Blue clay: What was the problem?

Gary Duane

Gary Duane

Talk Tennis Guru
This is an honest question. Please, no flames.

Does anyone have facts about what it was? What did the color do to the surface? What was this "clay" made of?

Where I live we have clay courts that Chris Evert grew up on. It's not at all the same as red clay. It's more like gritty particles, and it's a different color (not red or blue). I think that when the USO was held on clay it was more like what we had down here.

I only played on red clay once, and it was very different.

Can someone with experience enlarge on this? Facts please.
 
Djokovic and Nadal have mentioned that the blue clay was a very slippery surface and that the depth and high of the topspin effect as powerful. Both players said that they will not return to the tournament in 2013.

2012 Madrid Master was an exciting tournament but the difference in the clay behaviour was not because of the colour, was because of a type of salt that the court workers put on it a few days before the tournament started and that was the reason that changed all the conditions of the standard clay, making it too much sliding and all these facts that some people liked. The salt that they put to preserve the courts crystallized and that was the reason why the game conditions were totally different. The salt was similar to the one that Roland Garros courts use but the conditions in Madrid were so different and the cool weather and water put on the courts helped it to crystallize. If they didn't have that error blue clay would have been exactly like red clay. In fact when Carlos Moya practiced on the courts before leaving Madrid for a trip blue clay was exactly as red clay, but the salt was put on the courts after Moya leave them.

If we only speak in terms of the colour of the clay, I have to say that blue clay was great. I would have loved to see blue clay in Madrid in 2013 and in 2014, but the big players complained and Madrid was forced to change to red clay again. It is a nonsense because the tournament was strange and dangerous but it was not because of the colour, but ATP give in because of the top players pressure. A shame because they know that that salt error would have been fixed for 2013 and that the blue colour was not the problem. Nadal didn't like the conditions but he didn't like the colour as well (he told that red was a more traditional colour and blue was strange to see), something that I don't like about him but I respect. But I think that the whole clay season is in red clay, a tournament in blue clay would be good.

At least they didn't outlaw hot chicks as ballgirls.
 
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My club has blue clay, undercourt watering. All very nice.
I like it and red clay looks odd to me, what you are used to really.
 
Quite the disaster happened.

2012_Madrid_Berdych_Federer.jpg
 
Tennisknowledge99 said:
Djokovic and Nadal have mentioned that the blue clay was a very slippery surface and that the depth and high of the topspin effect as powerful. Both players said that they will not return to the tournament in 2013.

2012 Madrid Master was an exciting tournament but the difference in the clay behaviour was not because of the colour, was because of a type of salt that the court workers put on it a few days before the tournament started and that was the reason that changed all the conditions of the standard clay, making it too much sliding and all these facts that some people liked. The salt that they put to preserve the courts crystallized and that was the reason why the game conditions were totally different. The salt was similar to the one that Roland Garros courts use but the conditions in Madrid were so different and the cool weather and water put on the courts helped it to crystallize. If they didn't have that error blue clay would have been exactly like red clay. In fact when Carlos Moya practiced on the courts before leaving Madrid for a trip blue clay was exactly as red clay, but the salt was put on the courts after Moya leave them.

If we only speak in terms of the colour of the clay, I have to say that blue clay was great. I would have loved to see blue clay in Madrid in 2013 and in 2014, but the big players complained and Madrid was forced to change to red clay again. It is a nonsense because the tournament was strange and dangerous but it was not because of the colour, but ATP give in because of the top players pressure. A shame because they know that that salt error would have been fixed for 2013 and that the blue colour was not the problem. Nadal didn't like the conditions but he didn't like the colour as well (he told that red was a more traditional colour and blue was strange to see), something that I don't like about him but I respect. But I think that the whole clay season is in red clay, a tournament in blue clay would be good.

At least they didn't outlaw hot chicks as ballgirls.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that rather complete explanation.

One more question: what causes the blue color? Is some kind of dye added to the clay?
 
Gary Duane said:
Thank you for that rather complete explanation.

One more question: what causes the blue color? Is some kind of dye added to the clay?
Click to expand...

Tiriac convened a reasearch organization Technological Institute of Optic Colour and Professional Image (AIDO) and conclusively proved that both spectators courtside and those watching at home on LCD and LED television screens had a "higher" and "more favorable" contrast (to spectating, we assume) on blue clay.

I think it is the dye.
 
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tennisaddict said:
Tiriac convened a reasearch organization Technological Institute of Optic Colour and Professional Image (AIDO) and conclusively proved that both spectators courtside and those watching at home on LCD and LED television screens had a "higher" and "more favorable" contrast (to spectating, we assume) on blue clay.
Click to expand...

I could've told Tiriac that blue is a more favourable colour to create a nice contrast between the yellow ball and human skin tone. Where's my phone call Tiriac? I know colour theory too!

Split-Comp-Blue-Yellow-Orange-Red-Orange.jpg
 
tennisaddict said:
Tiriac convened a reasearch organization Technological Institute of Optic Colour and Professional Image (AIDO) and conclusively proved that both spectators courtside and those watching at home on LCD and LED television screens had a "higher" and "more favorable" contrast (to spectating, we assume) on blue clay.

I think it is the dye.
Click to expand...
There is no doubt in my mind that the contrast between yellow balls and orange is not the best (clay is by no means really red).

When you look at matches from the past, on Youtube, sometimes you can't even see the balls.
 
Gary Duane said:
There is no doubt in my mind that the contrast between yellow balls and orange is not the best (clay is by no means really red).

When you look at matches from the past, on Youtube, sometimes you can't even see the balls.
Click to expand...

But isn't grass even worse? Why are people complaining about the dark orange (in most tournaments) color of clay but not the light green color of grass. I wouldn't mind if they used blue clay at one tournament but I'd hate it if they would change it everywhere. And they should only use blue clay if it would not change the surface in any way except for the color of the court.
 
The main problem was that Nadalovic whined because it was not what they were used to.

It was a win for tennis, but unfortunately the New Establishment Of Grinding disagreed.

:(
 
Without the blue clay, Federer never regains #1 in 2012.

But Federer actually needed pain killers in the final. Always wondered if that was why it flared up again during Wimbledon.
 
merwy said:
But isn't grass even worse? Why are people complaining about the dark orange (in most tournaments) color of clay but not the light green color of grass. I wouldn't mind if they used blue clay at one tournament but I'd hate it if they would change it everywhere. And they should only use blue clay if it would not change the surface in any way except for the color of the court.
Click to expand...
Six to one, half dozen to the other. Old matches on grass are also horrible for seeing the ball.

It's pretty obvious how much easier it is on the eye when the courts are something like a dark blue.

It's obvious to me that blue clay would be visually superior. So if the color did not change the clay, the only other issue would be whatever chemical they use to change the color.

New flash: Tennis players are not the brightest people on the planet.
 
Ace of Aces said:
Wouldn't using a differently colored ball be easier than changing the court?
Click to expand...

http://www.itftennis.com/media/107013/107013.pdf

ITF rules of tennis mandates that tennis balls must be either white or yellow. Take a look at Appendix I in the link above. Personally my preferred ball color is optic orange, particularly when the court or windscreens are green. Optic yellow is great for blue courts. However, many of the blue courts in my area still have green windscreens = not ideal.

Optic yellow is a greenish-yellow. The exact color/hue can vary from one ball manufacturer or model to another. Perhaps an orangish-yellow would still comply and would provide better contrast for green courts but probably not for red clay courts.
 
Gary Duane said:
This is an honest question. Please, no flames.

Does anyone have facts about what it was? What did the color do to the surface? What was this "clay" made of?

Where I live we have clay courts that Chris Evert grew up on. It's not at all the same as red clay. It's more like gritty particles, and it's a different color (not red or blue). I think that when the USO was held on clay it was more like what we had down here.

I only played on red clay once, and it was very different.

Can someone with experience enlarge on this? Facts please.
Click to expand...

Seriously... Couldn't you take some time to research the history of this...
 
Gary Duane said:
Six to one, half dozen to the other. Old matches on grass are also horrible for seeing the ball.

It's pretty obvious how much easier it is on the eye when the courts are something like a dark blue.

It's obvious to me that blue clay would be visually superior. So if the color did not change the clay, the only other issue would be whatever chemical they use to change the color.

New flash: Tennis players are not the brightest people on the planet.
Click to expand...

Newsflash.... Some are quite bright. But, they don't claim to be bright outside their area of expertise.
 
Oddly enough the women play on a greater variety of surfaces. Green clay in Charleston, and they still have a carpet tournament in quebec. Also they play an indoor red clay tournament in Stuttgart.
 
As I recall, the court played fast and slippery , like Wimbledon thr first week. As such it was more conducive to attacking tennis rather than grinding tennis. This is why Nadal complained that it was useless as a warmup for the fO, and on that point I think he was right. All that high handed whining and threatening however I took issue with.

The state of the conditions was evidenced by the players who made it deep into the tournament on the men's side: Tsonga, Berdych, Delpo and Fed. 3 of the 4 big men with attacking style games. There was alot of net play that tournament.

Fed with his early match with Raonic admitted he needed to abandon his ground game and net rush more , which secured him victory.

So the issue was a clay court that played like the first week of old wimbledon when the court is super slick.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
http://www.itftennis.com/media/107013/107013.pdf

ITF rules of tennis mandates that tennis balls must be either white or yellow. Take a look at Appendix I in the link above. Personally my preferred ball color is optic orange, particularly when the court or windscreens are green. Optic yellow is great for blue courts. However, many of the blue courts in my area still have green windscreens = not ideal.

Optic yellow is a greenish-yellow. The exact color/hue can vary from one ball manufacturer or model to another. Perhaps an orangish-yellow would still comply and would provide better contrast for green courts but probably not for red clay courts.
Click to expand...

but ITF rules can be changed. How in the world is it easier to change the court color than the ball color?
they could use fluorescent green balls or Blue on clay... or hire the same company Tiriac hired to tell them which color works best.
also if it is the salt and altitude how come this problem was resolved when they reverted to red clay? did Madrid go down a few hundred meters?
 
bullfan said:
Seriously... Couldn't you take some time to research the history of this...
Click to expand...
I can't find information about where the color comes from. The answers I got here are considerably better than what I found elsewhere.

I still can't find info on dye, or what is added to the clay to give it it's blue color.

Do you have an answer? If so, where did you find it?
 
I asked:

"I still can't find info on dye, or what is added to the clay to give it it's blue color.

Do you have an answer? If so, where did you find it?"

Still waiting for an answer...
 
Not everybody thought the blue clay was better for viewing. The major sponsor's signature colour was blue and Tiriac tried to match the clay to the sponsor's ads. One of the problems was all the cladding around the stadium was then the same colour as the court and it looked like the players were playing on the bottom of the ocean. It was quite disorienting and a great many viewers didn't like it at all.
 
vernonbc said:
Not everybody thought the blue clay was better for viewing. The major sponsor's signature colour was blue and Tiriac tried to match the clay to the sponsor's ads. One of the problems was all the cladding around the stadium was then the same colour as the court and it looked like the players were playing on the bottom of the ocean. It was quite disorienting and a great many viewers didn't like it at all.
Click to expand...

Why does it have to be "everybody"?

The neon yellow on blue provided excellent contrast and the ocean water effect was also stunning.
 
Both Nadal and Djokovic complained and said they would not play in 2013 if they had to play on the same surface.
To be fair we saw lots of players slipping on the clay that week (not only Nadal and Djokovic, i remember Del Potro, Tipsarevic tripping).
As a spectator it was great to watch on TV.
 
vernonbc said:
Not everybody thought the blue clay was better for viewing. The major sponsor's signature colour was blue and Tiriac tried to match the clay to the sponsor's ads. One of the problems was all the cladding around the stadium was then the same colour as the court and it looked like the players were playing on the bottom of the ocean. It was quite disorienting and a great many viewers didn't like it at all.
Click to expand...

By "a great many viewers" you mean you personally.
 
tipsa...don'tlikehim! said:
Both Nadal and Djokovic complained and said they would not play in 2013 if they had to play on the same surface.
To be fair we saw lots of players slipping on the clay that week (not only Nadal and Djokovic, i remember Del Potro, Tipsarevic tripping).
As a spectator it was great to watch on TV.
Click to expand...

The slipping "issue" is bogus.

The grass is also slippery but nobody from the Divas threatens to boycott Wimbledon .

8-)
 
Yes, a typical grass court can be slippery a typical clay court isn't. When players aren't expecting it, it can cause more injuries hence them boycotting the tourney. I wish they hadn't done that as I would have loved to see them have another chance to correct it, it was beautiful looking imo.
 
mule250 said:
Yes, a typical grass court can be slippery a typical clay court isn't. When players aren't expecting it, it can cause more injuries hence them boycotting the tourney. I wish they hadn't done that as I would have loved to see them have another chance to correct it, it was beautiful looking imo.
Click to expand...

They were saying that they will boycott the tourney the NEXT year.

Hardly the conditions would have surprised them twice for the same thing.
 
I don't understand why/what you're arguing. The people who made the court screwed it up and it has been documented how. If they had been given another opportunity I assume it would have played like a normal clay court in 2013. It's a shame they were so quick to boycott it.
 
way too much complaining about the way how different evens play differently, no duhh...
the blue clay was a great idea for the viewing public
Indian wells apparently has "slowest hard courts", but "the balls are too fast",,, so now they provably want to boycott the balls???
c’mon man.. learn to adjust to different events, if they can’t or don’t want to, move aside and let others adjust to it
I’m sure none of the young Australian players this year are going to pass up on the chance to win that tournament....
 
mule250 said:
I don't understand why/what you're arguing. The people who made the court screwed it up and it has been documented how. If they had been given another opportunity I assume it would have played like a normal clay court in 2013. It's a shame they were so quick to boycott it.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why people (in this case you specifically) are willing to protect people (players) that have put themselves so much higher than the sport that they play that they threaten to damage its reputation by boycotting a perfectly normal event.

Even if the blue clay was not ment to be the way it was it is not like the players were injuring themselves left and right for such whining to e warranted.

As mentioned by others, Monte Carlo was much much worse in that regard (two players have actually injured themselves there, because of the court condition), but we didn't hear threats from the same players (that threatened to boycott Madrid) to boycott the event the next year should such a thing happen again. I can only imagine why :rolleyes:

The truth is that Nadal and Djokovic put themselves above the rest and the sport and a good opportunity for a change for the better was missed.

The intention behind the blue clay was clear and the idea was good. Having in mind that it was the first attemt for something like that I think that it received a lot of unnecessary flack form players, who, according to their own fanbases were "rebels", "new wave" and opposed to the classical approach and style. It turns out that the classical approach can adapt better and is not so much prone to changing conditions as the so called unconventional, new etc.
 
mule250 said:
I don't understand why/what you're arguing. The people who made the court screwed it up and it has been documented how. If they had been given another opportunity I assume it would have played like a normal clay court in 2013. It's a shame they were so quick to boycott it.
Click to expand...

You hit it on the head. If given time, it would have played like red clay and been much better for TV viewing.

2 players basically killed a good idea because they are short sighted and have no vision for the game.
 
Tennis_Hands said:
I don't understand why people (in this case you specifically) are willing to protect people (players) that have put themselves so much higher than the sport that they play that they threaten to damage its reputation by boycotting a perfectly normal event.

Even if the blue clay was not ment to be the way it was it is not like the players were injuring themselves left and right for such whining to e warranted.

As mentioned by others, Monte Carlo was much much worse in that regard (two players have actually injured themselves there, because of the court condition), but we didn't hear threats from the same players (that threatened to boycott Madrid) to boycott the event the next year should such a thing happen again. I can only imagine why :rolleyes:

The truth is that Nadal and Djokovic put themselves above the rest and the sport and a good opportunity for a change for the better was missed.

The intention behind the blue clay was clear and the idea was good. Having in mind that it was the first attemt for something like that I think that it received a lot of unnecessary flack form players, who, according to their own fanbases were "rebels", "new wave" and opposed to the classical approach and style. It turns out that the classical approach can adapt better and is not so much prone to changing conditions as the so called unconventional, new etc.
Click to expand...

I'm actually not arguing against you, it annoys me that they could have so much pull that they can just change an event so easily. If they hadn't moaned so much we fans would most likely get to see this beautiful court every year! Also tournaments would be more willing to try things such as this in the future, I assume would be way too scared to try anything new now, at least until these guys aren't at the top anymore.
 
Didnt federer also complain about HAWKEYE initially?! Now look at it. Everyone is using it And it works. He had to bite his thong and now the sport is better for it.. BRING BACK THE BLUE CLAY..... all caps yall. im serious. Haha..
 
tennisaddict said:
Tiriac convened a reasearch organization Technological Institute of Optic Colour and Professional Image (AIDO) and conclusively proved that both spectators courtside and those watching at home on LCD and LED television screens had a "higher" and "more favorable" contrast (to spectating, we assume) on blue clay.

I think it is the dye.
Click to expand...

That light blue is the colour of one of the tournament's main sponsors is surely just a happy coincidence.
 
Even if some players didn't like, why did they have to whine so much? They are pros and shouldn't complain. It really did make them look like children.
 
tipsa...don'tlikehim! said:
Both Nadal and Djokovic complained and said they would not play in 2013 if they had to play on the same surface.
To be fair we saw lots of players slipping on the clay that week (not only Nadal and Djokovic, i remember Del Potro, Tipsarevic tripping).
Click to expand...

But no one was seriously injured on the blue clay. Whereas at the Monte Carlo Masters in the same year , a few weeks before Madrid, there were players who got injured because of slipping on court.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/te...lien-Benneteau-retires-with-ankle-injury.html

"Coming after Juan Monaco’s identical injury on Tuesday, Benneteau’s sprain will add to concern that the courts here are not giving the players the right amount of grip. Murray described them as “slippery” in a post-match interview, and could earlier be heard telling the chair umpire that “there are holes in the court, holes everywhere”.

And yet, none of the players who whined about blue clay whined here , probably because they were still winning.
 
TennisCJC said:
You hit it on the head. If given time, it would have played like red clay and been much better for TV viewing.

2 players basically killed a good idea because they are short sighted and have no vision for the game.
Click to expand...

Tennis must protect the clay, no? ;)
 
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