Big 5 maiden titles in all categories stats
- Thread starter Mainad
- Start date
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Murray is same as Hewitt ..... both slightly better than Roddick and peak for peak all of them lower than Safin.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
If Federer was good he would win vs Murray more. He had 9-11 vs Murray before 2014. That's the fact.Yeah I am sure Federer had real problems against the 6 years younger fellow whom he leads 5-1 in Slams despite making GS final long after that guy was broken down ?
LOL
I think we all deserve such problems in life, pigeons whom we beat 5-1 at something (that 1 too came in an year when Fed was having back issues) .....
Get real nachiket .....
Murray might have been a pain in the arse for Djokovic due to their playing style, but vs Federer he was a punching bag ...... The wins which Murray got early vs Federer was because Federer never cared much for best of 3 sets in those days, didn't I remind you how Federer tanked cinci 2006 to prepare for US open and "gifted" Murray the win ? ...... Thats why I say, Stats won't tell you the true story, if you had seen Federer in 2000s then you would know how good he was. He was godly, it would take an exceptional performance to beat him..... Safin, Del Potro all produced that, thats why they won.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Why isn't it registering in your head that Federer took best of 3 sets lightly and best of 5 sets is a different ball game where Murray could not touch ?
Murray is freakin 1-5 vs Federer who was 6 years older than him. 5 of those 6 matches happened from 2010 onwards when Murray was in his prime age 23+ and Federer was 27-28 or more.....
How pathetic was Murray to get straight setted at wimbledon in 2015 ? or to lose in a GS Final at the same arena in 2012 when it really counted ? I know it is too hard for you to understand that players decline after 28 but they do, Federer if aged 22-27 instead of 28-34 when he faced Murray then he would have reduced Murray to Roddick status..... this is what you need to understand Nachiket.
RS
Bionic Poster
Great stylish matchups,
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Who cares
We talked about Andy Roddick vs Andy Murray.
Roddick went 0-5 vs fed. Murray with even 1-5 gets another slam because Fed's era was pathetic. And Murray being far more consistent than Roddick, he would go 2-10 vs fed instead of 1-5.
All I said is Murray would win 2/3 slams if born in 1982. I didn't say he wins 10.
You on the other hand are trying to underrate Murray now. You know nothing at pro level. Fed may look unbeatable to you but he has lost many a times.
Pheasant
Legend
MuryGOAT played Fed tough in Best of 3 matches, but struggled mightily in Best of 5 matches vs The Maestro. However, MuryGOAT hit his prime much earlier than Fed did. If MuryGOAT were born in 1981 like Fed, then we'd have 2008 MuryGOAT playing in 2002, 2009 MuryGOAT playing in 2003,etc.
2002:
AO: 2008 4R loss. Nothing is happening here most likely
FO: 2008 3R loss. nope, not winning 2002 FO
WI: 2008 -Made QF and then lost to Nadal in straights. I could see MuryGOAT going to the final here and facing Hewitt. coinflip. decent chance for MuryGOAT
USO: 2008-- made final and lost in straights to Fed. In 2002, He'd have Sampras, Agassi, Hewitt, and Safin to deal with. He'd have his chances. But they are slim. Mischa Zverev wtih his serve and volley pushed #1 MuryGOAT to the brink at a hard court slam, IIRC. I don't like his chances here
2003(2009 MuryGOAT)
AO: lost in 4R. not happening
FO: lost in QF to Gonzalez. I think that Ferrero, or somebody even earlier takes him out. Slim chance
WI: lost in semis to Roddick. Federer was very dangerous here. Slim chance.
USO: lost in 4R in 2009. I don't like his chances here either
2004:
AO: lost in final to Federer in straights. Here, I don't see him beating the 2004 Fed at all. This is when Fed began his insane streak on hard courts and against the top-10. Slim chance
FO: lost in 4R in 2010. Somebody like Federer or Kuerten likely takes him out before he even gets a whiff of the final. Slim chance
WI: lost in semis to Nadal in straights in 2010. I don't like his chances here against peak Roddick or Federer. Slim chance
USO: lost in R3 in 2010. I don't see him beating the same Fed that double-bageled Hewitt in the final. Slim chance
2005:
AO: Lost final to Djoker in straights. I don't think that he takes down Safin or Federer. Slim chance
FO: Lost to Nadal in straights. I'm taking 2005 Nadal here. No chance
WI: lost in semis to Nadal in 4. Federer was huge at this Wimbledon; one of his very best showings. Slim chance
USO: lost in semis to Nadal in 4. Getting past Agassi and Federer will be very tough here. slim chance
2006:
AO: 2012-- lost in semis to Djoker in 5 sets. This is Murray's best chance, IMHO. I might give him a legit shot here against Federer.
FO: lost in QF to Ferrer. Nadal easily...noce chance
WI: lost to Federer in final. very slim chance vs 2006 FEd
US: Beat DJoker in 5. But this was Fed's very best year. Slim chance
2007:
AO: Federer was too much here.
FO: Nadal way too good
WI: 2013 MuryGOAT's chances are very slim here.
USO: slim chance
2008: Mury was injured in 2014. I don't like any of his chances here.
2009:
AO: Nadal and Federer too tough
FO: FEd was too tough
WI: 2015 Fed smoked MuryGOAT in straights. I'm taking 2009 FEd here too
USO: Fed or Delpo takes out MuryGOAT
2010:
AO: Federer wins
FO: Nadal way too tough
WI: Nadal over 2016 Mury GOAT
USO: Nadal way too tough
I'd put MuryGOAT's total at 2 max. He maybe beats Hewitt in Wimbledon in 2002 and Federer in 2006 at the AO. I wasn't impressed with Fed at the AO that year. The rest, he's a longshot.
2 Slams for MuryGOAT.
2002:
AO: 2008 4R loss. Nothing is happening here most likely
FO: 2008 3R loss. nope, not winning 2002 FO
WI: 2008 -Made QF and then lost to Nadal in straights. I could see MuryGOAT going to the final here and facing Hewitt. coinflip. decent chance for MuryGOAT
USO: 2008-- made final and lost in straights to Fed. In 2002, He'd have Sampras, Agassi, Hewitt, and Safin to deal with. He'd have his chances. But they are slim. Mischa Zverev wtih his serve and volley pushed #1 MuryGOAT to the brink at a hard court slam, IIRC. I don't like his chances here
2003(2009 MuryGOAT)
AO: lost in 4R. not happening
FO: lost in QF to Gonzalez. I think that Ferrero, or somebody even earlier takes him out. Slim chance
WI: lost in semis to Roddick. Federer was very dangerous here. Slim chance.
USO: lost in 4R in 2009. I don't like his chances here either
2004:
AO: lost in final to Federer in straights. Here, I don't see him beating the 2004 Fed at all. This is when Fed began his insane streak on hard courts and against the top-10. Slim chance
FO: lost in 4R in 2010. Somebody like Federer or Kuerten likely takes him out before he even gets a whiff of the final. Slim chance
WI: lost in semis to Nadal in straights in 2010. I don't like his chances here against peak Roddick or Federer. Slim chance
USO: lost in R3 in 2010. I don't see him beating the same Fed that double-bageled Hewitt in the final. Slim chance
2005:
AO: Lost final to Djoker in straights. I don't think that he takes down Safin or Federer. Slim chance
FO: Lost to Nadal in straights. I'm taking 2005 Nadal here. No chance
WI: lost in semis to Nadal in 4. Federer was huge at this Wimbledon; one of his very best showings. Slim chance
USO: lost in semis to Nadal in 4. Getting past Agassi and Federer will be very tough here. slim chance
2006:
AO: 2012-- lost in semis to Djoker in 5 sets. This is Murray's best chance, IMHO. I might give him a legit shot here against Federer.
FO: lost in QF to Ferrer. Nadal easily...noce chance
WI: lost to Federer in final. very slim chance vs 2006 FEd
US: Beat DJoker in 5. But this was Fed's very best year. Slim chance
2007:
AO: Federer was too much here.
FO: Nadal way too good
WI: 2013 MuryGOAT's chances are very slim here.
USO: slim chance
2008: Mury was injured in 2014. I don't like any of his chances here.
2009:
AO: Nadal and Federer too tough
FO: FEd was too tough
WI: 2015 Fed smoked MuryGOAT in straights. I'm taking 2009 FEd here too
USO: Fed or Delpo takes out MuryGOAT
2010:
AO: Federer wins
FO: Nadal way too tough
WI: Nadal over 2016 Mury GOAT
USO: Nadal way too tough
I'd put MuryGOAT's total at 2 max. He maybe beats Hewitt in Wimbledon in 2002 and Federer in 2006 at the AO. I wasn't impressed with Fed at the AO that year. The rest, he's a longshot.
2 Slams for MuryGOAT.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
LOL ...... that's the most hilarious thing ever said in defence of Murray.....
...... Spoken like a true guy who never watched anything before 2012, otherwise you would not say this.It does not matter how pathetic Federer's era was, you would still have to beat him to win a slam and that was IMPOSSIBLE for Murray....
Murray's best surface was Grass and that is the surface where Federer is GOAT..... 0 shots at touching Federer who won some 70+ match on grass between 03-09 with lone defeat to Nadal in 08.... Murray won't even able to take Fed to 5 sets.
Murray next best slam is US open and thats the last slam of the year where Federer was on a 5 title streak, he was that damn good .....he was double bageling hewitt there...... so no chance again
Murray would have some attempts at Aus open but Marat Safin & Andre Agassi would not allow Murray to even reach the final until 2006..... 2007 Fed was invincible in Aus... 2008 Nole himself arrived
French Open.... forget it...
So the only slam which Murray could have a small chance to win (very small chance) would be Aus Open 2006 in place of Baggy in the final, but what are the odds ? I would say near 0
So Murray retires with 0 Slams if born in 1982
Like I said buddy, it doesnt matter how weak Fed's era was, you still have to beat him in every slam, ask Hewitt what happened, almost in slams from 04-05 it was Federer was stopped him in most of them..... roddick too.... you think Murray is touching Fed? what are you smoking?
A leopard cannot beat 1 Tiger just because there are not 2 tiger around, a tiger is still a tiger and you aint going past it, a leopard is weaker for a reason.
Last edited:
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Murray can beat Federer And he did beat Federer in AO 13. It's possible.
I remember Federer using curse words when that happened.
I remember Federer using curse words when that happened.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Check my signature. Fedr got lucky. Courtesy of Spencer Gore.
I wasn't being too serious. But Murray to me is of a different quality than everyone after his own generation up to Alcaraz.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Federer was 31.5 in AO2013, no longer in his prime, his body was breaking down that year, had back problems, his first serves were horrible, he was really struggling that whole year while Murray was at his absolute best ever level, yet he needed 5 sets to beat Federer, he probably could have won in 4 but tell me what happened next year? Murray was again beaten when Fed was fitter and in better form. Compare this to 2005 when Safin defeated a Federer who was full fit and young, 23 years old... Big difference in the level needed to beat Federer in 04-09, try to understand @nachiket nolefam, when a player is in his early-late 20s, his good days are far more than when he is 31-32, recovery is faster, there wont be any defeat for Roger because he was too good.
Murray is not winning any slam in all likelihood, he would have a small small shot at aus open 2006 but I still don't see Federer lose that, he was that damn good. Even if Murray manages to sneak in a slam
You are too generous Sir.... I dont even see 08 Murray beat 02 Hewitt tbh.... the AO06 I agree would be the lone window for Andy to reach the final in place of Baggy with a much betetr shot, can he win ? I donno, Federer was really bad against Baggy for the first 2 sets but what if the match went to 5 and then Federer found his level in last 2 sets ? He ain't losing it in 06 since that is his best year .... I would say Murray either wins 1 (2006ao) or 0....
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Next year Federer got better racket and now Murray's body was breaking down. Don't put your one way narrative here. Murray had struggled entire 2013 since Wimbledon end till AO 2015 where he beat Berdych to reach a slam final. In 2014 Murray was on the verge of not making the YEC. His sole high pt was somehow he made to RG semis. But he was thrashed by Nadal there.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
and you think 2014 Federer is same as 2004 or 2007 or 2009 Federer energy, speed and powerwise? Why did Federer need a new Racquet in the first place? It is because he had declined. The new racquet only helped Federer against Nadal because it improved the backhand wing, but against Nole, Murray and everyone Federer's actual forehand had declined. Peak Federer was a different beast, he would be a nightmare for Murray, there is a reason why Murray is 1-5 to Fed. Even if Murray had not struggled in 2014, he would still have been decimated by a fit Federer. Federer is too skilled for Murray to hang around with even on Murray's best day.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
No
New racket helped him vs all. @Pheasant already showed. He was losing to Murray Berdych and others but with new racket he got better vs all.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Did he get better than what he was in 2004-09 ?
Do you think Berdych/Tsonga are better players than Roddick/Safin ?
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Slam semi > 250, 500, Masters final
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Murray born in 82 maybe wins USO 2003 which would be his 08 self. Anything else is highly unlikely. 2012, 2013 Murray will not win slams in 2007, 2008. 2016 Murray lands in 2011 where he won’t beat Novak.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
While Novak handled Fedal well in slams once hitting his prime, he was always the most vulnerable against lesser players so Murray was indeed lucky to face him at Wimbledon 13 and USO 12. Novak has these strange off-days, Fedal I cannot see losing slam finals to Murray.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Not that it makes a difference but Roddick is 3-21 against Fed. The 3-23 is Stan vs Fed.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Can 2008 Murray beat 2003 Roddick ?
Roddick was brutus in 03-04 you know, I find it a bit far fetched to think 08 Murray will win even there against the home fav Roddick who was serving with brute force, he hit like 23 aces past Ferrero in the final. .
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Depends on when they meet. Roddick played great in the final but Ferrero also played really bad. Murray was subpar in his final bit against peak Fed not too surprising. In their respective semis though, Murray was better against Nadal than Rod against Nalby. It is not a given but Murray has realistic chances here, more than against Fedal or peak Djokovic.
Pheasant
Legend
Roddick was the #1 ranked server in 2003; probably his most dominant year overall and at serving. He won 91.4% of his service games for the whole year. The next best service game hold rate that year was by Federer with a very distant 87.3%.
Roddick also dropped 38 aces on Nalbandian in the semi. Nalbandian was the #5 ranked returner that year.
Roddick had a ridiculous 95.8% service game hold rate at the USO that year. His Dominance Ratio(DR) at that event was also an eye-popping 1.57. How do those numbers hold up? Let's compare them to Fed's during his famous 5-year run:
2004: 88.8%, DR of 1.36
2005: 89.0%, DR of 1.40
2006: 91.7%, DR of 1.59
2007: 92.1%, DR of 1.54
2008: 92.4%, DR of 1.39
2012 Murray, for comparison(the year he won the title): 80.5% service game hold rate with a DR of 1.22
2008 Murray: 82.7% hold rate with a DR of 1.19
2003 Roddick would have his chances against 2008 Murray and 2008 Federer at the USO, IMO.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Lol...which is why their H2H ended up 14-11 to Fed, by far the closest of any of the H2Hs Murray had with the Big 3!
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Lol...which is why their H2H ended up 14-11 to Fed, by far the closest of any of the H2Hs Murray had with the Big 3!
Please Talk of Best 5 sets only.
Davydonko's H2H is 6-5 vs Nadal, but that doesn't mean much.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Okay, but how many players have straight-setted Federer in a Bo5 set final like Murray did?
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Daveydenko beat Nadal in hard courts and indoors. It's much different than Murray beating Federer on Cincinnati and Wimbledon as well.
Nadal has not won a set vs Nole in last 10 years on hc. He is no HC goat. Federer maybe the grass GOAT.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Irrelevant..... Federer was tired after his del p match.... plus it was not a slam....
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I'm not interested in excuses just stating the facts and you asked about Bo5 encounters whether Slam or not and I gave you one.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I thought Federer was tired as well
But he had 1 day gap it seems between the two matches.
No excuses. Andy won fair and square. So 2 best of five wins.
1 at AO
1 at SW19
Combined fed has won 14 slams here.
Andy Murray isn't Andy Roddick.
But he had 1 day gap it seems between the two matches.
No excuses. Andy won fair and square. So 2 best of five wins.
1 at AO
1 at SW19
Combined fed has won 14 slams here.
Andy Murray isn't Andy Roddick.
RS
Bionic Poster
2008 Fed is highly unlikely to lose 2003 Roddick. Perhaps a couple times out of 20 is a loss.
Pheasant
Legend
Normally, I'd agree with that, given that they are playing the same year. But Roddick was a monster at the 2003 USO(BY FAR the best slam tourney of his career) while Fed was only good(by his standards) at the 2008 USO. He needed 5 sets to take out Andreev. Qualifier Muller pushed Fed to a pair of tiebreakers in that match.
Federer's return game is what suffered the most by 2008, which is why Federer actually should have lost the 2009 Wimbledon final to Roddick.
But here, we are talking about hard courts. Let's take look at Fed's DR(dominance ratio), RPW(return points won %), and BRK%(return games won%) by year on hard courts.
2004: 1.38/41.2%/29.4%
2005: 1.42/41.8%/30.5%
2006: 1.42 /42.2%/31.7%
2007: 1.41/40.6%/28.7%
2008: 1.32/38.8%/25.4%
2009: 1.27/38.6%/25.5%
Federer was clearly declining for good in 2008. That's a damn shame. That's on him. He didn't do anything about it until he switched rackets at the end of the 2013 season. But by then, his movement wasn't the same.
But, I'll play along. Given their form, best of 20 matches at the USO:
2003 Roddick 10-10 vs 2008 Federer- I'm giving 2008 Federer the benefit of the doubt here, due to his huge matchup advantage vs Roddick. 2003 Roddick was clearly in better form than 2008 Federer at the USO. But Fed matches up very well against Roddick.
2006 Federer 14-6 over 2003 Roddick
2004 Federer 15-5 over 2003 Roddick
2006 was probably the closest to a peak matchup at the USO Federer and Roddick. However, Roddick was better in 2003 than in 2006. In 2006, Federer beat Roddick in 4 sets. That was a good match.
Note: I saw an interview with Roddick in 2007. He was asked about whether or not he looks at the radar gun after he serves. He said, "all the time, and each year since 2004, I've lost about 2-3 mph."
Tennfan123
Legend
The Stans disgrace themselves again.
And once more, I agree with Razer.
And once more, I agree with Razer.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
A streak that Hewitt ended in 2010. Nobody beats Lleyton Hewitt 16 times in a row.
But Roddick is 5-4 against Djokovic who's 25-11 against Murray
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
LOL
I'm using the identical logic that you're using(H2H) to pump Murray over Roddick. But when the argument works against your narrative, you get mad and making excuse.
LOL again
People who live in glass house shouldn't throw stones
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
It's crazy because Hewitt had declined FAR more than Federer compared to when they were both peaking in 2004 and 2005 but he managed to beat him in 2010 and even in 2014 when Hewitt was basically a former player.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
This is the only area where I agree with you, Murray though better than Roddick was just slightly better, not too far a difference, what made a difference was the birth years.
Roddick retired at 30 because he did not want to work hard to make a comeback, he saw it as pointless since it was 2011-2012 and the heart of the strong era. Thats what happens when you are born close to Federer and 4-5 years older to Djokodal.... No room to hide behind injury patterns of anyone..... but if Roddick was born in lets say 1987-88 instead of 1982 i.e 5-6 years later, then he would have hung around, when Djokodal got injured in 2016 or had their slump he would have tried to collect a slam or 2 there, he would also not have retired at 30, he would have still been playing
That is the difference between Roddick and Murray's birth trajectory @nachiket nolefam
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
This is the only area where I agree with you, Murray though better than Roddick was just slightly better, not too far a difference, what made a difference was the birth years.
Roddick retired at 30 because he did not want to work hard to make a comeback, he saw it as pointless since it was 2011-2012 and the heart of the strong era. Thats what happens when you are born close to Federer and 4-5 years older to Djokodal.... No room to hide behind injury patterns of anyone..... but if Roddick was born in lets say 1987-88 instead of 1982 i.e 5-6 years later, then he would have hung around, when Djokodal got injured in 2016 or had their slump he would have tried to collect a slam or 2 there, he would also not have retired at 30, he would have still been playing
That is the difference between Roddick and Murray's birth trajectory @nachiket nolefam
You can compare age over age and see. Murray lead Roddick in almost every area except slams until age 24. And Roddick lead Murray only in slams where he anyway didn't face Agassi didn't face Federer.
Murray had not just Federer until age 24, but Nadal in 2010 Wimby and Djokovic in 2011/2012 AO. I don't believe in your theories of birth years. The cream rises to the top. It's just Murray is 2/3 slam calibre player so in any era he would have similar according to his level.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
They play 4 QFs in big tourneys (and many in the draws of QF but does not play out) plus TF group, THEY really good at max rigging against Nole even before he peaks.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Hewitt usually beat pre-prime Federer, also. 7-2 to Hewitt in their head-to-head at the end of 2003.
Pheasant
Legend
Lots of people mopped up on prepeak Federer.
Nalbandian was 5-0 vs prepeak Federer
Henman was 6-1 vs prepeak Federer
Hewitt was 7-2 vs prepeak Federer
Old Agassi was 3-0 vs prepeak Federer
Even Michael Chang stomped prepeak Federer on a grass court in straight sets.
I'm sure that I'm missing a bunch more.
But Roddick always struggled against Federer. Prepeak Federer was always pretty good at returning bomb serves on fast surfaces, which took away Roddick's key weapon.
Nalbandian was 5-0 vs prepeak Federer
Henman was 6-1 vs prepeak Federer
Hewitt was 7-2 vs prepeak Federer
Old Agassi was 3-0 vs prepeak Federer
Even Michael Chang stomped prepeak Federer on a grass court in straight sets.
I'm sure that I'm missing a bunch more.
But Roddick always struggled against Federer. Prepeak Federer was always pretty good at returning bomb serves on fast surfaces, which took away Roddick's key weapon.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Nice. Seems to be a pattern.
BauerAlmeida
Hall of Fame
Yup. Roddick could never get a Bo5 win against Federer, pre peak or peak, Hewitt got 1 and Nalbandian got 3.
Neither Roddick nor Hewitt managed to get a win vs Federer between 2004 and 2007, Bo3 or Bo5.
Bastion
Semi-Pro
Fed vs Andy 14-11Yeah I am sure Federer had real problems against the 6 years younger fellow whom he leads 5-1 in Slams despite making GS final long after that guy was broken down ?
LOL
I think we all deserve such problems in life, pigeons whom we beat 5-1 at something (that 1 too came in an year when Fed was having back issues) .....
Get real nachiket .....
Murray might have been a pain in the arse for Djokovic due to their playing style, but vs Federer he was a punching bag ...... The wins which Murray got early vs Federer was because Federer never cared much for best of 3 sets in those days, didn't I remind you how Federer tanked cinci 2006 to prepare for US open and "gifted" Murray the win ? ...... Thats why I say, Stats won't tell you the true story, if you had seen Federer in the mid 2000s then you would know how good he was. He was godly, it would take an exceptional performance to beat him..... Safin, Del Potro all produced that, thats why they won.
Goat vs Andy 25-11
What did we all miss?
Similar threads
- Poll
- Deleted member 629564
- General Pro Player Discussion
