BJK - men should not play 5 sets at Grand Slams anymore.

Should men continue to play best of 5 sets at Grand Slams or best of 3 sets?

  • Continue to play best of 5 sets.

    Votes: 94 94.0%
  • Reduce to best of 3 sets like the women.

    Votes: 6 6.0%

  • Total voters
    100
  • Poll closed .
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Not open for further replies.

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
We do need to do more to protect player health. Eliminating the potential of playing 1-2 extra sets per match at four tournaments per year is not the answer.

I wonder how many total "extra sets" per year top 10 players play. I bet it's 6-8.
Yeah, we need to do more to protect health so that they can play Grand Slams

This is like treating a person with a broken leg by shooting him in the head. Sure the leg ain't bothering him anymore but he's also pretty dead
 
I want to hear the opinion of Borg, Laver and McEnroe on this.

They seem very eager to be in the center of the events when they have to do some cheap marketing or stir the things a bit for a bit of attention.

Let's see how they react when the future of the tour is questioned in such an absurd manner.

:cool:
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Just stating the two are linked due to timing. Serena says men should advocate for equal pay while on the same exact day there is an article about BJK saying men should play BO3. In the Serena thread I believe OP stated that they saw it on TV. There's also an article on it today as well. Must be linked IMO. BJK felt like she had to say something since Serena did. Atleast that's the way I'm perceiving it.
 

BorgCash

Legend
Yeah, we need to do more to protect health so that they can play Grand Slams

This is like treating a person with a broken leg by shooting him in the head. Sure the leg ain't bothering him anymore but he's also pretty dead

In this case, to protect health, we need to eliminate some tournaments. But it's a case of money, and when there is money nobody from officials care of player's health.
 

Red Rick

Bionic Poster
In this case, to protect health, we need to eliminate some tournaments. But it's a case of money, and when there is money nobody from officials care of player's health.
We need to ditch other tournaments than Slams, if anything. I want my 4 Slams, I don't want 13 ATP 1000s.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
We do need to do more to protect player health. Eliminating the potential of playing 1-2 extra sets per match at four tournaments per year is not the answer.

I wonder how many total "extra sets" per year top 10 players play. I bet it's 6-8.

It may be that a single especially grueling match is more of a health risk than the cumulative impact of a half-dozen or so somewhat longer matches. In fact, I've seen a lot of online tennis forum commentary speculating that the 2017 French Open semifinal between Murray and Wawrinka ended up physically destroying both players! I don't see how anyone who acknowledges such a disaster as a potential outcome of an overly long match could simultaneously assert, "But we must never even consider retreating from the three-out-of-five standard!" Well, maybe we should at least consider it. :)
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
I looked up another source for the interview. You can't make this up.

"Personally, I don't want the men playing five sets anymore. I think it takes too much out of them," King said at a WTA Finals event timed to coincide with International Women's Day.

"Like one time the players played in the Australian Open final. It took six hours. They could hardly walk off the court. I guarantee you that it took a year off their careers."

She guarantees it guys. Just take her word for it. Rofl.

She apparently wants to combine the ATP and WTA tours. Yeah, let's let the WTA ride the coattails of the ATP even more.

King said team tennis, where men's and women's events are played consecutively with cumulative scoring, is a better way.

http://www.independent.com.mt/artic...lay-3-setters-at-major-tournaments-6736185942
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
Just stating the two are linked due to timing. Serena says men should advocate for equal pay while on the same exact day there is an article about BJK saying men should play BO3. In the Serena thread I believe OP stated that they saw it on TV. There's also an article on it today as well. Must be linked IMO. BJK felt like she had to say something since Serena did. Atleast that's the way I'm perceiving it.
Well duh, it's the international women's day, and as you can see in the article, BJK was indeed touching upon issues concerning the women, most likely in response to questions she was posed by journalists — so this is indeed the link why the BBC chose to publish this precisely today. The piece isn't written or published by King herself, so she probably had little to do with it in that sense.

There's a fair stretch from this to suggesting that she only argues this because she thinks the men playing BO5 makes the women look bad. That may be her underlying motivation, but there's certainly no evidence of it in the text as far as I can see, so the men who are vehemently insisting that this is the case are probably saying more about themselves than they are about King.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
I looked up another source for the interview. You can't make this up.

"Personally, I don't want the men playing five sets anymore. I think it takes too much out of them," King said at a WTA Finals event timed to coincide with International Women's Day.

Well I'll be damned, the cabal is real

conspiracy-keanu-original-expression.jpg
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
Well duh, it's the international women's day, and as you can see in the article, BJK was indeed touching upon issues concerning the women, most likely in response to questions she was posed by journalists — so this is indeed the link why the BBC chose to publish this precisely today. The piece isn't written or published by King herself, so she probably had little to do with it in that sense.

There's a fair stretch from this to suggesting that she only argues this because she thinks the men playing BO5 makes the women look bad. That may be her underlying motivation, but there's certainly no evidence of it in the text as far as I can see, so the men who are vehemently insisting that this is the case are probably saying more about themselves than they are about King.

If you can't connect the dots and recognize such a transparent motivation for saying something, that isn't my problem. You apparently don't understand people very well.

As I said in my above post, she even wants to combine the men's and women's tours. She wants to eliminate any difference between them.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Well duh, it's the international women's day, and as you can see in the article, BJK was indeed touching upon issues concerning the women, most likely in response to questions she was posed by journalists — so this is indeed the link why the BBC chose to publish this precisely today. The piece isn't written or published by King herself, so she probably had little to do with it in that sense.

There's a fair stretch from this to suggesting that she only argues this because she thinks the men playing BO5 makes the women look bad. That may be her underlying motivation, but there's certainly no evidence of it in the text as far as I can see, so the men who are vehemently insisting that this is the case are probably saying more about themselves than they are about King.
So anyone that insinuates that women are being insecure are the ones that are being insecure??o_O

Why does there have to be a day dedicated to it? If women want equality, then there shouldn't holidays celebrating the total opposite. Men know that women have a voice for godsakes. No need for a reminder around every corner. It's 2018.
 

Sysyphus

Talk Tennis Guru
So anyone that insinuates that women are being insecure are the ones that are being insecure??o_O

Who said this? Where?
Why does there have to be a day dedicated to it? If women want equality, then there shouldn't holidays celebrating the total opposite. Men know that women have a voice for godsakes. No need for a reminder around every corner. It's 2018.

yes, not like there is any injustice against women any place in the entire WORLD that's worth putting the spotlight on, hue hue
 

Standaa

G.O.A.T.
Why can’t women play Bo5 in GS finals at the very least?

It’s not that long ago when men had to play the Bo5 format even at M1000s...
 

George Turner

Hall of Fame
Why can’t women play Bo5 in GS finals at the very least?

It’s not that long ago when men had to play the Bo5 format even at M1000s...

Gosh no. There's so many lopsided matches on the womens tour, BO5 would make it worse. Remember when Bouchard reached a Wimbledon final? :eek:

I actually said somewhere else the first couple of rounds could be reduced to best of three. The first couple of rounds are quite boring anyway, the sooner a Nadal vs Young match is over with the better. Would produce more upsets aswell.

Anyway, i'm going to go read some more BJK views on equality. Such a fascinating topic.
 

scotus

G.O.A.T.
As I said in my above post, she even wants to combine the men's and women's tours. She wants to eliminate any difference between them.

I would like to see a tournament like this once in my life.

For example, first round match: Serena Williams vs Dr Ivo.

Equal prize money is built into the system.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
This is Billie Jean King's vision for the future of professional tennis:

World TeamTennis (WTT) is a mixed-gender professional tennis league played with a team format in the United States, which was founded in 1973.

The WTT was organized and started with Billie Jean King securing the professional tennis players on the women's side. Dr. Bloom, along with Wilt Chamberlain and Arthur Ashe, secured the professional players on the men's side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_TeamTennis

She's totally just looking out for the health of ATP players guys. Has nothing to do with wanting to eliminate the differences between the men's and women's tours.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
I would like to see a tournament like this once in my life.

For example, first round match: Serena Williams vs Dr Ivo.

Equal prize money is built into the system.

Feel free to watch a World Team Tennis event then. God knows they probably need the fans. I don't think a team format belongs in tennis. Mixed gender or not.
 

Bobby Jr

G.O.A.T.
Don't believe that women really want to play five set matches. Like to see a poll of all the WTA players. A lot of them are probably texting each other today in disagreement.
Most of them would be mortified at the prospect. The average fitness level of female players (even in a relative sense only) is far lower than it is for men. There is also the other factor that because woman play generally less effective tennis (less able to win points with winners) they would do comparatively more running which would make it even harder for them to get through 7 5-set matches at majors.
 

Standaa

G.O.A.T.
Gosh no. There's so many lopsided matches on the womens tour, BO5 would make it worse. Remember when Bouchard reached a Wimbledon final? :eek:

I actually said somewhere else the first couple of rounds could be reduced to best of three. The first couple of rounds are quite boring anyway, the sooner a Nadal vs Young match is over with the better. Would produce more upsets aswell.

Anyway, i'm going to go read some more BJK views on equality. Such a fascinating topic.

It could produce Bo5 classics that are lacking on women’s tour. Men’s tour is very famous for those too, besides many other things. It would take 4 matches in a whole year where they’d have to play Bo5, and some of them brag about being able to do so in all rounds, so I don’t think they would collapse during a 5th set. Men have to work on their fitness too to be able to handle longer matches, but women could do it. And women’s tennis could gain more attention if they play 5 sets thrilles.
 
This is Billie Jean King's vision for the future of professional tennis:

World TeamTennis (WTT) is a mixed-gender professional tennis league played with a team format in the United States, which was founded in 1973.

The WTT was organized and started with Billie Jean King securing the professional tennis players on the women's side. Dr. Bloom, along with Wilt Chamberlain and Arthur Ashe, secured the professional players on the men's side.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_TeamTennis

She's totally just looking out for the health of ATP players guys. Has nothing to do with wanting to eliminate the differences between the men's and women's tours.

Ah, the old girl just cannot let her twisted dreams go.

She figured she can achieve whatever she wants, the hell with the sport.

:cool:
 
I say leave it as it is - there's an argument for saying women should play best of 5 in terms of earning their money, but I don't think I want to see a best of 5 women's match enough to justify the argument.
 

Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I think you could argue for men going over to best of 3 in the first 3 rounds or so at some point. That decreases the wear and tear and increases the upset risk. It also makes the matches involving 'cannon fodder' players shorter.
I wouldn't want to miss out on Bo5 completely, but I wouldn't mind the initial rounds being a wee bit quicker every now and again. And imagine how the non fanatic fans must be feeling then...

I have often made the argument that you could have BO3 for both in the first four rounds or up to QF and BO5 for both in the business end of slams. Of course, the purists have always shot down this argument and I do understand that it will no longer be the same in terms of comparing with earlier men's slams. But earlier there was no equal prize money either. It is not fair to the men to not have parity in the format. Doesn't happen in most other games, equal pay or no equal pay.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
I have often made the argument that you could have BO3 for both in the first four rounds or up to QF and BO5 for both in the business end of slams. Of course, the purists have always shot down this argument and I do understand that it will no longer be the same in terms of comparing with earlier men's slams. But earlier there was no equal prize money either. It is not fair to the men to not have parity in the format. Doesn't happen in most other games, equal pay or no equal pay.

I'm not a purist at all. I think hawkeye should make all line calls.

But your proposition would have potentially severe consequences such that players with poor stamina could make it through the early rounds only to bounce out as soon as it turns from Bo3 to Bo5. People like Alexander Zverev.

This isn't like the NBA in which each match is the same duration whether the playoff series is Bo5 or Bo7. Every match in a tennis tournament needs to be the same. I never liked the Bo5 finals for that reason and I'm glad the ATP changed it.
 
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scotus

G.O.A.T.
Feel free to watch a World Team Tennis event then. God knows they probably need the fans. I don't think a team format belongs in tennis. Mixed gender or not.

WTT does not have male vs female matches, except for mixed doubles.

I am talking about a real tournament where players can duke it out regardless of gender.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
WTT does not have male vs female matches, except for mixed doubles.

I am talking about a real tournament where players can duke it out regardless of gender.

My bad. I misread the post I responded to. In that case, I agree. It would be funny, but I wouldn't want to see it more than once.

There have been a couple cases of similar things happening in other sports. Female players who thought they were too good for women's leagues. Sorenstam in golf and Wickenheiser in hockey. Didn't work out for either of them IIRC.

If it did happen, I would want the male players to go all out. No mercy. Like when the kids from South Park played the Detroit Red Wings in an NHL match.

 
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scotus

G.O.A.T.
My bad. I misread the post I responded to. In that case, I agree. It would be funny, but I wouldn't want to see it more than once.

There have been a couple cases of similar things happening in other sports. Female players who thought they were too good for women's leagues. Sorenstam in golf and Wickenheiser in hockey. Didn't work out for either of them IIRC.

No problem!
 

Thundergod

Hall of Fame
I actually said somewhere else the first couple of rounds could be reduced to best of three. The first couple of rounds are quite boring anyway, the sooner a Nadal vs Young match is over with the better. Would produce more upsets aswell.
The only problem I have with that is that you are under the assumption that the top 10 or so never get knocked out in the first 3 rounds. Outside of the Big 4, this is usually not the case and in a few years, they won't be here.

The Big 4 skew a lot of stats.
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
This is a sport, it's athletic.. stop trying to make the sport a job in the park.
Hm? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I am pro five setters. But Nadal, Murray, Novak, Stan and numerous other players are injured. And in any case, the sport can and should always do things like review the calendar, make surfaces easier on the body, invest in physical therapy, etc. It is in the interest of the sport, and its athletes.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
The only problem I have with that is that you are under the assumption that the top 10 or so never get knocked out in the first 3 rounds. Outside of the Big 4, this is usually not the case and in a few years, they won't be here.

The Big 4 skew a lot of stats.

Yeah. Berdych lost a 1st round match in a slam pretty much every year of his prime. And he was one of the most consistent players outside of the Big 4.

2010 - Lost to Llodra 1R USO
2011 - Lost to Robert 1R RG (after going up 2 sets)
2012 - Lost to Gulbis 1R Wimbledon
2013 - Lost to Monfils 1R RG
 

FHtennisman

Professional
I think you could argue for men going over to best of 3 in the first 3 rounds or so at some point. That decreases the wear and tear and increases the upset risk. It also makes the matches involving 'cannon fodder' players shorter.
I wouldn't want to miss out on Bo5 completely, but I wouldn't mind the initial rounds being a wee bit quicker every now and again. And imagine how the non fanatic fans must be feeling then...

However, with the slam seedings going back to top 16 only from 2019 that increases the chances of more competitive matches in the earlier rounds - so the 'cannon fodder' element of journeyman being dismantled by ease may reduce. Draws will also undoubtedly become harder for top players, one particular case in point is that for the AO 17 draw, had 16 seeds only existed then Federer could've potentially had an early round match with a Murray/Novak/Nadal type player.
 
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Dolgopolov85

G.O.A.T.
I'm not a purist at all. I think hawkeye should make all line calls.

But your proposition would have potentially severe consequences such that players with poor stamina could make it through the early rounds only to bounce out as soon as it turns from Bo3 to Bo5. People like Alexander Zverev.

This isn't like the NBA in which each match is the same duration whether the playoff series is Bo5 or Bo7. Every match in a tennis tournament needs to be the same. I never liked the Bo5 finals for that reason and I'm glad the ATP changed it.
Fine then make it BO3 all the way through. I have no problem. I am only proposing BO5 for the later stages as a compromise solution.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Almost everyone thinks that men's matches are taking too long, even if they want them to stay at BO5, so her opinion is not that 'out there'.

I looked up another source for the interview. You can't make this up.

"Personally, I don't want the men playing five sets anymore. I think it takes too much out of them," King said at a WTA Finals event timed to coincide with International Women's Day.

"Like one time the players played in the Australian Open final. It took six hours. They could hardly walk off the court. I guarantee you that it took a year off their careers."

http://www.independent.com.mt/artic...lay-3-setters-at-major-tournaments-6736185942
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
Almost everyone thinks that men's matches are taking too long, even if they want them to stay at BO5, so her opinion is not that 'out there'.
The problem is more that she thinks anyone wants to hear her opinion on the matter.
 

mental midget

Hall of Fame
I looked up another source for the interview. You can't make this up.

"Personally, I don't want the men playing five sets anymore. I think it takes too much out of them," King said at a WTA Finals event timed to coincide with International Women's Day.

"Like one time the players played in the Australian Open final. It took six hours. They could hardly walk off the court. I guarantee you that it took a year off their careers."

She guarantees it guys. Just take her word for it. Rofl.

She apparently wants to combine the ATP and WTA tours. Yeah, let's let the WTA ride the coattails of the ATP even more.

King said team tennis, where men's and women's events are played consecutively with cumulative scoring, is a better way.

http://www.independent.com.mt/artic...lay-3-setters-at-major-tournaments-6736185942

then again, look at novak, andy, stan now...she might have a point. no question the insane level of grindatude those guys reached was an unsustainable proposition.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Once they reduce seedings back to 16, we'll see more fifth set, no advantage matches in the first week ... and tired players by the second week.
 
D

Deleted member 742196

Guest
Well duh, it's the international women's day, and as you can see in the article, BJK was indeed touching upon issues concerning the women, most likely in response to questions she was posed by journalists — so this is indeed the link why the BBC chose to publish this precisely today. The piece isn't written or published by King herself, so she probably had little to do with it in that sense.

There's a fair stretch from this to suggesting that she only argues this because she thinks the men playing BO5 makes the women look bad. That may be her underlying motivation, but there's certainly no evidence of it in the text as far as I can see, so the men who are vehemently insisting that this is the case are probably saying more about themselves than they are about King.


Shoot first, ask questions later.

Live the American dream!
 
Many people forget (or did not know in the first place) that many men's U.S. Open singles matches were two-out-of-three in the years 1975-78. In fact, if you count by the number of matches, these tournaments were mostly 2/3.
So were the AO and FO in 1973-1975.
 
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WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
Almost everyone thinks that men's matches are taking too long, even if they want them to stay at BO5, so her opinion is not that 'out there'.

I have rarely heard that complaint really. I have heard more of the opposite. That there should be more best of 5 matches outside of slams. IE Masters and WTF finals.

The problem with excessive match time in some matches has more to do with time wasting between points than anything. Like in the 2012 AO final.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The slow courts/long matches complaint is widespread even if you haven't heard of it. Wasting time between points increases as the matches get longer.

I have rarely heard that complaint really. I have heard more of the opposite. That there should be more best of 5 matches outside of slams. IE Masters and WTF finals.

The problem with excessive match time in some matches has more to do with time wasting between points than anything. Like in the 2012 AO final.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I wouldn't go that far. I have great respect for what she brought to tennis, women's tennis in particular. That being said, we can all disagree with her view about men's matches in Grand Slams. If any change is to be made, make women's semi finals and finals best of 5 in Grand Slams.

Hear, hear!
 
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