Big 5 maiden titles in all categories stats

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Being a stats nerd and getting a bit bored now waiting for the 2024 season to start , it occurred to me that Murray is the only 1 of the Big 5 (all current or very recent multiple Slam champions) who had to win his maiden titles in the final of ALL categories of tournaments against an existing Slam champion and usually a multiple Slam champion. Bolded figures represent a Slam champion.

Murray:

Slams: maiden title at 2012 US Open vs Djokovic
WTFs: maiden title at 2016 London vs Djokovic.
Olympics: maiden title at 2012 Wimbledon vs Federer.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2008 Cincinnati vs Djokovic.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2009 Rotterdam vs Nadal.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 San José vs Hewitt.

Federer:

Slams: maiden title at 2003 Wimbledon vs Philippoussis
WTFs: maiden title at 2003 Houston vs Agassi.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2002 Hamburg vs Safin.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2002 Vienna vs (Jiri) Novak.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2001 Milan vs Boutter.

Nadal:

Slams: maiden title at 2005 Roland Garros vs Puerta.
Olympics: maiden title at 2008 Beijing vs Gonzalez.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2005 Monte Carlo vs Coria.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2005 Acapulco vs Montanes.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2004 Sopot vs Acasuso.

Djokovic:

Slams: maiden title at 2008 Australian Open vs Tsonga.
WTFs: maiden title at 2008 Shanghai vs Davydenko.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2007 Miami vs Canas.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2007 Vienna vs Wawrinka (not yet a Slam champion).
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 Amersfoort vs Massu.

Wawrinka:

Slams: maiden title at 2014 Australian Open vs Nadal.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2014 Monte Carlo vs Federer.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2015 Rotterdam vs Berdych.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 Umag vs Djokovic (not yet a Slam champion who retired from the match).


Don't anybody ever tell me Murray had it easy when fighting his way up the ranks! :cool:
 
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This is debunked a bunch of times.

Djokovic faced Federer in USO 11 Nadal in USO 11
He also faced Federer in USO 2007/2008/2009/2010. And Nadal in 2010.

Djokovic faced Federer in AO 08 semis and beat him to win the title at age 20.

Djokovic beat Nadal in Wimby 11 who was 2 time champion.

I think too much is made of the finalist ONLY and skipping semi and quarter finalist if the draws are imbalanced.

Nadal's best competition in RG 22 was Djokovic. Not Ruud.
 
Yesterday I saw the AO 2011 final again. Despite Andy Murray having better return than Federer, he was beaten much more comfortable by Djokovic.

I think Djokovic broke him 8 times or so. And he certainly couldn't do so vs fed.

Some of it was Djokovic's own good game but some was also Murray's attitude. He tended to give up too easily.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
This is debunked a bunch of times.

Djokovic faced Federer in USO 11 Nadal in USO 11
He also faced Federer in USO 2007/2008/2009/2010. And Nadal in 2010.

Djokovic faced Federer in AO 08 semis and beat him to win the title at age 20.

Djokovic beat Nadal in Wimby 11 who was 2 time champion.

I think too much is made of the finalist ONLY and skipping semi and quarter finalist if the draws are imbalanced.

Nadal's best competition in RG 22 was Djokovic. Not Ruud.
Click to expand...

I understand and respect that many of these guys faced the big guns in semis etc. but I contend that finals are special and what may have occurred en route to them doesn't necessarily mean the same thing would have occurred in the final.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Yesterday I saw the AO 2011 final again. Despite Andy Murray having better return than Federer, he was beaten much more comfortable by Djokovic.

I think Djokovic broke him 8 times or so. And he certainly couldn't do so vs fed.

Some of it was Djokovic's own good game but some was also Murray's attitude. He tended to give up too easily.
Click to expand...

2011 saw the sudden and shocking rise of Djokovic 2.0. He took Murray by surprise as he did to Nadal, Fed and most of his opponents that year. I'm more disappointed that Murray let 2013 AO go. He had real chances there but got distracted too easily (falling feathers etc.).
 
Mainad said:
I understand and respect that many of these guys faced the big guns in semis etc. but I contend that finals are special and what may have occurred en route to them doesn't necessarily mean the same thing would have occurred in the final.
Click to expand...


Then next question is how much more special?

Andy practically couldn't beat his opponent in first 3 finals.

In USO 2008 he was broken 7 times
In AO 2010 he was beaten very convincingly
In AO 2011 he was broken 7 times.

He was 0-9 in sets and only 1 set even went to a tiebreak.

So was Andy Murray going to beat the same guys if it was before final?
Andy Murray didn't beat Federer in all but 1 time in slams.
Andy Murray didn't beat Djokovic in all but 2 time in slams.


With ATP finals, I think he didn't make it to the final in 8 attempts from 2008 to 2015. In his first try he won the title. But Nadal Djokovic Federer all beat him regularly here.
 
Mainad said:
2011 saw the sudden and shocking rise of Djokovic 2.0. He took Murray by surprise as he did to Nadal, Fed and most of his opponents that year. I'm more disappointed that Murray let 2013 AO go. He had real chances there but got distracted too easily (falling feathers etc.).
Click to expand...


2011 may have been the shock for fedal but Djokovic was close to them before as well.

He had already beaten Federer 2 times in slam. And in 2011 he played 2 very close matches, could have lost 2/3.
He had never beaten Nadal but they played majorly at RG. Outside RG he gave tougher fight to Nadal than Andy did in first 3 slam finals.
 
Murray is the only player who could have actually won 10+ slams in another era!

Also worth noting how late Stan got his results and how much impact he had in those 3-4 years.
 
Andy is combined 5-20 vs big 3 in slams. One of the wins is after Nadal retired mid match.

While Nadal, the worst of the big 3 indoors and grass, has 3-0 in Wimbledon vs Murray and 2-0 in ATP finals vs Murray.

Murray is just not near big 3 level so any round he met them it was always going to be hard. He is 7 days older to Djokovic. Imagine.
 
Mainad said:
Being a stats nerd and getting a bit bored now waiting for the 2024 season to start , it occurred to me that Murray is the only 1 of the Big 5 (all current or very recent multiple Slam champions) who had to win his maiden titles in all categories of tournaments against an existing Slam champion and usually a multiple Slam champion. Bolded figures represent a Slam champion.

Murray:

Slams: maiden title at 2012 US Open vs Djokovic
WTFs: maiden title at 2016 London vs Djokovic.
Olympics: maiden title at 2016 Wimbledon vs Federer.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2008 Cincinnati vs Djokovic.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2009 Rotterdam vs Nadal.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 San José vs Hewitt.

Federer:

Slams: maiden title at 2003 Wimbledon vs Philippoussis
WTFs: maiden title at 2003 Houston vs Agassi.
Masters 1000: maiden title vs Safin.
ATP500S: maiden title at 2002 Vienna vs (Jiri) Novak.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2001 Milan vs Boutter.

Nadal:

Slams: maiden title at 2005 Roland Garros vs Puerta.
Olympics: maiden title at 2008 Beijing vs Gonzalez.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2005 Monte Carlo vs Coria.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2005 Acapulco vs Montanes.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2004 Sopot va Acasuso.

Djokovic:

Slams: maiden title at 2008 Australian Open vs Tsonga.
WTFs: maiden title at 2008 Shanghai vs Davydenko.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2007 Miami vs Canas.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2007 Vienna vs Wawrinka (not yet a Slam champion).
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 Amersfoort vs Massu.

Wawrinka:

Slams: maiden title at 2014 Australian Open vs Nadal.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2014 Monte Carlo vs Federer.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2015 Rotterdam vs Berdych.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 Umag vs Djokovic (not yet a Slam champion who retired from the match).


Don't anybody ever tell me Murray had it easy when fighting his way up the ranks! :cool:
Click to expand...
This is interesting but doesn’t consider if one had to beat the other member of the Big 3 in an earlier round of the same tournament? But agree man Murray was tortured by these 3 guys LOL. He could have won lot more.
 
junior74 said:
Murray is the only player who could have actually won 10+ slams in another era!

Also worth noting how late Stan got his results and how much impact he had in those 3-4 years.
Click to expand...

How would Murray win 10 slams in any era. He is consistent, not dominant. The difference is clearly visible in 2015 year end ranking.

Murray ended the year at number 2 but everybody thought Federer was the real number 2.

Murray 1-8 vs combined fedkovic in 2015.
Federer dominant in 5-5 vs djorray.

And this is Federer between age 33/34.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
How would Murray win 10 slams in any era. He is consistent, not dominant. The difference is clearly visible in 2015 year end ranking.

Murray ended the year at number 2 but everybody thought Federer was the real number 2.

Murray 1-8 vs combined fedkovic in 2015.
Federer dominant in 5-5 vs djorray.

And this is Federer between age 33/34.
Click to expand...

If Thiem and Medvedev could, Murray could :cool:
 
Murray vs Thiem/Medvedev

Slams 3 vs 2
Finals 11 vs 9
Masters 14 vs 7
ATP finals 1 vs 1
Top 10 wins 105 vs 73
Number 1 wins 13 vs 12


Thiem injured himself at age 27 and Medvedev is just 27 right now. Both their numbers will actually match Murray when we combine them.


I think it's totally a lie when people say Murray would have won 10 slams in some era. No era would he win 10.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Which era?
Click to expand...
Exactly. I see no era where he would win 10 slams. Even during 1997 to 2004, there was Sampras + Federer in 6 out of 8 Wimby slams
Agassi + Sampras + Federer in 5 out of 8 AO slams.
Agassi + Sampras + Federer in 3 out of 8 USO slams.
After 2004 it was the Fedal era. Murray had no chance then.

And Andy made his first clay final in 2015 I think. At age 28. I don't think he would win any RG.
So he would need to win 2/3 Wimbledons , 2/3 AO and then rest what 5/6 of the USOpens.
 
Nadal beat Federer in the 2005 French Open semi, and beat Djokovic in the 2008 Olympic semi.

Nadal, especially from 2005-2014, was the master in winning by far the highest percentage of his biggest matches compared to his rivals. Nadal, in the majors, was 18-5 against Federer and Djokovic after the 2014 French Open final, and is still 21-11 today.
 
DSH said:
2020-+ era.
:p
Click to expand...


Too soon to tell how this era will pan out, but Murray IS NOT a lock to beat old Djokovic and Nadal, Medvedev, Alcaraz, etc.

A young Murray would be the best player in the world, but Djokovic would be winning almost as much as him, you still had Nadal winning 2 RG since 2020, Djokovic at the AO would be better than Murray though I think Murray would win several of the past Wimbledons. At the USO Murray would win some but also lose to Djokovic or Alcaraz or Medvedev other years.

Let's just say I don't see Murray having a 3-slam year any year since 2020. He would win 1 in some and at best 2.
 
It's an interesting stat, for sure.
It's a shame that Murray's career seems to spark so much controversy here.

On court, he's never been a personal favorite, but that aside.
He's obviously an easy Hall of Famer.
He has to be a Top-15 player of the Open Era,
He's had, arguably, his best moments either representing his county -- two Olympic golds and almost singlehandedly winning a Davis Cup --
and on home soil (two Wimbys and an Olympics gold on Centre Court) and the 2016 ATP Finals at O2.
And while some criticize him for prolonging his career, he's showing how much he loves the game by continuing to compete.
 
Mainad said:
Being a stats nerd and getting a bit bored now waiting for the 2024 season to start , it occurred to me that Murray is the only 1 of the Big 5 (all current or very recent multiple Slam champions) who had to win his maiden titles in the final of ALL categories of tournaments against an existing Slam champion and usually a multiple Slam champion. Bolded figures represent a Slam champion.

Murray:

Slams: maiden title at 2012 US Open vs Djokovic
WTFs: maiden title at 2016 London vs Djokovic.
Olympics: maiden title at 2016 Wimbledon vs Federer.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2008 Cincinnati vs Djokovic.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2009 Rotterdam vs Nadal.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 San José vs Hewitt.

Federer:

Slams: maiden title at 2003 Wimbledon vs Philippoussis
WTFs: maiden title at 2003 Houston vs Agassi.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2002 Hamburg vs Safin.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2002 Vienna vs (Jiri) Novak.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2001 Milan vs Boutter.

Nadal:

Slams: maiden title at 2005 Roland Garros vs Puerta.
Olympics: maiden title at 2008 Beijing vs Gonzalez.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2005 Monte Carlo vs Coria.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2005 Acapulco vs Montanes.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2004 Sopot vs Acasuso.

Djokovic:

Slams: maiden title at 2008 Australian Open vs Tsonga.
WTFs: maiden title at 2008 Shanghai vs Davydenko.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2007 Miami vs Canas.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2007 Vienna vs Wawrinka (not yet a Slam champion).
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 Amersfoort vs Massu.

Wawrinka:

Slams: maiden title at 2014 Australian Open vs Nadal.
Masters 1000: maiden title at 2014 Monte Carlo vs Federer.
ATP500s: maiden title at 2015 Rotterdam vs Berdych.
ATP250s: maiden title at 2006 Umag vs Djokovic (not yet a Slam champion who retired from the match).


Don't anybody ever tell me Murray had it easy when fighting his way up the ranks! :cool:
Click to expand...
Murray's OG maiden title was in 2012 not 2016.
 
RaulRamirez said:
It's an interesting stat, for sure.
It's a shame that Murray's career seems to spark so much controversy here.

On court, he's never been a personal favorite, but that aside.
He's obviously an easy Hall of Famer.
He has to be a Top-15 player of the Open Era,
He's had, arguably, his best moments either representing his county -- two Olympic golds and almost singlehandedly winning a Davis Cup --
and on home soil (two Wimbys and an Olympics gold on Centre Court) and the 2016 ATP Finals at O2.
And while some criticize him for prolonging his career, he's showing how much he loves the game by continuing to compete.
Click to expand...

You know why it causes so much controversy here. He is in a tier of his own. He is not in big 3 tier. He is not in the rest tier. This means someone will always underrate and someone will always overrate him.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
You know why it causes so much controversy here.
Click to expand...
Controversy only because most people don't know how to look at data.

2008-2016 Big4 era (Murray first and last year end in top10 actually also top4), I included #5 Wawa to have a better idea in comparison (for Murray and Wawa, vs big4 is just vs big3, Murray-Wawa H2H is 10-5)

​
Nole​
Rafa​
Fed​
Murray​
Wawa​
GS​
12​
11​
5​
3​
3​
GS RU​
8​
4​
8​
8​
0​
TF​
5​
0​
2​
1​
0​
Masters​
28​
19​
10​
14​
1​
OG​
0​
1​
0​
2​
0​
Big Titles​
45​
31​
17​
20​
4​
Titles​
59​
46​
35​
40​
14​
win%​
85.83% 630-104​
83.69% 549-107​
82.66% 529-111​
80.86% 528-125​
67.47% 363-175​
ave opp rank​
20​
24​
23​
24​
30​
vs top5​
63.49% 80-46​
57.45% 54-40​
49.48% 48-49​
43.88% 43-55​
21.62% 16-58​
vs top10​
72.34% 170-65​
64.71% 110-60​
59.41% 101-69​
57.05% 89-67​
38.18% 42-68​
vs big4​
59.82% 67-45​
56.63% 47-36​
42.68% 35-47​
36.36% 28-49​
16.67% 9-45​
 
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nachiket nolefam said:
This is debunked a bunch of times.

Djokovic faced Federer in USO 11 Nadal in USO 11
He also faced Federer in USO 2007/2008/2009/2010. And Nadal in 2010.

Djokovic faced Federer in AO 08 semis and beat him to win the title at age 20.

Djokovic beat Nadal in Wimby 11 who was 2 time champion.

I think too much is made of the finalist ONLY and skipping semi and quarter finalist if the draws are imbalanced.

Nadal's best competition in RG 22 was Djokovic. Not Ruud.
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
I think Murray would win 2/3 slams even if born in early 80s instead of late 80s. Federer is not God. He has troubles against the guys with grinding baseline game. Murray is in that category. Murray would probably develop quicker and give Federer competition by age 24/25. Those AO and USO draws between 2004/2006 were not the best. Then we have some vaccum between Wimby 2009 to AO 2010.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
I think Murray would win 2/3 slams even if born in early 80s instead of late 80s. Federer is not God. He has troubles against the guys with grinding baseline game. Murray is in that category. Murray would probably develop quicker and give Federer competition by age 24/25. Those AO and USO draws between 2004/2006 were not the best. Then we have some vaccum between Wimby 2009 to AO 2010.
Click to expand...


Not always. He is 17-0 vs Ferrer and won FIFTEEN matches in a row vs Hewitt since 2004.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
I think Murray would win 2/3 slams even if born in early 80s instead of late 80s. Federer is not God. He has troubles against the guys with grinding baseline game. Murray is in that category. Murray would probably develop quicker and give Federer competition by age 24/25. Those AO and USO draws between 2004/2006 were not the best. Then we have some vaccum between Wimby 2009 to AO 2010.
Click to expand...

Develop quicker? LOL

Murray has nothing to hurt peak Federer, guys like him were always cannon fodder for Federer. Peak Federer was indeed godly who only struggled vs Nadal's scintillating athleticism and topspin forehand, nothing else. You have no idea how good Federer was, there is no way Murray is winning in slams even once vs Federer if aged same. This is no exaggeration.... it is a fact.

Peak Federer bageled Hewitt multiple times in 2004, that kind of treatment would be dished out to Murray.
 
Murray made 21 slam semifinals and 30 quarterfinals in his career.

Roddick made 10 slam semifinals and 19 quarterfinals in his career.

The floor for Murray is too high. He is consistently good. He even made all 4 slam semis in 2012 and has featured in all grand slam finals including Roland Garros.

Due to his consistency he would definitely grab a few slams if he was born in 1982 instead of Roddick.
 
What Nachiket fails to grasp is that greatness of non ATGs is dependent a LOT on birth years...... Only ATGs are somewhat immune to era changes (even their tallies would be affected a little bit but not much) ...... Murray benefitted a lot from being 6 years younger to Federer, thats how he escaped 3 times from the clutches of Djokovic and won 3 slams, but with peak Federer there won't be any room to escape even once, it would be a defeat daily..... Federer was that fu*kin good.
 
Razer said:
Murray if born in 1982 like Roddick, then he would have retired with 0 Slams, Peak Federer would have butchered him daily.
Click to expand...
how many slams for edberg born 82, what do you think
 
Razer said:
What Nachiket fails to grasp is that greatness of non ATGs is dependent a LOT on birth years...... Only ATGs are somewhat immune to era changes (even their tallies would be affected a little bit but not much) ...... Murray benefitted a lot from being 6 years younger to Federer, thats how he escaped 3 times from the clutches of Djokovic and won 3 slams, but with peak Federer there won't be any room to escape even once, it would be a defeat daily..... Federer was that fu*kin good.
Click to expand...

Federer allowed Delpo and Safin to get out of his clutches. Even before 2004, by age 20/21/22 Federer was not a lock for any title. Murray would have to face the same competition Roddick faced and Murray being better than Roddick would definitely win 2/3 slams. It's not a big deal.

Roddick had great serve and poor return. Federer neutralized him in tiebreaks. Federer won 12 out of 16 tiebreaks vs Roddick. 75%

While Federer can't do the same vs Murray. Murray broke Federer many times. He would get his chances.
 
Razer said:
Develop quicker? LOL

Murray has nothing to hurt peak Federer, guys like him were always cannon fodder for Federer. Peak Federer was indeed godly who only struggled vs Nadal's scintillating athleticism and topspin forehand, nothing else. You have no idea how good Federer was, there is no way Murray is winning in slams even once vs Federer if aged same. This is no exaggeration.... it is a fact.

Peak Federer bageled Hewitt multiple times in 2004, that kind of treatment would be dished out to Murray.
Click to expand...
Obviously, Fed is a much greater player than Murray, but (if my numbers are correct) Andy defeated Fed 8 out of their first 14 meetings!
And these were held before Fed turned 30. So much for "facts". And Andy was a much greater player than Ferrer, and a better player than Hewitt.
 
alexio said:
how many slams for edberg born 82, what do you think
Click to expand...

Cant comment a lot on edberg since I have not seen him but I reckon he must be better than Murray since he defeated Becker at Wimbledon 2 times, this is beyond the level of Murray. Edberg was a teenage prodigy too, which Federer was not, same for Becker too as he too was a prodigy, so these guys would be a physically imposing personalities in any era and will win some.. they would win in 00-03 phase if they are born in 1982..... Guys like Murray are beneficiaries of not being born with Federer, he played exclusively in an era where Djokovic was busy handling Fedal, nadal was having health issues and federer was declined in his 30s having health issues too.... thus creating an opening.

nachiket nolefam said:
Federer allowed Delpo and Safin to get out of his clutches. Even before 2004, by age 20/21/22 Federer was not a lock for any title. Murray would have to face the same competition Roddick faced and Murray being better than Roddick would definitely win 2/3 slams. It's not a big deal.

Roddick had great serve and poor return. Federer neutralized him in tiebreaks. Federer won 12 out of 16 tiebreaks vs Roddick. 75%

While Federer can't do the same vs Murray. Murray broke Federer many times. He would get his chances.
Click to expand...

Yes Federer is a lock for every single title if he faced Murray, lets me remind you that nobody allowed Del Potro anything, Del Potro took it like a real man that he is, he thrashed Nadal and then beat Federer in 09 to win the US Open. He did not wait for Nadal to be injured (2012USO) or Federer to be injured/out of form (2013W) or all the Big 3 to be terrible form (2016W) to collect his entire resume. Murray in an ideal scenario could have been on 0 slams in this era too if someone as brutal and consistent as peak Federer was around.
 
RaulRamirez said:
Obviously, Fed is a much greater player than Murray, but (if my numbers are correct) Andy defeated Fed 8 out of their first 14 meetings!
And these were held before Fed turned 30. So much for "facts". And Andy was a much greater player than Ferrer, and a better player than Hewitt.
Click to expand...

Andy defeated Federer 0 times in Slams in those 14 meetings, so little wins dont count much.

Even Davydenko defeated Nadal many times, but does that matter? I am sure if Nadal had played him in Slams then Nadal would not give 3 sets.
 
Federer DR aggregate vs Murray is 1.15
While his aggregate DR vs Roddick is 1.49

Federer would have much tougher time vs Murray than Roddick. Obviously Murray is losing as per DR but Fed still would get more opposition. Murray return of serve troubled everyone.
 
Stats definitely point to Fed having issues vs Murray. Guys like @Razer want to only look at slam H2H but we don't. Murray had much success vs Federer than almost anyone else. When Federer changed his racket in 2014 it all changed.

Before 2014
Fed was 9-11 trailing vs Murray.

After Racket change he went
5-0

Clearly Murray is not in the same league as the guy like Roddick who went 3-23 vs Fed.
 
of course murray is not roddick, anyone shouldnt put an equal sign between em, even natf
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Stats definitely point to Fed having issues vs Murray.
Click to expand...

Yeah I am sure Federer had real problems against the 6 years younger fellow whom he leads 5-1 in Slams despite making GS final long after that guy was broken down ?

LOL

I think we all deserve such problems in life, pigeons whom we beat 5-1 at something (that 1 too came in an year when Fed was having back issues) ..... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


Get real nachiket .....

Murray might have been a pain in the arse for Djokovic due to their playing style, but vs Federer he was a punching bag ...... The wins which Murray got early vs Federer was because Federer never cared much for best of 3 sets in those days, didn't I remind you how Federer tanked cinci 2006 to prepare for US open and "gifted" Murray the win ? ...... Thats why I say, Stats won't tell you the true story, if you had seen Federer in the mid 2000s then you would know how good he was. He was godly, it would take an exceptional performance to beat him..... Safin, Del Potro all produced that, thats why they won.
 
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