Big 3 results if YEC was played on clay

InsideOut900

InsideOut900

Legend
Let's do a quick hypotethical ahead of this year's YEC. Also one that Nadal fans always wanted to hear :)

Who wins YEC since Big 3 first participation (2002) till now if it's on clay.

Listing the whole field and bolding the potential winner/winners

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002: Hewitt, Maraaaat Safin, Ferrero, Moya, Fed, Jiri Novak, Costa, Johansson

No explanation needed really.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003: Rodd, Ferrero, Fed, Coria, Agassi, Schüttler, Moya, Nalbandian

Was Fed good on clay it 2003? Not really, but perhaps his form on the day could get the job done.
It's between him, Ferrero and Coria, with Ferrerro the favourite
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2004: Fed, Rodd, Hewitt, Maraaaat, Moya, Coria, Henman, Gaudio

If it's damp clay like Hamburg, then Fed, else Coria
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2005: Fed, Agassi, Coria, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Gaudio, Nalbandian, Puerta

Probably Nalbandian or Davydenko, I would see healthy Fed winning it otherwise
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2006: Fed, Nadal, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Roddick, Robredo, Nalbandian, Blake

Fed would have his chances, but Nadal played well the whole tournament, so I gotta hand it to him by default
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2007: Federer, Nadal, Djoko, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer, Gonzo, Gasquet

One if Fedal. Nadal may have been a bit better in 2006, while Fed around the same
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2008: Fed, Djoko, Murray, Davydenko, Tsonga, JMDP, Simon, Stepanek

Djoko with a slim chance for Davydenko
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2009: Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray, Del Po, Davydenko, Verdasco, Soderling

Honestly, any of Fed, Djoko, Del Po, Davydenko, Soderling could have won it. Nadal was totally out of shape, so I don't think the surface makes the difference for it here.
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2010: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Sod, Murray, Berd, Ferrer, Rodd
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2011: Djoko, Nadal, Murray, Fed, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berd, Fish

Nadal a bit out of it, Fed in great shape
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2012: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Ferrer, Berd, Del Po, Tsonga, Tipsy

Clay would make the difference between Djoko and the rest huge here.
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2013: Ned, Djok, Ferrer, Del Po, Berd, Fed, Stan, Gasquet

Shoedown between Ned and Djoko in the final. Could go either way.
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2014: Djoko, Fed, Stan, Nishikori, Murray, Berdych, Raonic, Cilic

Djoko was in great shape and beats Stan in the final probably
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2015: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Stan, Nadal, Berd, Ferrer, Nishikori
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2016: Murray, Djoko, Stan, Raonic, Nishi, Monf, Cilic, Timmy

Djoko or Murray. Clay could work in Novak's favour here as he didn't look comfortable on the faster HC
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2017: Rafa, Fed, Zverev, Thiem, Cilic, Grigolo, Goffin, Sock

Zverev or Goffin I think. Maybe slight chance for Timmy
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2018: Djoko, Fed, Zverev, Anderson, Cilic, Timmy, Kei, Isner

Djoko or Zverev
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2019: Ned, Djoko, Fed, Med, Timmy, Tsitsi, Z, Berr

Ned or Timmy, probably Nadal.
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2020: Novak, Rafa, Timmy, Med, Zverev, Tsitsi, Ruble, Schwartz
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Summary:

4 titles for Novak in 08, 12, 14, 15.
4 potential titles in 09, 13, 16, 18

4 titles for Rafa in 2006, 2010, 2019, 2020
2 potential titles in 2007, 2013.
Outiside chances in 2009 and 2011 just because clay

1 titles for Fed in 2011
4 potential titles in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009

The switch-up would be nasty for Fed as he would have to face clay players before becoming a full fledged force on it himself (2002-2004) and Nadal afterwards (2006, 2007, 2010). After 2011, he likely doesn't hold up on clay anymore against the very best.
I can see him winning 2 titles, maybe 3 if outperforming Nadal that late in the season isn't a far fetched opinion.

Nadal would get a good share, would perhaps even make his body miraculously healthy for the YEC year after year if it's on clay. 4 or 5 titles reasonably.

Djokovic would benefit from potentially dangerous HC players being a lesser threat on clay, as well as Nadal not being a consistent showing at the YEC.
Plus he is a great clay player himself.
4 titles in the bag at the very least, but 6 titles is a real possibility, so perhaps even better off than he is now.

Additionally, players like Ferrero, Zverev, Davydenko could become multiple time winners on it.

Thoughts?
 
NatF

NatF

Bionic Poster
InsideOut900 said:
Let's do a quick hypotethical ahead of this year's YEC. Also one that Nadal fans always wanted to hear :)

Who wins YEC since Big 3 first participation (2002) till now if it's on clay.

Listing the whole field and bolding the potential winner/winners

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002: Hewitt, Maraaaat Safin, Ferrero, Moya, Fed, Jiri Novak, Costa, Johansson

No explanation needed really.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003: Rodd, Ferrero, Fed, Coria, Agassi, Schüttler, Moya, Nalbandian

Was Fed good on clay it 2003? Not really, but perhaps his form on the day could get the job done.
It's between him, Ferrero and Coria, with Ferrerro the favourite
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004: Fed, Rodd, Hewitt, Maraaaat, Moya, Coria, Henman, Gaudio

If it's damp clay like Hamburg, then Fed, else Coria
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005: Fed, Agassi, Coria, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Gaudio, Nalbandian, Puerta

Probably Nalbandian or Davydenko, I would see healthy Fed winning it otherwise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2006: Fed, Nadal, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Roddick, Robredo, Nalbandian, Blake

Fed would have his chances, but Nadal played well the whole tournament, so I gotta hand it to him by default
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2007: Federer, Nadal, Djoko, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer, Gonzo, Gasquet

One if Fedal. Nadal may have been a bit better in 2006, while Fed around the same
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2008: Fed, Djoko, Murray, Davydenko, Tsonga, JMDP, Simon, Stepanek

Djoko with a slim chance for Davydenko
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2009: Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray, Del Po, Davydenko, Verdasco, Soderling

Honestly, any of Fed, Djoko, Del Po, Davydenko, Soderling could have won it. Nadal was totally out of shape, so I don't think the surface makes the difference for it here.
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2010: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Sod, Murray, Berd, Ferrer, Rodd
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2011: Djoko, Nadal, Murray, Fed, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berd, Fish

Nadal a bit out of it, Fed in great shape
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2012: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Ferrer, Berd, Del Po, Tsonga, Tipsy

Clay would make the difference between Djoko and the rest huge here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2013: Ned, Djok, Ferrer, Del Po, Berd, Fed, Stan, Gasquet

Shoedown between Ned and Djoko in the final. Could go either way.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2014: Djoko, Fed, Stan, Nishikori, Murray, Berdych, Raonic, Cilic

Djoko was in great shape and beats Stan in the final probably
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2015: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Stan, Nadal, Berd, Ferrer, Nishikori
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2016: Murray, Djoko, Stan, Raonic, Nishi, Monf, Cilic, Timmy

Djoko or Murray. Clay could work in Novak's favour here as he didn't look comfortable on the faster HC
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017: Rafa, Fed, Zverev, Thiem, Cilic, Grigolo, Goffin, Sock

Zverev or Goffin I think. Maybe slight chance for Timmy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018: Djoko, Fed, Zverev, Anderson, Cilic, Timmy, Kei, Isner

Djoko or Zverev
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2019: Ned, Djoko, Fed, Med, Timmy, Tsitsi, Z, Berr

Ned or Timmy, probably Nadal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2020: Novak, Rafa, Timmy, Med, Zverev, Tsitsi, Ruble, Schwartz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:

4 titles for Novak in 08, 12, 14, 15.
4 potential titles in 09, 13, 16, 18

4 titles for Rafa in 2006, 2010, 2019, 2020
2 potential titles in 2007, 2013.
Outiside chances in 2009 and 2011 just because clay

1 titles for Fed in 2011
4 potential titles in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009

The switch-up would be nasty for Fed as he would have to face clay players before becoming a full fledged force on it himself (2002-2004) and Nadal afterwards (2006, 2007, 2010). After 2011, he likely doesn't hold up on clay anymore against the very best.
I can see him winning 2 titles, maybe 3 if outperforming Nadal that late in the season isn't a far fetched opinion.

Nadal would get a good share, would perhaps even make his body miraculously healthy for the YEC year after year if it's on clay. 4 or 5 titles reasonably.

Djokovic would benefit from potentially dangerous HC players being a lesser threat on clay, as well as Nadal not being a consistent showing at the YEC.
Plus he is a great clay player himself.
4 titles in the bag at the very least, but 6 titles is a real possibility, so perhaps even better off than he is now.

Additionally, players like Ferrero, Zverev, Davydenko could become multiple time winners on it.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Think Fed wins in 2004, Coria was coming back from a shoulder injury and wouldn't be good enough to stop Fed. Otherwise mostly agree, some of Nadal's stinkers like 2011 might have been very different on clay but he's also not got the same energy intensity at the end of the season so could go either way.
 
Hitman

Hitman

Bionic Poster
If this was the case, Nadal would be looking to make the same numbers here that he does at RG. He would peak hard for this one, knowing he is a lock for the semis each time, as no chance he loses two matches in RR play on clay.
 
InsideOut900

InsideOut900

Legend
Hitman said:
If this was the case, Nadal would be looking to make the same numbers here that he does at RG. He would peak hard for this one, knowing he is a lock for the semis each time, as no chance he loses two matches in RR play on clay.
Click to expand...
So he would come back from the dead in 2005, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018 just to play it, right? :D
 
Swingmaster

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
Hitman said:
Absolutely. There is no question in my mind about this. He wouldn't be dead at all, he will be looking to peak for it year in year out if it was on clay.
Click to expand...
But if he was looking to peak for it, many other tournaments would suffer. He would have many more clays and many fewer hards. His legacy might be worse, since he's already far and away the best clay man. Guys like Fed would've phoned it in. Peaked somewhere else.
 
K

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
I’m not going to get into the numbers but I do completely agree with the conclusion that the timing of the YEC is genuinely just as big of a factor in Nadal’s lack of success as the surface being indoor hard.
 
Hitman

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Swingmaster said:
But if he was looking to peak for it, many other tournaments would suffer. He would have many more clays and many fewer hards. His legacy might be worse, since he's already far and away the best clay man.
Click to expand...

It is easy to think of legacies now when you can look back, but during the actual heat of the season, Nadal would be looking to pick up points so he can become number one, and WTF would give him that, plus, why would he want someone else to dominate the second biggest clay event on the tour, that would bring up questions on his own clay legacy. He is considered the clay GOAT because he shut everyone out on the big clay events, he would not be letting WTF slip away.
 
Swingmaster

Swingmaster

Hall of Fame
Hitman said:
It is easy to think of legacies now when you can look back, but during the actual heat of the season, Nadal would be looking to pick up points so he can become number one, and WTF would give him that, plus, why would he want someone else to dominate the second biggest clay event on the tour, that would bring up questions on his own clay legacy. He is considered the clay GOAT because he shut everyone out on the big clay events, he would not be letting WTF slip away.
Click to expand...
I'm sure he would've gone after them. But say, hypothetically, there was another little clay court season after the US Open (which there'd kind of have to be since you can't just have a clay WTF out of nowhere), would Nadal have kind of made his whole career more clay focused? Skip the US Open and completely dominate his beloved surface? Who knows, but it's interesting to speculate. Like, what if the Australian season were grass? Would Federer have skipped most of the clay season a long time ago? Would that have been better for his legacy. Just concede the clay to Nadal instead of painfully going after it?
 
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Hitman

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Swingmaster said:
I'm sure he would've gone after them. But say, hypothetically, there was another little clay court season after the US Open (which there'd kind of have to be since you can't just have a clay WTF out of nowhere), would Nadal have kind of made his whole career more clay focused? Skip the US Open and completely dominate his beloved surface? Who knows, but it's interesting to speculate. Like, what if the Australian season were grass? Would Federer have skipped most of the clay season a long time ago? Would that have been better for his legacy. Just concede the clay to Nadal instead of painfully going after it?
Click to expand...

I'll tell you what I think would have happened, if he knew the biggest title outside of RG was now at the end of the season, he wouldn't go full out during the spring clay season. One of the reasons why he is so burnt out is, because he needs to get his points during a two month window, if he knew he could pick up a lot of those points towards the end of the season, he would have adjusted his schedule. But I have no doubt, WTF becomes a massive focal point of his season after RG. It's the bragging rights that come with it, only the best top 8 play there, so if he is the GOAT of clay or the king of clay, how can he possibly let anyone else dispute that by winning all those WTFs?

Nadal made the choice in 2005 to make his game more clay focused, so, with that in mind, what I say above would have very likely happened.
 
TearTheRoofOff

TearTheRoofOff

G.O.A.T.
All I'd wager is that whatever injuries that have removed Nadal from contention at the end of the season over the years would have magically disappeared.
 
M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
LMFAO Nadal would be winning WAY, way more often than you have him winning. It is freaking clay. He might be a bit less dominant vs Federer and Djokovic compared to RG but you thinking he loses most years he plays is absurd. Nadal on clay is always winning most of the time he is playing period. And for sure winning the vast majority of the time he plays against Federer and Djokovic period. Your thinking even matches he might lose in straightforward straight sets to Federer or Djokovic likely is still a loss on clay is completely wrong. Especialy Federer who has barely any wins over Nadal on clay at all. Now Djokovic despite also a lopsided losing record vs Nadal on clay, has quite a few more clay wins than Federer ( a lot of that being timing to play a weaker Nadal in his best years than Federer got in his, but that would still apply to the timing in this hypothetical anyway) but hardly any of those wins are the really big event, which WTF is still more than a regular Masters, so that is something to keep in mind.

While I am not familiar with you I am guessing you are in fact a Nadal fan who is trying to make the case he has not won the WTF only due to the timing of the year, and that is has nothing to do with surface or any weakness of his besides being burnt out by years end with his playing style and history of injuries. And are trying to indirectly show this by making it look like "look guys he even loses it most years, and doesn't win it even more than Federer or Djokovic, even on clay."
 
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InsideOut900

InsideOut900

Legend
martinezownsclay said:
LMFAO Nadal would be winning WAY, way more often than you have him winning. It is freaking clay. He might be a bit less dominant vs Federer and Djokovic compared to RG but you thinking he loses most years he plays is absurd. Nadal on clay is always winning most of the time he is playing period. And for sure winning the vast majority of the time he plays against Federer and Djokovic period. Your thinking even matches he might lose in straightforward straight sets to Federer or Djokovic likely is still a loss on clay is completely wrong. Especialy Federer who has barely any wins over Nadal on clay at all. Now Djokovic despite also a lopsided losing record vs Nadal on clay, has quite a few more clay wins than Federer ( a lot of that being timing to play a weaker Nadal in his best years than Federer got in his, but that would still apply to the timing in this hypothetical anyway) but hardly any of those wins are the really big event, which WTF is still more than a regular Masters, so that is something to keep in mind.
Click to expand...
Well, if @Hitman and @TearTheRoofOff are right and Nadal miraculously heals his wounds come November, then I agree.
However, being clay doesn't default to an autowin for Nadal because he rarely performs at his expected level this late in the season. It would make win quite a few of them compared to a straight 0 titles, though.

martinezownsclay said:
While I am not familiar with you I am guessing you are in fact a Nadal fan who is trying to make the case he has not won the WTF only due to the timing of the year, and that is has nothing to do with surface or any weakness of his besides being burnt out by years end with his playing style and history of injuries. And are trying to indirectly show this by making it look like "look guys he even loses it most years, and doesn't win it even more than Federer or Djokovic, even on clay."
Click to expand...
Maybe I am some Nadal fan, maybe I am trying to pump Novak by saying he is the best at YEC since he would have same results even in different conditions.
Maybe I just hate Fed and I want to make hiim look bad. How knows these days, am I right? :D
 
ForehandRF

ForehandRF

Legend
Clay already has a lot of tournaments plus one slam so indoor hardcourts deserved a big event.It's good that the YEC is played on indoor hardcourts, the only other common sense surface would have been carpet, but carpet is not used anymore on the tour :D
 
metsman

metsman

Talk Tennis Guru
It would pretty much have to be indoor clay, damper an faster (on which Federer may well be the best ever), and combine that with Rolfe succumbing to his noble ailments due to the end of year, Federer still has way more YEC titles. Would be like Hamburg except even more favorable to Fed.
 
D

Daniel Andrade

Hall of Fame
TearTheRoofOff said:
Nadal is a coward, which is quite amusing given the antithetical consensus.
Click to expand...
Thailand-salt-tax-Firms-failing-to-reformulate-risk-increased-costs-as-2021-implementation-expected.jpg
 
BGod

BGod

G.O.A.T.
I think you can look at the years he did well at the WTF and just automatically lock those in as he was healthy enough on indoor hard, so he would have destroyed on clay.

06-07, 10, 13, 15, 20 for 6 guaranteed.

Then I would look at the years where he competed at the Paris Masters and then at the AO and what his form was.

2008-09 2017, 2019 therefore become likely.

We're at 10 and left with the following plausible of 2011. Now let's just go ahead and give Fed 2005 & 2011. That leaves Novak with 12, 14, 16, 18 and 2021. I can see Wawrinka winning 14 or 16, maybe both. Nadal winning 5 from 2006-2010 though is the juiciest part of this.

But I agree a 3 year rotation of surfaces would be the best although indoor grass isn't really much of a thing outside small clubs. I think it would make more sense to alter between slow and fast hard because carpet ain't coming back (though that would be bliss).
 
Bartelby

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The thread unintentionally exposes the fact that Nadal was simply more of a one-track pony than the other two. Hardcourt is the de facto norm these days, so a hypothetical win is all Nadal will be getting at the YEC.
 
The Big Foe fan

The Big Foe fan

Hall of Fame
InsideOut900 said:
Let's do a quick hypotethical ahead of this year's YEC. Also one that Nadal fans always wanted to hear :)

Who wins YEC since Big 3 first participation (2002) till now if it's on clay.

Listing the whole field and bolding the potential winner/winners

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002: Hewitt, Maraaaat Safin, Ferrero, Moya, Fed, Jiri Novak, Costa, Johansson

No explanation needed really.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003: Rodd, Ferrero, Fed, Coria, Agassi, Schüttler, Moya, Nalbandian

Was Fed good on clay it 2003? Not really, but perhaps his form on the day could get the job done.
It's between him, Ferrero and Coria, with Ferrerro the favourite
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004: Fed, Rodd, Hewitt, Maraaaat, Moya, Coria, Henman, Gaudio

If it's damp clay like Hamburg, then Fed, else Coria
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2005: Fed, Agassi, Coria, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Gaudio, Nalbandian, Puerta

Probably Nalbandian or Davydenko, I would see healthy Fed winning it otherwise
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2006: Fed, Nadal, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Roddick, Robredo, Nalbandian, Blake

Fed would have his chances, but Nadal played well the whole tournament, so I gotta hand it to him by default
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2007: Federer, Nadal, Djoko, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer, Gonzo, Gasquet

One if Fedal. Nadal may have been a bit better in 2006, while Fed around the same
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2008: Fed, Djoko, Murray, Davydenko, Tsonga, JMDP, Simon, Stepanek

Djoko with a slim chance for Davydenko
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2009: Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray, Del Po, Davydenko, Verdasco, Soderling

Honestly, any of Fed, Djoko, Del Po, Davydenko, Soderling could have won it. Nadal was totally out of shape, so I don't think the surface makes the difference for it here.
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2010: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Sod, Murray, Berd, Ferrer, Rodd
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2011: Djoko, Nadal, Murray, Fed, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berd, Fish

Nadal a bit out of it, Fed in great shape
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2012: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Ferrer, Berd, Del Po, Tsonga, Tipsy

Clay would make the difference between Djoko and the rest huge here.
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2013: Ned, Djok, Ferrer, Del Po, Berd, Fed, Stan, Gasquet

Shoedown between Ned and Djoko in the final. Could go either way.
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2014: Djoko, Fed, Stan, Nishikori, Murray, Berdych, Raonic, Cilic

Djoko was in great shape and beats Stan in the final probably
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2015: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Stan, Nadal, Berd, Ferrer, Nishikori
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2016: Murray, Djoko, Stan, Raonic, Nishi, Monf, Cilic, Timmy

Djoko or Murray. Clay could work in Novak's favour here as he didn't look comfortable on the faster HC
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2017: Rafa, Fed, Zverev, Thiem, Cilic, Grigolo, Goffin, Sock

Zverev or Goffin I think. Maybe slight chance for Timmy
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2018: Djoko, Fed, Zverev, Anderson, Cilic, Timmy, Kei, Isner

Djoko or Zverev
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2019: Ned, Djoko, Fed, Med, Timmy, Tsitsi, Z, Berr

Ned or Timmy, probably Nadal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2020: Novak, Rafa, Timmy, Med, Zverev, Tsitsi, Ruble, Schwartz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:

4 titles for Novak in 08, 12, 14, 15.
4 potential titles in 09, 13, 16, 18

4 titles for Rafa in 2006, 2010, 2019, 2020
2 potential titles in 2007, 2013.
Outiside chances in 2009 and 2011 just because clay

1 titles for Fed in 2011
4 potential titles in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009

The switch-up would be nasty for Fed as he would have to face clay players before becoming a full fledged force on it himself (2002-2004) and Nadal afterwards (2006, 2007, 2010). After 2011, he likely doesn't hold up on clay anymore against the very best.
I can see him winning 2 titles, maybe 3 if outperforming Nadal that late in the season isn't a far fetched opinion.

Nadal would get a good share, would perhaps even make his body miraculously healthy for the YEC year after year if it's on clay. 4 or 5 titles reasonably.

Djokovic would benefit from potentially dangerous HC players being a lesser threat on clay, as well as Nadal not being a consistent showing at the YEC.
Plus he is a great clay player himself.
4 titles in the bag at the very least, but 6 titles is a real possibility, so perhaps even better off than he is now.

Additionally, players like Ferrero, Zverev, Davydenko could become multiple time winners on it.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
If its clay, nadal would come out of deathbed to play it, lol..
The guy schedules his injuries outside the clay season.
 
The Big Foe fan

The Big Foe fan

Hall of Fame
Hitman said:
If this was the case, Nadal would be looking to make the same numbers here that he does at RG. He would peak hard for this one, knowing he is a lock for the semis each time, as no chance he loses two matches in RR play on clay.
Click to expand...
How many RGs for nadal if Frenchies decided to play on grass?
 
M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
BGod said:
I think you can look at the years he did well at the WTF and just automatically lock those in as he was healthy enough on indoor hard, so he would have destroyed on clay.

06-07, 10, 13, 15, 20 for 6 guaranteed.

Then I would look at the years where he competed at the Paris Masters and then at the AO and what his form was.

2008-09 2017, 2019 therefore become likely.

We're at 10 and left with the following plausible of 2011. Now let's just go ahead and give Fed 2005 & 2011. That leaves Novak with 12, 14, 16, 18 and 2021. I can see Wawrinka winning 14 or 16, maybe both. Nadal winning 5 from 2006-2010 though is the juiciest part of this.

But I agree a 3 year rotation of surfaces would be the best although indoor grass isn't really much of a thing outside small clubs. I think it would make more sense to alter between slow and fast hard because carpet ain't coming back (though that would be bliss).
Click to expand...

That is a more reasonable assessment. I think the idea Nadal would have only 4, equal with Djokovic and Federer on CLAY as OP had it, is simply inconceivable by a long ways. There is no semi significant clay event in existence someone else is close to Nadal's equal over the years, so I can't imagine the WTF would be any different.

I agree he would be slightly less dominant compared to RG so your pretty is about right.

Although I do agree with metsman if you had the very specific clay conditions he/she speaks of Federer could do very well overall, even against Nadal. Particularly as Nadal is battling combat fatigue, more than others, at that point in the season anyway. Being a Federer vs Nadal situation though, and the psychology of their matches for years, Federer quite possibly would sometimes lose his nerve from in a winning situation though. Particularly knowing it is clay (any sort of clay) underneath them.
 
ForehandRF

ForehandRF

Legend
metsman said:
It would pretty much have to be indoor clay, damper an faster (on which Federer may well be the best ever), and combine that with Rolfe succumbing to his noble ailments due to the end of year, Federer still has way more YEC titles. Would be like Hamburg except even more favorable to Fed.
Click to expand...
This.I am surprised that no one else pointed this out 8-B
 
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Third Serve

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
metsman said:
It would pretty much have to be indoor clay, damper an faster (on which Federer may well be the best ever), and combine that with Rolfe succumbing to his noble ailments due to the end of year, Federer still has way more YEC titles. Would be like Hamburg except even more favorable to Fed.
Click to expand...
Yeah if it’s in those conditions, Fed will really like playing there for sure.
 
RS

RS

Bionic Poster
InsideOut900 said:
Let's do a quick hypotethical ahead of this year's YEC. Also one that Nadal fans always wanted to hear :)

Who wins YEC since Big 3 first participation (2002) till now if it's on clay.

Listing the whole field and bolding the potential winner/winners

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002: Hewitt, Maraaaat Safin, Ferrero, Moya, Fed, Jiri Novak, Costa, Johansson

No explanation needed really.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003: Rodd, Ferrero, Fed, Coria, Agassi, Schüttler, Moya, Nalbandian

Was Fed good on clay it 2003? Not really, but perhaps his form on the day could get the job done.
It's between him, Ferrero and Coria, with Ferrerro the favourite
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004: Fed, Rodd, Hewitt, Maraaaat, Moya, Coria, Henman, Gaudio

If it's damp clay like Hamburg, then Fed, else Coria
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005: Fed, Agassi, Coria, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Gaudio, Nalbandian, Puerta

Probably Nalbandian or Davydenko, I would see healthy Fed winning it otherwise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2006: Fed, Nadal, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Roddick, Robredo, Nalbandian, Blake

Fed would have his chances, but Nadal played well the whole tournament, so I gotta hand it to him by default
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2007: Federer, Nadal, Djoko, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer, Gonzo, Gasquet

One if Fedal. Nadal may have been a bit better in 2006, while Fed around the same
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2008: Fed, Djoko, Murray, Davydenko, Tsonga, JMDP, Simon, Stepanek

Djoko with a slim chance for Davydenko
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2009: Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray, Del Po, Davydenko, Verdasco, Soderling

Honestly, any of Fed, Djoko, Del Po, Davydenko, Soderling could have won it. Nadal was totally out of shape, so I don't think the surface makes the difference for it here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2010: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Sod, Murray, Berd, Ferrer, Rodd
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011: Djoko, Nadal, Murray, Fed, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berd, Fish

Nadal a bit out of it, Fed in great shape
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Ferrer, Berd, Del Po, Tsonga, Tipsy

Clay would make the difference between Djoko and the rest huge here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2013: Ned, Djok, Ferrer, Del Po, Berd, Fed, Stan, Gasquet

Shoedown between Ned and Djoko in the final. Could go either way.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2014: Djoko, Fed, Stan, Nishikori, Murray, Berdych, Raonic, Cilic

Djoko was in great shape and beats Stan in the final probably
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2015: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Stan, Nadal, Berd, Ferrer, Nishikori
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2016: Murray, Djoko, Stan, Raonic, Nishi, Monf, Cilic, Timmy

Djoko or Murray. Clay could work in Novak's favour here as he didn't look comfortable on the faster HC
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017: Rafa, Fed, Zverev, Thiem, Cilic, Grigolo, Goffin, Sock

Zverev or Goffin I think. Maybe slight chance for Timmy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018: Djoko, Fed, Zverev, Anderson, Cilic, Timmy, Kei, Isner

Djoko or Zverev
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2019: Ned, Djoko, Fed, Med, Timmy, Tsitsi, Z, Berr

Ned or Timmy, probably Nadal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2020: Novak, Rafa, Timmy, Med, Zverev, Tsitsi, Ruble, Schwartz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:

4 titles for Novak in 08, 12, 14, 15.
4 potential titles in 09, 13, 16, 18

4 titles for Rafa in 2006, 2010, 2019, 2020
2 potential titles in 2007, 2013.
Outiside chances in 2009 and 2011 just because clay

1 titles for Fed in 2011
4 potential titles in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009

The switch-up would be nasty for Fed as he would have to face clay players before becoming a full fledged force on it himself (2002-2004) and Nadal afterwards (2006, 2007, 2010). After 2011, he likely doesn't hold up on clay anymore against the very best.
I can see him winning 2 titles, maybe 3 if outperforming Nadal that late in the season isn't a far fetched opinion.

Nadal would get a good share, would perhaps even make his body miraculously healthy for the YEC year after year if it's on clay. 4 or 5 titles reasonably.

Djokovic would benefit from potentially dangerous HC players being a lesser threat on clay, as well as Nadal not being a consistent showing at the YEC.
Plus he is a great clay player himself.
4 titles in the bag at the very least, but 6 titles is a real possibility, so perhaps even better off than he is now.

Additionally, players like Ferrero, Zverev, Davydenko could become multiple time winners on it.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
2nd clay slam?

:whistle:
 
G

Gt86

Professional
InsideOut900 said:
Let's do a quick hypotethical ahead of this year's YEC. Also one that Nadal fans always wanted to hear :)

Who wins YEC since Big 3 first participation (2002) till now if it's on clay.

Listing the whole field and bolding the potential winner/winners

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002: Hewitt, Maraaaat Safin, Ferrero, Moya, Fed, Jiri Novak, Costa, Johansson

No explanation needed really.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003: Rodd, Ferrero, Fed, Coria, Agassi, Schüttler, Moya, Nalbandian

Was Fed good on clay it 2003? Not really, but perhaps his form on the day could get the job done.
It's between him, Ferrero and Coria, with Ferrerro the favourite
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004: Fed, Rodd, Hewitt, Maraaaat, Moya, Coria, Henman, Gaudio

If it's damp clay like Hamburg, then Fed, else Coria
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2005: Fed, Agassi, Coria, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Gaudio, Nalbandian, Puerta

Probably Nalbandian or Davydenko, I would see healthy Fed winning it otherwise
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2006: Fed, Nadal, Davydenko, Ljubicic, Roddick, Robredo, Nalbandian, Blake

Fed would have his chances, but Nadal played well the whole tournament, so I gotta hand it to him by default
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2007: Federer, Nadal, Djoko, Davydenko, Roddick, Ferrer, Gonzo, Gasquet

One if Fedal. Nadal may have been a bit better in 2006, while Fed around the same
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2008: Fed, Djoko, Murray, Davydenko, Tsonga, JMDP, Simon, Stepanek

Djoko with a slim chance for Davydenko
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2009: Fed, Nadal, Djoko, Murray, Del Po, Davydenko, Verdasco, Soderling

Honestly, any of Fed, Djoko, Del Po, Davydenko, Soderling could have won it. Nadal was totally out of shape, so I don't think the surface makes the difference for it here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2010: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Sod, Murray, Berd, Ferrer, Rodd
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2011: Djoko, Nadal, Murray, Fed, Ferrer, Tsonga, Berd, Fish

Nadal a bit out of it, Fed in great shape
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Ferrer, Berd, Del Po, Tsonga, Tipsy

Clay would make the difference between Djoko and the rest huge here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2013: Ned, Djok, Ferrer, Del Po, Berd, Fed, Stan, Gasquet

Shoedown between Ned and Djoko in the final. Could go either way.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2014: Djoko, Fed, Stan, Nishikori, Murray, Berdych, Raonic, Cilic

Djoko was in great shape and beats Stan in the final probably
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2015: Djoko, Fed, Murray, Stan, Nadal, Berd, Ferrer, Nishikori
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2016: Murray, Djoko, Stan, Raonic, Nishi, Monf, Cilic, Timmy

Djoko or Murray. Clay could work in Novak's favour here as he didn't look comfortable on the faster HC
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2017: Rafa, Fed, Zverev, Thiem, Cilic, Grigolo, Goffin, Sock

Zverev or Goffin I think. Maybe slight chance for Timmy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2018: Djoko, Fed, Zverev, Anderson, Cilic, Timmy, Kei, Isner

Djoko or Zverev
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2019: Ned, Djoko, Fed, Med, Timmy, Tsitsi, Z, Berr

Ned or Timmy, probably Nadal.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2020: Novak, Rafa, Timmy, Med, Zverev, Tsitsi, Ruble, Schwartz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary:

4 titles for Novak in 08, 12, 14, 15.
4 potential titles in 09, 13, 16, 18

4 titles for Rafa in 2006, 2010, 2019, 2020
2 potential titles in 2007, 2013.
Outiside chances in 2009 and 2011 just because clay

1 titles for Fed in 2011
4 potential titles in 2004, 2006, 2007, 2009

The switch-up would be nasty for Fed as he would have to face clay players before becoming a full fledged force on it himself (2002-2004) and Nadal afterwards (2006, 2007, 2010). After 2011, he likely doesn't hold up on clay anymore against the very best.
I can see him winning 2 titles, maybe 3 if outperforming Nadal that late in the season isn't a far fetched opinion.

Nadal would get a good share, would perhaps even make his body miraculously healthy for the YEC year after year if it's on clay. 4 or 5 titles reasonably.

Djokovic would benefit from potentially dangerous HC players being a lesser threat on clay, as well as Nadal not being a consistent showing at the YEC.
Plus he is a great clay player himself.
4 titles in the bag at the very least, but 6 titles is a real possibility, so perhaps even better off than he is now.

Additionally, players like Ferrero, Zverev, Davydenko could become multiple time winners on it.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Who cares? Meaningless event when players like Dimitrov and Davydenko have won it. Just a money spinner for the AtP nothing more. That's why it is a round Robin format
 
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