Big 3 racquet specs and what it means for their respective games

Rui Lopes

Rookie
It´s funny how people think that Federer plays with a 340 swingweight. Wilson really did a good job on promoting the Federer racket for sale...
Federer playing with 340 swingweight it´s just stupid...
 

Odinn21

Rookie
It´s funny how people think that Federer plays with a 340 swingweight. Wilson really did a good job on promoting the Federer racket for sale...
Federer playing with 340 swingweight it´s just stupid...
Seems to be in line with other sources. Don't know about this attitude.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
It´s funny how people think that Federer plays with a 340 swingweight. Wilson really did a good job on promoting the Federer racket for sale...
Federer playing with 340 swingweight it´s just stupid...
I'm willing to be corrected if you have evidence to back you up, and not conjecture or personal opinion.

Every source I have checked, including Federer's stringers at the tournaments, people who've gotten hands on his match frame, and match frames put up for auction on TW itself lists his strung SW at 340.

His SW has gone down since the switch to the 97, but it's been compensated with a significant bump in twistweight.

My RF97A is at 340 SW as well (nothing to do with Fed, I just liked that SW, and like you thought he used a higher SW), and so are my PS90s. The PS90 is by far easier to swing despite the identical SWs (I end up overhitting and hitting too early), so it makes sense that when Federer switched to the 97 his SW went down.
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
Seems to be in line with other sources. Don't know about this attitude.
You believe in what you wan´t. Federer has more swingweight for shure. For the last few years , you can see Federer trying to end points ealier , so he can save his legs , and you think he does that with a lower swingweight? His backhand is more powerfull , and you think he has lowered the swingweight? Maybe it´s the technique..maybe he didn´t know how to hit it , and now with a lower swingweight he does…
I´m an amateur , and play a few times per week and can play fine with that 340 swingweight , not my best but i can play it. I can´t imagine Federer playing with only that , not against guys that keep throwing missiles towards him...
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
I'm willing to be corrected if you have evidence to back you up, and not conjecture or personal opinion.

Every source I have checked, including Federer's stringers at the tournaments, people who've gotten hands on his match frame, and match frames put up for auction on TW itself lists his strung SW at 340.

His SW has gone down since the switch to the 97, but it's been compensated with a significant bump in twistweight.

My RF97A is at 340 SW as well (nothing to do with Fed, I just liked that SW, and like you thought he used a higher SW), and so are my PS90s. The PS90 is by far easier to swing despite the identical SWs (I end up overhitting and hitting too early), so it makes sense that when Federer switched to the 97 his SW went down.
I suppose that his stringers , couldn´t keep the comercial thing going...he has personal stringers that fly with him to everywhere he goes playing , and you can´t imagine federer telling them to not reveal his true specs , because of his contract with Wilson...
You believe what you wan´t. Thare´s still a lot of people in this fórum that believe that Top Pro´s play with the same rackets that they put out for sale to everyone else...
Making you believe that you are able to play with what Federer is playing , it´s a nice dream isn´t it… Keep living that dream...
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
I'm willing to be corrected if you have evidence to back you up, and not conjecture or personal opinion.

Every source I have checked, including Federer's stringers at the tournaments, people who've gotten hands on his match frame, and match frames put up for auction on TW itself lists his strung SW at 340.

His SW has gone down since the switch to the 97, but it's been compensated with a significant bump in twistweight.

My RF97A is at 340 SW as well (nothing to do with Fed, I just liked that SW, and like you thought he used a higher SW), and so are my PS90s. The PS90 is by far easier to swing despite the identical SWs (I end up overhitting and hitting too early), so it makes sense that when Federer switched to the 97 his SW went down.
Funny that untill a few time ago , people thought that the 104 blade that was up for sale was the racket that Serena was actually playing..,And now, i guess that everyone is shure that she plays with a lot more weight and swingweight , but you still believe you are playing the same way that Federer does...
What a beautiful lie you live in...
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
I suppose that his stringers , couldn´t keep the comercial thing going...he has personal stringers that fly with him to everywhere he goes playing , and you can´t imagine federer telling them to not reveal his true specs , because of his contract with Wilson...
You believe what you wan´t. Thare´s still a lot of people in this fórum that believe that Top Pro´s play with the same rackets that they put out for sale to everyone else...
Making you believe that you are able to play with what Federer is playing , it´s a nice dream isn´t it… Keep living that dream...
I am fully aware of what paint jobs are. If you read my OP again, you'll notice that the frame I listed for Djokovic is not the frame that he is endorsing. Same with Nadal, who uses the first generation APD painted to look like the most recent one.

Wilson does not make money advertising a racquet's SW, but they do make money off the frame itself. They were hit with a class action lawsuit a while back for not selling the actual racquet Federer uses (back when he was using the 90). The good news is that when he changed to his 97, Wilson took it as an opportunity to put onto store shelves racquets that were as close to the real thing as possible. People who work for pro racquet customisation services (eg P1) have indicated in the past that Fed's frames are essentially the same RF97As sold commercially, but they are hand picked and customised to Federer's exact preferences. Those numbers have been shared in the past, and are the same numbers that I have quoted.

Literally no-one here thinks pros use racquets that they endorse. If you refuse to believe the guys who actually have Federer's match frames and measured them or the guys who have strung for Federer himself, I don't know what to tell you.

And why specifically Federer? Surely you must think Nadal and Djokovic's racquet specs must be fraudulent too.
 

Odinn21

Rookie
I´m an amateur , and play a few times per week and can play fine with that 340 swingweight , not my best but i can play it. I can´t imagine Federer playing with only that , not against guys that keep throwing missiles towards him...
And this is what's wrong with your attitude. Those guys are playing for at least 2, 3 hours per match with those racquets and they are not facing the shots you're facing as an amateur. 340 SW for you and me is not the same with 340 SW for pros. There's a reason why most of us are (should be at least) labeled recreational players. I'd like you to see playing with a 340 SW racquet for an hour against a top 100 player in the tour, let alone the big three.

Also, there is a transparent difference in specs between what they endorse and what they use. Just, Federer's specs seem to be to closest to what he endorses.
 
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Rui Lopes

Rookie
I am fully aware of what paint jobs are. If you read my OP again, you'll notice that the frame I listed for Djokovic is not the frame that he is endorsing. Same with Nadal, who uses the first generation APD painted to look like the most recent one.

Wilson does not make money advertising a racquet's SW, but they do make money off the frame itself. They were hit with a class action lawsuit a while back for not selling the actual racquet Federer uses (back when he was using the 90). The good news is that when he changed to his 97, Wilson took it as an opportunity to put onto store shelves racquets that were as close to the real thing as possible. People who work for pro racquet customisation services (eg P1) have indicated in the past that Fed's frames are essentially the same RF97As sold commercially, but they are hand picked and customised to Federer's exact preferences. Those numbers have been shared in the past, and are the same numbers that I have quoted.

Literally no-one here thinks pros use racquets that they endorse. If you refuse to believe the guys who actually have Federer's match frames and measured them or the guys who have strung for Federer himself, I don't know what to tell you.

And why specifically Federer? Surely you must think Nadal and Djokovic's racquet specs must be fraudulent too.
Nadal and Djokovic swingweights seem logical , federer doesn´t...
But thats ok , i´m convinced know...
Next time Federer calls you to go hit with him , don´t bother taking you´re own rackets, he will borrow you one of his and you will feel at home with it...After all , he has a lot of rackets that he gets from the shelf on the local Wilson store...
It´s funny that are some people here that everytime someone doesn´t agree with them , they automatically have an attitude issue. Forget my attitude , and enjoy you´re federer stick...
 

TheIntrovert

Hall of Fame
Yes, please don't take my previous posts to mean that I think only bad players blame equipment for joint problems. I don't doubt that there are fantastic players out there with good to immaculate technique such as yourself getting them, but from what I've read on these boards and what I've seen IRL, the vast majority if not an overwhelming number of players who whinge about stiff racquets and strings causing tennis / golfer's elbow and shoulder problems are not as good as you, and it's more likely that these low level players' poor technique is what is causing unnecessary stress on their joints.

There was a guy I used to play with who said polys ought to be banned because it always causes elbow and wrist problems for him and everyone he knew. Not only did he not meet many people (whereas my group occasionally as former high-ranking university players and even a former pro with ATP points play with us, probably to write down as a charity deductible at the end of the year), I knew right away his technique was at fault:
  1. He had his wrist permanently extended (ie cöcked back) when he hit his forehand, so his wrist was being pushed beyond its natural limits at contact
  2. He had virtually no kinetic chain, and hit big forehands by pushing his "heavy but flexy" racquet to contact and then virtually arm-wrestling it to force a windshield-wiper finish
  3. He played with a 1HBH (of course) which was essentially a shot that involved him forcefully push with the back of his hand
  4. He got TE after two hours hitting with me even though he was using a full bed of natural gut in a flexy pro stock blade leaded up to something like 13.5 oz
Fair enough. Yeah actually I can agree the vast majority may be down to a technical flaw. I didn’t mean to sound like a dick btw. Just saying that I have seen many people on this board, and irl, using poly strings just fine even though their strokes aren’t the most technically sound. For example, my mate is top 50 in the country, and he uses full bed multi cause poly causes him golfers elbow.
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
I am fully aware of what paint jobs are. If you read my OP again, you'll notice that the frame I listed for Djokovic is not the frame that he is endorsing. Same with Nadal, who uses the first generation APD painted to look like the most recent one.

Wilson does not make money advertising a racquet's SW, but they do make money off the frame itself. They were hit with a class action lawsuit a while back for not selling the actual racquet Federer uses (back when he was using the 90). The good news is that when he changed to his 97, Wilson took it as an opportunity to put onto store shelves racquets that were as close to the real thing as possible. People who work for pro racquet customisation services (eg P1) have indicated in the past that Fed's frames are essentially the same RF97As sold commercially, but they are hand picked and customised to Federer's exact preferences. Those numbers have been shared in the past, and are the same numbers that I have quoted.

Literally no-one here thinks pros use racquets that they endorse. If you refuse to believe the guys who actually have Federer's match frames and measured them or the guys who have strung for Federer himself, I don't know what to tell you.

And why specifically Federer? Surely you must think Nadal and Djokovic's racquet specs must be fraudulent too.
Just one more thing , by curiosity i took a look at the link of your source for the Federer specs. What a joke...
You just don´t get it...
Anyway , all of this doesn´t matter...Everyone should play with what they feel better for themselves and not try to copy others...
Good luck...
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Just one more thing , by curiosity i took a look at the link of your source for the Federer specs. What a joke...
You just don´t get it...
Anyway , all of this doesn´t matter...Everyone should play with what they feel better for themselves and not try to copy others...
Good luck...
That's just one source I used after I checked all the others to make sure that they all matched up. I saw the auction on TW Europe with my own eyes and the 340 SW was listed there.

But it doesn't seem like you'd ever believe that 340 SW even if you were handed Federer's match frame by Federer himself.

But agreed that everyone should play with what they feel works for them. The purpose of this thread isn't about that though, merely explaining how their setups are tuned to how they play, and to explain how they may be responsible for certain limitations in their games.
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
That's just one source I used after I checked all the others to make sure that they all matched up. I saw the auction on TW Europe with my own eyes and the 340 SW was listed there.

But it doesn't seem like you'd ever believe that 340 SW even if you were handed Federer's match frame by Federer himself.

But agreed that everyone should play with what they feel works for them. The purpose of this thread isn't about that though, merely explaining how their setups are tuned to how they play, and to explain how they may be responsible for certain limitations in their games.
I like the purpose of your thread , and the way that the specs influence a style of play it´s very accurate , still that individual spec it´s wrong , no matter what you say or wan´t...
Besides that small ( huge ) flaw , the thread it´s a good one...
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
No. But won´t mention stringers that work for Federer , or name a racket that was for sale on TW and it´s supposed to be Federer´s. they coud easely remove the lead tape and put the racket for sale so the specs are similar to what´s on the shelf .
Could say a lot more things that make more sense than mentioning Federer personal stringers or anyone else that work for him.
Why don´t you contact a Wilson worker , so he can tell you about all the great new technology that they put in rackets every two years…
Why don´t you try , at home , put some lead on your racket at different places , give it a new paint job and call it a new advanced technology…
You can even name the racket by your own name , make millions selling it , and than people who tries it will say that it´s a great racket that reminds them of the Wilson Pro Staff that Federer uses...
Of course it will remind them , since it´s the same **** with diffrent weights and paint job...
 

sanister

Professional
@Rui Lopes man, first off I know English might not be your first language so I guess I can give you a break there but lose the damn attitude, man. Every person you have interacted with on this thread, you have been extremely rude to. The OP made an effort and did research to the best of his ability. Many others also corroborate his view. And yet here you are with your own BS conspiracy theory, mind you without even an iota of proof butting head with whoever doesn't agree with your own view.
they coud easely remove the lead tape and put the racket for sale so the specs are similar to what´s on the shelf
Have you even strung a racquet or changed a racquet's grommet? I have. Plenty of times. I have multiple kids who are collegiate tennis players and I have swapped out grommets a lot. The Roger Federer match used racquet up for sale at TW was measured by TW so that is how it's specs were corroborated. But more importantly, pray tell me how do you take lead off a racquet without removing the grommet? The channels become inflammed and you can't reinsert the same grommets or bumper guards back in if racquet has been used for match play. And the racquet for sale had clearly used bumperguard so it wasn't removed. And if you are going to tell me someone can use a pick or a tool or something to lift the bumperguard of a strung racquet to remove lead, that is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Right, risk damaging a racquet that is potentially so expensive and damaging it in the process? Doesn't make any sense.

I mean if you have followed Fed's racquet journey, his switch to 97 sq inch head and change in specs from his prior 90 is absolutely logical. And given the difference in twist weight of both his current frame and older frame, it can easily mean he dropped his swingweight. He was playtesting this RF97 for a long time and multiple sources verify that his newer specs are quite different than his older ones. Not sure why the hulabaloo over it.
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
I didn't know this. Do you have any way to back this up? Not that I doubt you but if you are correct I need to update my post with sources.
It was discussed before in one of the threads.
Plus, Ive had a few of his sticks over the past years, including the latest one that has the string channel like the latest Radicals...
 

polksio

Semi-Pro
I’m guessing you’re referring to Fed’s specs. To my knowledge, yes. Multiple sources including an auction on TWE of Fed’s racquet and users who have managed to get their hands on his match frame corroborate the 340 SW.
The auction racket you're talking about is the one you linked in the article or another one?
Can you source "users who have managed to get their hands on his match frame" that corroborate that number in you article as well please?
 

BilyNovak

New User
[QUOTE = "dr325i, publicação: 14211076, membro: 26167"]
Isso foi discutido anteriormente em um dos tópicos.
Além disso, tive algumas de suas varas nos últimos anos, incluindo a mais recente que possui o canal de cordas como os mais recentes Radicais ...
[/CITAR]
which racket is more similar to djokovic's racket?
 

12oz

Rookie
Props on the thread. Very insightful and hugely helpful for understanding the nuances of all the tennis racquets specs.

However, I have a question. Many people have referred to twistweight making the racquet feel ‘clubbier’.

So what inference can I take out from this. At same balance, sw and static weight a racquet is harder to swing or feels heavier/‘clubbier’How is this possible?

Is there a relationship between twistweight and sw or a perceived difference in sw.

For eg. When the red and black RF debuted I never felt as one with the racquet and continued to stick with PS90s until late 2016 when the all black RF97 ‘felt at home’.

I heard the reason for this is that the twistweight of the red and black RF was way higher than the all black. The reason why I never liked the red and black RF is because it felt too stiff and was strangely cumbersome to swing.
 

12oz

Rookie
For reference I still play with RF97 - all versions from 2016 onwards modified very similar to RF specs 365g/315mm/340sw but have lead tape at 3 and 9 like Djokovic as I prefer stability to outright power at 12.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
The auction racket you're talking about is the one you linked in the article or another one?
Can you source "users who have managed to get their hands on his match frame" that corroborate that number in you article as well please?

It was a match racquet (for AO 2018 F, if I remember correctly) that was auctioned on the Tennis Warehouse online store. I saw the listing myself and the specs obviously but the page has since disappeared so the thread I have linked with the specs listed is the closest I’ve got. It was linked as a source as that was how I saw the listing on TWE. If someone has a screenshot of the listing I’d use that but alas...

I’ll source the other threads once I have a bit of time. There are a few things I need to update.
 
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Bender

G.O.A.T.
Props on the thread. Very insightful and hugely helpful for understanding the nuances of all the tennis racquets specs.

However, I have a question. Many people have referred to twistweight making the racquet feel ‘clubbier’.

So what inference can I take out from this. At same balance, sw and static weight a racquet is harder to swing or feels heavier/‘clubbier’How is this possible?

Is there a relationship between twistweight and sw or a perceived difference in sw.

For eg. When the red and black RF debuted I never felt as one with the racquet and continued to stick with PS90s until late 2016 when the all black RF97 ‘felt at home’.

I heard the reason for this is that the twistweight of the red and black RF was way higher than the all black. The reason why I never liked the red and black RF is because it felt too stiff and was strangely cumbersome to swing.

SW and TW are very closely related. One is a measure of how easy / difficult a racquet is to swing from the end of the handle (SW), while the other is a measure of how easy / difficult a racquet is to spin around (TW).

I have also read that the TW in the first gen RF97A is higher than it is on the black one. Unfortunately I haven’t looked into it to confirm that with you but I’m sure there are other people more knowledgeable than me who can provide some input on this.

The reason why a racquet can have the same SW, STW and balance as another and yet feel heavier / clubbier is because lead at 12 translates to roughly 3 pts SW while lead at 3 & 9 translates to about 2 pts. This means for the same SW you will need to add a few more grams of lead at 3 & 9 than you would at 12.

For me, clubbiness of a racquet with high TW can be unnoticeable (or minimised at least) with traditional forehands as the movement of the racquet is pretty much linear until the followthrough.

Unfortunately for me I use a more modern WW forehand, racquet flip, lag and all so all the extra movement on the racquet really brings out the TW of the frame. It’s particularly noticeable when you go from the pat the dog position to the racquet lag, when the racquet has to go from facing downwards to facing the side fence in a split second. That extra weight at 3 & 9 makes that movement particularly sluggish.
 
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dr325i

G.O.A.T.
[QUOTE = "dr325i, publicação: 14211076, membro: 26167"]
Isso foi discutido anteriormente em um dos tópicos.
Além disso, tive algumas de suas varas nos últimos anos, incluindo a mais recente que possui o canal de cordas como os mais recentes Radicais ...
[/CITAR]
which racket is more similar to djokovic's racket?
The mold is similar to the LM Radical or Ti Radical, the layup is different, unique. The layup is similar to the FXP Radical MP, I’d say.
 

12oz

Rookie
P
SW and TW are very closely related. One is a measure of how easy / difficult a racquet is to swing from the end of the handle (SW), while the other is a measure of how easy / difficult a racquet is to spin around (TW).

I have also read that the TW in the first gen RF97A is higher than it is on the black one. Unfortunately I haven’t looked into it to confirm that with you but I’m sure there are other people more knowledgeable than me who can provide some input on this.

The reason why a racquet can have the same SW, STW and balance as another and yet feel heavier / clubbier is because lead at 12 translates to roughly 3 pts SW while lead at 3 & 9 translates to about 2 pts. This means for the same SW you will need to add a few more grams of lead at 3 & 9 than you would at 12.

Interesting, my takeout from your comments is that at same sw, weight, balance is that weight distribution throughout the racquet is critical in making sure you get the specs right for your own racquet. How you do that even with a specialist customiser I don’t know?

I suppose to get that right the racquets have to be identical coming out from the factory. Unfortunately with us rec players we have no chance of matching any of the pros specs or our own matched racquets unless matched in the factory.

For me personally, same weight, sw and balance I find that if racquet weight distribution is at 3 and 9 rather than polarised, I find weight at 3 and 9 lighter than at 12 and handle.
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
For reference I still play with RF97 - all versions from 2016 onwards modified very similar to RF specs 365g/315mm/340sw but have lead tape at 3 and 9 like Djokovic as I prefer stability to outright power at 12.
Don´t forgett that you can´t raise the TW of a racket withou raising the SW too. If you put lead only at 12 position , than you can raise the SW a lot without raising the TW.
So , a higher TW in a racket always mean a higher SW too...
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
P


Interesting, my takeout from your comments is that at same sw, weight, balance is that weight distribution throughout the racquet is critical in making sure you get the specs right for your own racquet. How you do that even with a specialist customiser I don’t know?

I suppose to get that right the racquets have to be identical coming out from the factory. Unfortunately with us rec players we have no chance of matching any of the pros specs or our own matched racquets unless matched in the factory.

For me personally, same weight, sw and balance I find that if racquet weight distribution is at 3 and 9 rather than polarised, I find weight at 3 and 9 lighter than at 12 and handle.
There are some non-specialist apps that you can use to measure SW and (presumably) TW. The problem is that there's still a fair bit of room for human error so the accuracy of those apps are only as good as the person taking the measurements (eg timing when measuring SW).

For my racquets, I ordered x3 3rd Gen Pure Strikes (16 x 19) and requested that all three are matched. IIRC I said I wanted them to be as if I took a perfectly on-spec frame and added lead tape only at 12 o'clock until I got to 340 SW. Naturally the ones I got had tape all over the top of the head (most had lead tape at 2 and 10 o'clock).

If you're putting the same amount of weight at 12 vs at 3 & 9, then of course the 3 & 9 setup will feel "lighter".
Don´t forgett that you can´t raise the TW of a racket withou raising the SW too. If you put lead only at 12 position , than you can raise the SW a lot without raising the TW.
So , a higher TW in a racket always mean a higher SW too...
Correct. SW doesn't ignore any lead tape that's added someplace other than 12 o'clock; vice versa with TW but to a lesser extent (it really depends how long the lead tape you apply at 12 is).

The moment you apply lead tape anywhere, there will be some sort of increase in SW. You can't reduce the perceived weight of the frame by adding more mass to it.

So if you accidentally buy a frame that's got a higher SW or TW than it's supposed to (ie off-spec), you're basically screwed.

If you need to customise a frame, you're better off getting a frame that's lighter than the official spec and work your way up from there.
 

Rui Lopes

Rookie
There are some non-specialist apps that you can use to measure SW and (presumably) TW. The problem is that there's still a fair bit of room for human error so the accuracy of those apps are only as good as the person taking the measurements (eg timing when measuring SW).

For my racquets, I ordered x3 3rd Gen Pure Strikes (16 x 19) and requested that all three are matched. IIRC I said I wanted them to be as if I took a perfectly on-spec frame and added lead tape only at 12 o'clock until I got to 340 SW. Naturally the ones I got had tape all over the top of the head (most had lead tape at 2 and 10 o'clock).

If you're putting the same amount of weight at 12 vs at 3 & 9, then of course the 3 & 9 setup will feel "lighter".

Correct. SW doesn't ignore any lead tape that's added someplace other than 12 o'clock; vice versa with TW but to a lesser extent (it really depends how long the lead tape you apply at 12 is).

The moment you apply lead tape anywhere, there will be some sort of increase in SW. You can't reduce the perceived weight of the frame by adding more mass to it.

So if you accidentally buy a frame that's got a higher SW or TW than it's supposed to (ie off-spec), you're basically screwed.

If you need to customise a frame, you're better off getting a frame that's lighter than the official spec and work your way up from there.
YEP.
I advise everyone that it´s not completely satisfied with their rackets to buy some lead tape and try with diferent placements to see what it does to a racket. Can make it really diferent . You will learn a lot about the technologies that the brands advertise to put on a racket and sale it again with a new paint job. it´s nothing but the same old frame , with weight on diferent places to make the `´new racke´t´ feel and play diferent. Everyone should try lead tape on their rackets to see what they can do to their game... You will learn a lot about your own strokes too...
 

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Strangely, I'm not as perplexed about the lack of gearheads on this thread (they would be on the equipment section of the boards). I'm surprised that there aren't more questions from GPPD users about my conclusions and whether their beliefs are compatible with the information provided (and vice versa).

I definitely agree that people must understand that a racquet is merely a tool--it doesn't magically make you play better, but you can customise it so that it suits your needs better.

perhaps it's because the GPPD transformed into GOAT debate, so it's largely irrelevant how the tool impacts something, it's my fav player is better than yours.
sadly.

otherwise, a great post.
 
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