than the occasional field trip) as a one size fits all approach. Homeschooling provides an alternative where one can tailor it to their child's learning style. However, that is not feasible for many in society, especially in single family homes or ones where both parents work.

I'll add that homeschooling has become more popular and easier since the invention of the internet and information available at the touch of a button. However, sifting though and disseminating what is true and what is false is much harder.
 

silentkman

Semi-Pro
Traditional sit in the class all day learning does not generally work well for boys. They tend to learn much better by doing and experiencing, Our modern education system does not and cannot work this way (other than the occasional field trip) as a one size fits all approach. Homeschooling provides an alternative where one can tailor it to their child's learning style. However, that is not feasible for many in society, especially in single family homes or ones where both parents work.

I'll add that homeschooling has become more popular and easier since the invention of the internet and information available at the touch of a button. However, sifting though and disseminating what is true and what is false is much harder.
I wound counter with it's worked well for a long time. I do however believe the video game epidemic is a major problem. I may have to talk an educator to learn more. Generally males have a greater interest in sports and that means the non revenue male sports will suffer. Honestly, I still can't believe bowling is a sport.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Minnesota’s program has had a history of too 30 or better teams with top notch academics. Great coach and state of the art facility. All down the drain. How much money is saved from 4.5 scholarships and two coaches? Sad day.


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Yep. Minnesota always top half of the B1G and back in the day - the 1980s (and maybe earliest part of the 1990s) - they were usually Top 2 and Top 25 nationally - MN and Michigan generally ruled the roost before it spread out a little more.

This surprises me because they have The Baseline Club - a booster group. MSP is a metro that is pretty well off financially - lots of corporate headquarters, a high standard of living - and tennis is big even though it has to be played indoors much of the year. Maybe they can get private funds. But there are always Title IX implications as well.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Gymnastics and T&F too. Wow.

Track is an easy sport to cut - but it makes me sad since I love the sport. It used to be a foundational sport - people who played other sports would run track as well, but now so much specialization.
 

jcgatennismom

Professional
@silentkman At many smaller universities, the ratio is already close to 60/40 female to male and that is with half the males who enroll playing sports, esp at D2. Those unis can't cut sports or they'd kill their enrollment. Of course, those players are probably getting a mix of athletic and merit aid but still probably paying 50%-2/3 of the cost of attendance. The flagship P5s can cut sports without hurting enrollment as they have waiting lists and only 3% of undergrads are athletes. At smaller colleges, 40%+ may be athletes. There are 50+ 4 year colleges where 50% or more of undergrads are varsity athletes. The % rate is really high at some of the military academies too-supposedly 87% of students at Air Force play a sport.
 
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ClarkC

Hall of Fame
1960's and 1970's college administrators: "More men than women go to college. We need to do something about this!"

21st century: More women than men go to college. Response: silence.

All leftist talk about "equality" is a smoke screen, totally bogus.
 

silentkman

Semi-Pro
1960's and 1970's college administrators: "More men than women go to college. We need to do something about this!"

21st century: More women than men go to college. Response: silence.

All leftist talk about "equality" is a smoke screen, totally bogus.
You need to quit while you are behind. Typical statement by someone afraid of women and equality. Just showing your true colors. This has been a huge talking point for a long time. Tennis is just not important to most colleges.
 

mikej

Hall of Fame
You need to quit while you are behind. Typical statement by someone afraid of women and equality. Just showing your true colors. This has been a huge talking point for a long time. Tennis is just not important to most colleges.
I’m staying out of this one, since I basically got accused of being a KKK member who should be fired from his job for suggesting Duke basketball players weren’t valedictorians with 2350 SATs a couple weeks ago.
 

andfor

Legend
I’m staying out of this one, since I basically got accused of being a KKK member who should be fired from his job for suggesting Duke basketball players weren’t valedictorians with 2350 SATs a couple weeks ago.
Neither if you said anything wrong. Only pointing out truth and hypocrisy that triggers some to jump to irrational and baseless hateful conclusions.
 

ClarkC

Hall of Fame
You need to quit while you are behind. Typical statement by someone afraid of women and equality. Just showing your true colors. This has been a huge talking point for a long time. Tennis is just not important to most colleges.
Notice that I put "equality" in scare quotes, because of the usage people like you employ. If a college is 60% women and 40% men, then equality would demand an effort to get to 50/50, right?
 
It’s a little different at Illinois, which has a 54/46 ratio of male to female undergrads (18385/15530), although the faculty is pretty equal - 51/49 male to female.
 

silentkman

Semi-Pro
Notice that I put "equality" in scare quotes, because of the usage people like you employ. If a college is 60% women and 40% men, then equality would demand an effort to get to 50/50, right?
No, that is not correct. You just don't get it. Now people are claiming the disparity is because boys learn differently girls. The girls are just working their asses off. This is typical speak form the extreme right. Not sure why you are afraid of women.
 
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