Big 3 - Lowest level in each major final

StrongRule said:
I don't think Nadal hit something like 3 unforced errors in 2 full sets in any of these matches. Actually, he was hitting tons of errors there.
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Doesn't matter. Balls were flying past him in 2020 he could have easily reached in 2011/2014.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Bc it was.
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I understand that as a Djokovic fan you want to bring down the 2020 match as much as possible. Maybe even make it look like it never happened. Djokovic fans are in shock, they expected a repeat of the 2015 1/4 final and got a blow. I get it. But let's still try to be objective. Like I don't try to bring down Djokovic's performance in AO 2019 final.
 
StrongRule said:
I understand that as a Djokovic fan you want to bring down the 2020 match as much as possible. Maybe even make it look like it never happened. Djokovic fans are in shock, they expected a repeat of the 2015 1/4 final and got a blow. I get it. But let's still try to be objective. Like I don't try to bring down Djokovic's performance in AO 2019 final.
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I never said Nadal didn't play well. He did well for what he is capable of in a 34 year old body, but I am only comparing it to his OWN level in past RG finals. This has nothing to do with Djokovic. So aren't you the one bringing down his level in 2011/2014? Imo, the fact he can still win RG playing his lowest level final against Djokovic should tell you how much I rate him.
 
ADuck said:
I never said Nadal didn't play well. He did well for what he is capable of in a 34 year old body, but I am only comparing it to his OWN level in past RG finals. This has nothing to do with Djokovic. So aren't you the one bringing down his level in 2011/2014? Imo, the fact he can still win RG playing his lowest level final against Djokovic should tell you how much I rate him.
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Same. Nadal's FH-DTL was crispy af in 2014 and his movement and groundstrokes were out of this world in the 2011 final.

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MichaelNadal said:
Same. Nadal's FH-DTL was crispy af in 2014 and his movement and groundstrokes were out of this world in the 2011 final.
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And I guess the 2015 1/4 final is the best ever match Nadal played in RG. And Djokovic is still somehow unbeatable in 2020. What is his streak of wins excluding losses now? I already lost count.

Your comments become stranger every day.
 
StrongRule said:
And I guess the 2015 1/4 final is the best ever match Nadal played in RG. And Djokovic is still somehow unbeatable in 2020. What is his streak of wins excluding losses now? I already lost count.

Your comments become stranger every day.
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What does 2015 have to do with 2011 and 2014?
 
StrongRule said:
Well, you are overrating Nadal's worst performances in RG.
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You have to be trolling lol. I've watched this year's match like 5x now. Each time im slightly less impressed with Nadal's level. Again it just goes to show how far ahead of everyone he is on clay. Even last year the way he was CRACKING the ball and murdered Thiem, he looked way better. He was too "safe" for me this year which makes the scoreline that much more weird. I think he played better against Diego.
 
StrongRule said:
I understand that as a Djokovic fan you want to bring down the 2020 match as much as possible. Maybe even make it look like it never happened. Djokovic fans are in shock, they expected a repeat of the 2015 1/4 final and got a blow. I get it. But let's still try to be objective. Like I don't try to bring down Djokovic's performance in AO 2019 final.
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MichaelNadal a Djokovic fan? I have heard it all.
 
MichaelNadal said:
You have to be trolling lol. I've watched this year's match like 5x now. Each time im slightly less impressed with Nadal's level. Again it just goes to show how far ahead of everyone he is on clay. Even last year the way he was CRACKING the ball and murdered Thiem, he looked way better. He was too "safe" for me this year which makes the scoreline that much more weird. I think he played better against Diego.
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nah, he definitely played better vs Djoko than vs Diego this year.
 
ADuck said:
I feel all previous renditions of Nadal would beat the one in RG 2020. His performance is overrated because of the name of opponent (who also played his worst ever RG final).
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2020 better than 2019, 2018, and 2014 imo atleast. I got 2017 vibes watching the final initially.
 
MichaelNadal said:
His serve was definitely great and he had amazing depth on his shots which held Djokovic back and made a huge difference.
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Agreed and I think it was the best way to play Djokovic in the fall conditions. It wasn't the spectacular gets or amazing shotmaking of the past really. It was more of a veteran evolved version of Nadal. In warm weather I think it would have looked a lot like 2017 if that makes sense.
 
PeoplesChamp said:
2020 better than 2019, 2018, and 2014 imo atleast. I got 2017 vibes watching the final initially.
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The scoreline and match itself might give off that impression but being a Nadal fan for several years and watching so many clay matches of his, there's just a very slim chance it would be the same way if he vsed a previous version of himself.

Although smarter he was far slower and less physical in every single way. Also even though he dominated the match, he barely had a couple easy games. He gives up on far more points nowadays even compared to 2017. I'd take all those 3 you mentioned against 2020 Nadal every single day.
 
ADuck said:
The scoreline and match itself might give off that impression but being a Nadal fan for several years and watching so many clay matches of his, there's just a very slim chance it would be the same way if he vsed a previous version of himself.

Although smarter he was far slower and less physical in every single way. Also even though he dominated the match, he barely had a couple easy games. He gives up on far more points nowadays even compared to 2017. I'd take all those 3 you mentioned against 2020 Nadal every single day.
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I can see an argument for 2014, but not 2018 and 2019. Thiem had Nadal on the ropes until he went for a bathroom break. Thiem run out of steam after that. 2020 Nadal better than 2019 Nadal all day long and 2018 too. Djokovic wasn't that good, but Nadal kept him pinned in the back with depth which is something he's not always been known for. Nadal didn't always need depth because he had the legs to run everything down.
 
Nah, the more I think about it 2014 Nadal worse than 2020. I'm sticking to it. Seems that everyone has varied opinions on Nadal at RG more than anyone anywhere lol.
 
PeoplesChamp said:
I can see an argument for 2014, but not 2018 and 2019. Thiem had Nadal on the ropes until he went for a bathroom break. Thiem run out of steam after that. 2020 Nadal better than 2019 Nadal all day long and 2018 too. Djokovic wasn't that good, but Nadal kept him pinned in the back with depth which is something he's not always been known for. Nadal didn't always need depth because he had the legs to run everything down.
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Thiem never had Nadal "on the ropes" in 2019. Aside from when he was a break up in the first, he never led in the score. Him getting that second set was very lucky, just look at the stats, Nadal was better up until the blip at the end. The real place where the match was decided was the first set where both were playing at their highest level at the same time for stretches and Nadal still came up on top. And you can't attribute the sheer difference in levels in set 3/4 to a simple bathroom break, that sounds salty dude.

Also you seem to forget Thiem was easily the superior opponent in both 2018/2019. Although his depth this year on his groundstrokes was impressive, it's not significantly different enough to other matches to be an anomaly. Point is though, depth wouldn't have the same effect on Thiem as it did on Djokovic, and depth isn't the only factor when it comes to effectiveness of shot, so basing it only on that is wrong.

2018 I suspect would also beat 2020 just due to better movement and physicality too. I can see a better argument for 2018 but 2019 nah. 2019 final was actually better than 2017 final for me which was also overrated.
 
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Federer:

AO - 2018 (probably his weakest slam)
RG - 2008 (no explanantion needed)
WI - 2015 (I don't think he ever played bad in a WI final but if I had to pick it would be '15)
USO - 2015 (what was he like 2 for 30 on BPs)

Nadal:

AO - 2014 (if Rafa had one do-over in his career it would be this one but with a functioning body)
RG: 2011 (this one is tough for obvious reasons but he looked most vulnerable in 2011)
WI: 2006 (he had no business being at a WI final with Fed at that point in his career)
USO: 2011 (process of elimination)

Djokovic:
AO - 2020 (got a bit lucky to escape this one)
RG - 2020 (yeah I think this one is quite obvious too)
WI - 2013 (no question on this one either)
US - 2016 (he shouldn't have even made it to the finals given his lackluster form)
 
ADuck said:
Thiem never had Nadal "on the ropes" in 2019. Aside from when he was a break up in the first, he never led in the score. Him getting that second set was very lucky, just look at the stats, Nadal was better up until the blip at the end. The real place where the match was decided was the first set where both were playing at their highest level at the same time for stretches and Nadal still came up on top. And you can't attribute the sheer difference in levels in set 3/4 to a simple bathroom break, that sounds salty dude.

Also you seem to forget Thiem was easily the superior opponent in both 2018/2019. Although his depth this year on his groundstrokes was impressive, it's not significantly different enough to other matches to be an anomaly. Point is though, depth wouldn't have the same effect on Djokovic as it did on Thiem, and depth isn't the only factor when it comes to effectiveness of shot, so basing it only on that is wrong.

2018 I suspect would also beat 2020 just due to better movement and physicality too. I can see a better argument for 2018 but 2019 nah. 2019 final was actually better than 2017 final for me which was also overrated.
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Wow, now I'm salty for pointing out the obvious. Thiem should have won the 1st set and it was only justice that he snagged the 2nd. At no point did I ever feel that I was looking at the dominant Nadal of yesteryear in that match. I saw a Nadal that knew how to take advantage of a drained, mind fecked opponent. Slick haired combed over Ralph did his thing. A win is a win, but imo the ugliest oldest looking Nadal ever to lift a RG trophy. Of course no one knows how to do it better in that particular environment than the KOC himself. Anyways, you are severely underrating 2020 Nadal and should think long and hard about what you have done.
 
Nadal:

AO - 2014 (if Rafa had one do-over in his career it would be this one but with a functioning body)
RG: 2011 (this one is tough for obvious reasons but he looked most vulnerable in 2011)
WI: 2006 (he had no business being at a WI final with Fed at that point in his career)
USO: 2011 (process of elimination)

Djokovic:
AO - 2020 (got a bit lucky to escape this one)
RG - 2020 (yeah I think this one is quite obvious too)
WI - 2013 (no question on this one either)
US - 2016 (he shouldn't have even made it to the finals given his lackluster form)
[/QUOTE]

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PeoplesChamp said:
Thiem should have won the 1st set and it was only...
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Oh no... Starting to sound all too familiar dude. Enough of the "should have" crap. I've scoured through infinite alternate timelines and there was no universe where Thiem won that first set of that match. He was outplayed comprehensively. Exposed. Left naked on the floor. Should have, could have, didn't. Stick to reality otherwise discussions are fruitless.

PeoplesChamp said:
Anyways, you are severely underrating 2020 Nadal and should think long and hard about what you have done.
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I'll tell mummy to smack me on the bottom.
 
ADuck said:
I think he played at a higher level in the 2019 final than both the 2017 and 2018 final.
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Third Serve said:
The 2017 final was the best he’d played on clay in a long, long time.
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ADuck said:
I don't think so... what was so special about how he played?
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Third Serve said:
The way he slaughtered Stan even though he was actually playing quite decently was something else. It’s a bit different from crushing a poor Thiem in the 2018 final.
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ADuck said:
I actually think Nadal could have crushed him a bit more than he did though. Didn't he only break once per set? And Stan played reasonably well, but he has a bad matchup with Nadal.
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Sabrina said:
No Nadal broke Stan's serve for 6 times in that match IIRC (only once in set 2).
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ADuck said:
Ah, my memory fails me then. I think it was the second set where I think he played rather conservative when he could have gone up a gear which makes me rank it lower than other people here.
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Third Serve said:
6-2 6-3 6-1 indicates about two breaks per set.
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@ADuck :laughing:

Now, watch out how you speak to me and have a good day, son (y)

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ADuck said:
Not sure what you think you just accomplished? And I'd offer the same advice to you thanks.
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Looks like to me that you didn't watch the 2017 Final which in turn puts into question your attitude towards me in which you depict yourself as an all knowing Nadal fan that can't possibly be wrong since I'm just a Fed fan. Granted, I'm sure you know a lot more about Nadal than I do in general. That doesn't necessarily mean you are better judge of his level in a RG final. A simple statement that you made earlier makes me question you even more when speaking on depth of shots. Unless it's a freaking LOB a deep shot is almost always a plus even if off pace a little. Don't try to tell me that deep shots are less effective vs Thiem than Djokovic either. Djokovic being one of the best defenders of all time ? Give me a fecking break. Thiem with a one hander to boot automatically makes his life tougher facing Nadal. Then again, you think 6-1 sets only have one break of serve so it's understandable :laughing:.
 
PeoplesChamp said:
Looks like to me that you didn't watch the 2017 Final which in turn puts into question your attitude towards me in which you depict yourself as an all knowing Nadal fan that can't possibly be wrong since I'm just a Fed fan. Granted, I'm sure you know a lot more about Nadal than I do in general. That doesn't necessarily mean you are better judge of his level in a RG final. A simple statement that you made earlier makes me question you even more when speaking on depth of shots. Unless it's a freaking LOB a deep shot is almost always a plus even if off pace a little. Don't try to tell me that deep shots are less effective vs Thiem than Djokovic either. Djokovic being one of the best defenders of all time ? Give me a fecking break. Thiem with a one hander to boot automatically makes his life tougher facing Nadal. Then again, you think 6-1 sets only have one break of serve so it's understandable :laughing:.
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You're going off-topic. Nevertheless, I watched it dude. You can check match threads leading up to the final. I probably didnt comment during the final due to superstition, but I watched it live. Those comments don't prove anything you think they do.

The thing is Djokovic is not the guy he used to be on clay, so I stand by that comment. Djokovic is more likely to struggle off shots he needs to create his own pace with than Thiem is (the guy who is/was regularly called a brainless ball-basher), and on top of that, Nadal won't be as easily able to create effective shots against Thiem, who is cracking the ball nowadays with as much work as Nadal is.
 
Mivic said:
Federer:
AO: 2018 6/10
RG: 2008 5/10
W: 2019 7/10 - hard to gauge how well Federer played here and how it stacks up to say 2014 because of how off Djokovic was at times. When both were playing to their capabilities in the first set I thought the quality was pretty good though. Not a bad showing.
USO: 2015 7.5/10

Nadal:
AO: 2014 4/10 - closely followed by 2019. 2017 wasn’t great either tbh.
RG: 2020 8/10 - not too confident about my pick here.
W: 2006 7/10 - seems to be a controversial opinion around here but I think Federer made him look better than he was in this one.
USO: 2019 6.5/10 - I don’t see Nadal of 2019 producing anything remotely close to the quality that he produced off the ground in the third set of the 2011 final and can’t see him taking a set off of peak Djokovic, even if his serve was better than it was in 2011.

Djokovic:
AO: 2020 6.5/10 - not entirely sure, might have even overrated it. I think his top level in this match was better than Federer’s in 2018 though.
RG: 2020 3/10 - easily Djokovic’s worst slam final performance, and that’s saying something. Hopelessly impotent from the baseline, an error machine, and completely mentally unprepared to face an opponent playing at anything resembling an ATG level. The prolonged semi final probably didn’t help either.
W: 2013 4/10
USO: 2016 5.5/10 - followed by 2013. 2007 also not too far behind due to mentality but playing level was possibly better than 2013 overall.
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Federer was at his best in this final. I doubt Federer could have been expected to beat Nadal much easier and he bagled him in set 1.
 
Djokovic:
AO: 08 (8.5/10)
RG: 14 (6.5/10)
W: 13 (6/10)
USO: 07 (6.5/10)

Federer:
AO: 06 or 18 (7.5/10)
RG: 08 (2/10)
W: 09 (7/10)
USO: 09 (7.5/10)
 
Federer
AO 2018
RG 2008
Wim 2015/2019
USO 2015

Nadal
AO 2019
RG?
Wim 2006/2011
USO 2011

Djokovic
AO 2020
RG 2020
Wim 2013
USO 2016
 
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Third Serve said:
Fedr:

AO: 2018 6/10 (the next two being 2006 and 2017)
RG: 2008 3.5/10 (the next being 2011 imo, though one could argue for one of 2006, 2007, and 2011)
W: 2019 6/10 (next up is 2014 and then 2015; yeah, I think Fed played a bit better in 2015 than 2014)
USO: 2015 6.5/10 (next is 2009)

Ned:

AO: 2019 4/10 (next is 2014)
RG: lol, but if I had to say one, maybe 2018 8/10? Dunno what comes after that.
W: 2011 6/10 (next is 2006)
USO: 2011 or 2019 6.5/10, lean 2011

Djoker:

AO: 2020 6/10 (next is 2015)
RG: 2020 3.5/10 (next are 2014 and 2015)
W: 2013 4/10 (next is 2019)
USO: 2016 4/10 (next is 2007)
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Time to amend this list a bit. Seems like I was a bit harsh here:

Third Serve said:
Fedr:

AO: 2018 7/10 (the next two being 2006 and 2017)
RG: 2008 3.5/10 (the next being 2011 imo, though one could argue for one of 2006, 2007, and 2011)
W: 2019 7/10 (next up is 2014 and then 2015; yeah, I think Fed played a bit better in 2015 than 2014)
USO: 2015 7/10 (next is 2009)

Ned:

AO: 2019 4/10 (next is 2014)
RG: lol, but if I had to say one, maybe 2018 8.5/10? Dunno what comes after that.
W: 2011 7/10 (next is 2006)
USO: 2011 or 2019 7/10, lean 2011

Djoker:

AO: 2020 7/10 (next is 2015)
RG: 2020 3.5/10 (next are 2014 and 2015)
W: 2013 5/10 (next is 2019)
USO: 2016 5/10 (next is 2007)
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