Big3 want to be the BOAT, not the GOAT

Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
I think the Big3 and basically all tennis experts know that there is really no GOAT and there will never be. There is a list of players who all were much superior to their contemporaries, and that's it. Tilden, Laver, Budge, Gonzales, Sampras, Borg, Big3... They're all GOATs.

What is really pushing Big3 is proving to be a better player than the other two. That's why for example Federer says he's playing his best tennis in his last years. He doesn't really care much about his slams won over Roddick/Hewitt, clearly limited players. He would give away 10 slams of 2003-07 for 5 slams won in the last years over Djokovic and Nadal.

After all, most of you are tennis players. What would you prefer deep inside? Be the best tennis player, or be the one who won the most?

Big3 reached a level that could basically never be surpassed again. Being the best among them would maybe mean be the best ever. Of present, past and future times.
 
How about Mats Wilander and Stakhovsky? With incredible close match wins percentage , they should be in the mix as well .
 
If you want to write random thoughts you get in your mind , don’t waste internet space . Just get a notebook and scribble down
 
tennisaddict said:
If you want to write random thoughts you get in your mind , don’t waste internet space . Just get a notebook and scribble down
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13 slams to 6 but he already felt inferior.
 
I don’t think Fed would give away slams at half the rate to win them vs Djokdal but aside from that you make some good points. I don’t believe Fed was playing his best ever tennis as a whole but he was certainly a ATG even post 2007 when most end his peak.
 
junior74 said:
In the summer of 2015 Federer was almost as good as Wawrinka...
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“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August, 2015)
 
ABCD said:
“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August, 2015)
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Do you think 2019 Djokovic is better than 2015 Djokovic then going by that logic?
 
ABCD said:
“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August, 2015)
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Federer is still evolving, as we all know.
 
ReeceSachs said:
Do you think 2019 Djokovic is better than 2015 Djokovic then going by that logic?
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Logic is self-assessment of a player. If Djokovic says that he is better, then he is better. During USO in 2018 Djokovic said that he played as well as ever and, for me, that is his best version. BTW, when he said that, he also said that the best hard court version of Federer he ever played against was 2015 USO version.
 
ABCD said:
Logic is self-assessment of a player. If Djokovic says that he is better, then he is better. During USO in 2018 Djokovic said that he played as well as ever and, for me, that is his best version. BTW, when he said that he also said that the best hard court version of Federer he ever played against was 2015 USO version.
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Do you think the game gets better every year as well. Would you say 2019 is stronger than say 2011-12? Because the sport evolved and they all improved?
 
ReeceSachs said:
Do you think the game gets better every year as well. Would you say 2019 is stronger than say 2011-12? Because the sport evolved and they all improved?
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Not always year by year and not necessarily, but if you pick up decades as increments yes. Accumulated knowledge makes crucial aspects of the game much better.
 
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junior74 said:
Confirmed, then!
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No doubts. Federer himself confirmed:

Question:

In 2003 you won your first title in Dubai. How much chances would the Federer of 2003 have against the Federer of today? (Dubai March, 2019)

Answer from Federer:

Not many chances I believe. The game has extremely changed. It is more dynamic, faster and has become somewhat ruthless. The players are more athletic and the material makes the game faster. I myself have become better. In fact, I had to become better because I had new opponents and new challenges. Tennis on this level doesn’t allow you stagnancy.
 
KINGROGER said:
You’re full of ****. 2015 version isn’t even in Fed’s top 7 there (2004-2009 and 2011 easily above)
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2009 and 2011 not easily above IMO. He missed big leads in both and had inconsistencies in both key matches.
 
ABCD said:
Not always year by year and not necessarily, but if you pick up decades as increments yes. Accumulated knowledge makes crucial aspects of the game much better.
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So would you be willing to say that some years earlier were better than the current era even if Nadal a whole this decade is among the best.
 
ReeceSachs said:
So would you be willing to say that some years earlier were better than the current era even if Nadal a whole this decade is among the best.
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My opinion is that all 3 gradually improved over time with some ups/downs. As an example, I believe that today, when healthy, all 3 are better players than they were in 2011. However, they are the only ones that can assess themselves properly (as they know how they feel inside). Typically, people confuse level of performance with outcome of performance. I know that I am today better player than ever, but I am losing more as I play better players now than I played then.
 
ABCD said:
“I think I’m a better player now than when I was at 24 because I’ve practiced for another 10 years and I’ve got 10 years more experience,” Federer said. “Maybe I don’t have the confidence level that I had at 24 when I was winning 40 matches in a row, but I feel like I hit a bigger serve, my backhand is better, my forehand is still as good as it’s ever been, I volley better than I have in the past. I think I’ve had to adapt to a new generation of players again.” (August, 2015)
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This is the elephant in the room, don't you think ? More than that Fed at 24 had less mileage, more stamina and needed less time to recover.This is very important too.He improved later in his career on certain aspects of the game, but father time is undefeated.
 
ABCD said:
No doubts. Federer himself confirmed:

Question:

In 2003 you won your first title in Dubai. How much chances would the Federer of 2003 have against the Federer of today? (Dubai March, 2019)

Answer from Federer:

Not many chances I believe. The game has extremely changed. It is more dynamic, faster and has become somewhat ruthless. The players are more athletic and the material makes the game faster. I myself have become better. In fact, I had to become better because I had new opponents and new challenges. Tennis on this level doesn’t allow you stagnancy.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
ABCD said:
My opinion is that all 3 gradually improved over time with some ups/downs. As an example, I believe that today, when healthy, all 3 are better players than they were in 2011. However, they are the only ones that can assess themselves properly (as they know how they feel inside). Typically, people confuse level of performance with outcome of performance. I know that I am today better player than ever, but I am losing more as I play better players now than I played then.
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while this is partially true, would you expect any of the 3, while they keep playing to come out, at a press conference and say: today I am a weaker player than I was x years ago, because my movement is not as good, and this shot as well is not as good, and I am laughing at the rest of the tour that I can still get away with it at my age?

Sampras, Agassi, and every player that ended his / her carrier, at the moment when they announced it, had X years of more practice.
Perhaps they would defeat their younger copies.
Yet they had to stop, and I guess it has a connection with being a serious contender for top of the ranking / titles as opposed to facing more and more defeats.
 
blablavla said:
while this is partially true, would you expect any of the 3, while they keep playing to come out, at a press conference and say: today I am a weaker player than I was x years ago, because my movement is not as good, and this shot as well is not as good, and I am laughing at the rest of the tour that I can still get away with it at my age?
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Yes. I heard Nadal saying such a thing in 2015.
 
ABCD said:
Yes. I heard Nadal saying such a thing in 2015.
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because he faced another injury and wasn't sure if he will keep playing?

or he said that he keeps winning despite being a lesser player as opposed to a younger Nadal and laughs at the tour as he gets away with it?

I would like to see a link.
 
Sorry guys, I am currently busy and can't continue this discussion, but you got my drift. Enjoy your exchanges.
 
ABCD said:
My opinion is that all 3 gradually improved over time with some ups/downs. As an example, I believe that today, when healthy, all 3 are better players than they were in 2011. However, they are the only ones that can assess themselves properly (as they know how they feel inside). Typically, people confuse level of performance with outcome of performance. I know that I am today better player than ever, but I am losing more as I play better players now than I played then.
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Fair enough point. Federer isn’t just losing to better player this days. He is losing to players like Millman in slams. He is losing to players who couldn’t touch him at majors from 2004 to AO 10.
The Big 3 can certainly play peak matches that are better than they played in say 2011 and before like Nadal did in the RG17 final,Djokovic did in the last 2 rounds of AO 19 and like Fed did at IW 17. Problem is sustaining it over a long period of time.
 
ReeceSachs said:
Fair enough point. Federer isn’t just losing to better player this days. He is losing to players like Millman in slams. He is losing to players who couldn’t touch him at majors from 2004 to AO 10.
The Big 3 can certainly play peak matches that are better than they played in say 2011 and before like Nadal did in the RG17 final,Djokovic did in the last 2 rounds of AO 19 and like Fed did at IW 17. Problem is sustaining it over a long period of time.
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Today's Millman is better than 15 years' ago equally ranked player.

There's now a bigger threat in every round. A day off and you're out.
 
Lew II said:
Today's Millman is better than 15 years' ago equally ranked player.

There's now a bigger threat in every round. A day off and you're out.
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Jonas Bjorkman was number 55 in 2004. What does Millman do to put him so far above. I haven’t seen it.
Since 2016 the field has taken a steep decline. In 2012 or so what you were saying would be correct.
 
ReeceSachs said:
Jonas Bjorkman was number 55 in 2004. What does Millman do to put him so far above. I haven’t seen it.
Since 2016 the field has taken a steep decline. In 2012 or so what you were saying would be correct.
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I agree 2016 marks something.

It's also the last year someone outside Big3 won a slam...
 
Lew II said:
I think the Big3 and basically all tennis experts know that there is really no GOAT and there will never be. There is a list of players who all were much superior to their contemporaries, and that's it. Tilden, Laver, Budge, Gonzales, Sampras, Borg, Big3... They're all GOATs.

What is really pushing Big3 is proving to be a better player than the other two. That's why for example Federer says he's playing his best tennis in his last years. He doesn't really care much about his slams won over Roddick/Hewitt, clearly limited players. He would give away 10 slams of 2003-07 for 5 slams won in the last years over Djokovic and Nadal.

After all, most of you are tennis players. What would you prefer deep inside? Be the best tennis player, or be the one who won the most?

Big3 reached a level that could basically never be surpassed again. Being the best among them would maybe mean be the best ever. Of present, past and future times.
Click to expand...
In the future people will be able to play sports in general and tennis in particular way longer than now. That's why the big 3 are not retired by now, something that would be unthinkable, say, 40 years ago. So they will have many more chances to win GS after all. That's why we cannot say that arr going to br the best ever. Maybe one of the ones that had more competition, but not the best at all. There will be someone that will win 30+ GS for sure, no doubt about it
 
MambiPambi said:
I wasn't talking about TeamRafa. I was referring to your hypocrisy.
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Lol hypocrisy bc you say so? Nice. The GOAT concept dying among weeping fanboys, that have clearly always touted a "GOAT" has no relevance with some H2H argument that doesn't decide anything, it's #of slams for better or for worse ;) Nadal is closer than anyone ever expected he would be and the results of that to one's psyche differ.....

image
 
MichaelNadal said:
Lol hypocrisy bc you say so? Nice. The GOAT concept dying among weeping fanboys, that have clearly always touted a "GOAT" has no relevance with some H2H argument that doesn't decide anything, it's #of slams for better or for worse ;) Nadal is closer than anyone ever expected he would be and the results of that to one's psyche differ.....

image
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Nadal doesn't have the record yet.

I'd be careful if I were you. He nearly had one of the all time greatest chokes ever in the final vs Medvedev. It won't get any easier for him from here. The pressure is on.
 
Frank Bannister said:
Nadal doesn't have the record yet.

I'd be careful if I were you. He nearly had one of the all time greatest chokes ever in the final vs Medvedev. It won't get any easier for him from here. The pressure is on.
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I don't need him to have the record, it would be business as usual :) everyone is freaking out though, it's crazy :p unlike a lot of Maestronians, I don't think Fed is done
 
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