Borg, Connors, McEnroe, had all 4 slams been held in todays value?

Borg had some fine wins on grass before 1974. I recall that he beat Ashe at Forest Hills in 1973 (then losing to Pilic). He did well at Wim 1973 (the boycott Wim) losing to Taylor. In 1974 he was a bit tired going into Wim and Forest Hills, and as later had problems with lefthanders (El Shafei). In 1974 , he won 2 minor grass titles in Australia and NZ.

Good point Urban. By 1974, Borg was already quite good on grass courts, and very dangerous for any player, but he was a "work in progress" and of course, only 18 years of age. So, he was not nearly as strong as he was in later years. So, in 1974, he was very, very good already, but not yet a great, very formidable player on that surface. Would you agree?
 
I think it's absurd to say that Borg would have won the tournaments he didn't play ! Who knows ? Tennis is not a science.
I agree about the who knows part. Of course, the answer is no one knows (except those living in that alternative universe where it did actually happen).

But IMO it's not absurd, it is interesting and fun.
 
It would have been fun to see Borg, Connors, and McEnroe down under playing the AO. No question about it.Of course, it's not a given that any one of them would have taken titles there, but I wonder how the dynamics would have been different had they all done so. As Hoodjem noted, it's fun to think about. We did see everyone at Wimbledon though didn't we? I also wonder about how that would have impacted the WCT and the Masters (or Masters "Cup"). Would Lamar Hunt's WCT tour finals have been nearly as big and lucrative? Would we have had those big events at Madison Square Garden in the early part of year (79-81 for example)? The AO, previously held around the Christmas holidays, was having plenty of issues in the late 1970's. I would say that there was not just one reason the top players stayed away for a while. Like so many things in life, it's due to a combination of factors and not just one sole reason.
 
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I have not seen a single convincing source for this. In fact, I recall someone on here saying that the event may have been on a hard court (or carpet) and not on clay.

I think someone actually did track this one down....it was pretty obscure....
 
For decades, I've wondered how Connors would have done at the 1974 FO--if he'd been allowed to play.

Maybe the GS?
 
For decades, I've wondered how Connors would have done at the 1974 FO--if he'd been allowed to play.

Maybe the GS?

I think he would have had a very real shot Hoodjem. I really do. He may have pulled it off. Yet then, and here's where it gets interesting, he would have had to actually play seven rounds on red clay, beat all those clay courters back then (Orantes? Vilas? Borg?). Then, he would have to go in and play Wimbledon soon thereafter. That's a tough turnaround. That's no to say he couldn't have done it, but it would be tougher to win Wimbledon especially given the fact that he'd be coming off a French Open title (lots of energy, physical and mental expended). Having said that, I do think it's possible that he could have pulled it off. Connors was on fire that year.
 
The Federer era is really the first full era that has had all 4 slams mean so much from start to finish. Even in the Sampras / Agassi era for the first part the Australian was not important and many players would skip slams all together. Winning was important sure but nobody had the total Slam count in their minds like they do now. Every kid growing up now has slam count in their minds. It’s possible that both Sampras and Agassi would have more slams if it was at the forefront of their goals from day 1.
 
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The Federer era is really the first full era that has had all 4 slams mean so much from start to finish. Even in the Sampras / Agassi era for the first part the Australian was not important and many players would skip slams all together. Winning was important sure but nobody had the total Slam count in their minds like they do now. Every kid growing up now has slam count in their minds. It’s possible that both Sampras and Agassi would have more slams if it was at the forefront of their goals from day 1.

Good point. Although I'm not sure that either Sampras or Agassi would could have upped their total of majors much (perhaps Agassi could have, given his sporadic career). Agassi did pretty well against Sampras at the AO, so I'm not sure Sampras could have added more. Could he have done better at the FO? Perhaps. Would that have changed his chances at Wimbledon though if he made that effort year in year out? You are absolutely right though about this newfound emphasis solely on counting majors. The first I really heard of such a focus (previously it was more about trying to win the CYGS) was when Sampras tied Borg, and then Emerson with 12 majors won. Once he surpassed Emerson, everyone was saying well, Sampras has won more majors than anyone, he's passed Emerson, Laver, and Borg now since he has 13. That Wimbledon title (his 13th major win) with his father in attendance was when the focus on major count really came to the absolute forefront. Now of course, as you rightly point out, many think it's always been that way. Majors have always been most important, the dynamics have been altered, especially now that all players have four shots each year to win major titles. The ups and downs experienced by the AO really changed things for a while and of course, the Tour was under considerable upheaval just years after the beginning of the Open Era.
 
I agree about the who knows part. Of course, the answer is no one knows (except those living in that alternative universe where it did actually happen).

But IMO it's not absurd, it is interesting and fun.

OK, you're right. I say Vilas would have won AO even if Borg and Connors played !
 
well, it was different in the late '70's/early 80's. Tennis was peaking in terms of popularity, and these guys were treated like celebrities....Bjorn in particular. Plus, they could make a bloody fortune at these "special events" or "invitationals" from appearance fees and prize money. There were a lot of them and many of the ones I recall were very competitive, even if they were not ATP sanctioned (as if that was the be all and end-all). Jimmy did pretty well against Bjorn (and others) at many of these events...I think someone tallied them all up and found the Connors v. Borg rivalry pretty close; the thread is likely hiding someplace here. I liked the 4 man, round robin invitationals..they cut to the chase and you got to see the top guys go at it. Semi on Sat, final on Sunday...boom, boom!:)

yeah, those events fed up the Golden Era and made abig impact.
 
That would have been a pitty¡¡¡ it looks great to have those nice fellas, Mark and Brian at the OZ recordbook¡¡¡ it´s pretty romantic, ain´t it ?
 
For decades, I've wondered how Connors would have done at the 1974 FO--if he'd been allowed to play.

Maybe the GS?

I think he would have had a very real shot Hoodjem. I really do. He may have pulled it off. Yet then, and here's where it gets interesting, he would have had to actually play seven rounds on red clay, beat all those clay courters back then (Orantes? Vilas? Borg?). Then, he would have to go in and play Wimbledon soon thereafter. That's a tough turnaround. That's no to say he couldn't have done it, but it would be tougher to win Wimbledon especially given the fact that he'd be coming off a French Open title (lots of energy, physical and mental expended).
This is one point that's almost never emphasized about Connors possibly winning the Grand Slam in '74: he would have had to pull off the RG/Wimbledon double.

Back then there was only 1 week between the French and Wimbledon. In that week Connors played a grass tune-up at Nottingham and lost to Stan Smith (who Connors didn't have to face at Wimbledon or the USO since he was eliminated in those places by Rosewall and Tanner).

But because Jimmy was banned from the French, he had also gotten to play another grasscourt tune-up in Manchester, during the French, and he won it.

So he got some good grasscourt practice there, and even though he went on to lose to Smith at Nottingham, every little bit of grasscourt practice must help when the transition is so sudden.

We have discussed 1974 before. Although Connors was dominant in the 3 majors, he didn't face a top tenner there, with the exception of 40 year old Rosewall and Tanner. He didn't play the difficult WCT series in spring, but the much lighter Riordan circuit. He also withdrew from some matches and events, when feeling off form, and scratched the year end masters at Kooyong. On grass, players like Newcombe, Ashe, Nastase or Smith would have given him fits, but they were taken out beforehand. Connors for instance lost in a preliminary event to Wimbledon to Smith 0-6,3-6 on British grass. His poor record on red clay in 1973 gives no clear sign of any eventual domination at Roland Garros.
Quite a win by Smith over Connors, with a bagel there. It seems to be a 3-set match, though. The score is given in the NY Times as 4-6, 6-4, 6-0 (same as the ATP site).
 
He beat Borg on red clay in South America straight after the US Open in 1978.

I have not seen a single convincing source for this. In fact, I recall someone on here saying that the event may have been on a hard court (or carpet) and not on clay.
Yes, one poster (pretty sure it was WCT) said it was indoors. His source was an old Tennis Magazine article in which the win was listed as indoors, so presumably on carpet.
 
What strikes me the most about this match, is the much talked about thumb injury of Borg, that is said to have hampered Borg at the USO. That Borg played exhibtions so close after the USO, doesn't indicate exactly a serious injury.
 
What strikes me the most about this match, is the much talked about thumb injury of Borg, that is said to have hampered Borg at the USO. That Borg played exhibtions so close after the USO, doesn't indicate exactly a serious injury.
It's a little difficult not to give credence to that particular injury, though. Newcombe had a look at Borg's hand the morning of the final and described how serious the infection was. As Moose said once, both Newk and Trabert were usually of the school that if-you-play-you-are-healthy. And yet both men agreed as the match wore on that it seriously affected Borg.

It seems that Borg played too many exos and that it was perhaps too high a priority with him (Bergelin said in 1980 that he thought Borg was playing too many). But that may be the simplest explanation for why he chose to play that exo. He only needed to play 2 matches, and they were best of 3 sets. And two or three weeks had passed since he opened the blister.

I do think, as Kiki mentioned in another thread, that there are probably too many "rumors" of Borg injuries. But it seems the thumb injury in '78 has the best witnesses behind it.
 
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OK, blisters can hamper a player severely. When Kramer lost to Drobny at the Wim 1946, he had many blisters on his playing hand. He himself never used that as an excuse. I must say, generally i am not a friend for those later excuses. How many players had hidden injuries or problems going into a major final. Becker wrote later, that he took too many sleeping pills for his 1990 Wim final vs. Edberg, and woke up only in the third. Peter Graf told people that Steffi had broken a leg, in the Wim final vs. Gabi Sabatini. Connors had fractured a finger on his non-playing hand before the Wimbledon tournament 1977. And so on.
What i don't get from Krosero's story above, is, that the Borg camp exposed the blister beforehand. In Boxing circles those injuries are always hidden beforehand, not to give te opponent confidence.
 
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What strikes me the most about this match, is the much talked about thumb injury of Borg, that is said to have hampered Borg at the USO. That Borg played exhibtions so close after the USO, doesn't indicate exactly a serious injury.

I think Bergelin gave many excuses for " imagined" Borg´s problems.He was a great champion, one of the greatest, and ddid not need that harrasment from Bergelin, who was overprotecting Bjorn.A good coach, no doubt, but he acted more like a daddy than as a coach many times.
 
Right. And sometimes it was a bit contraproductive. In the USO tournament in 1979, Bergelin lamented early on about possible night matches, and Borg having problems with his sight. It worked like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and gave people like Tanner confidence and hope, even before they met Borg.
 
What i don't get from Krosero's story above, is, that the Borg camp exposed the blister beforehand. In Boxing circles those injuries are always hidden beforehand, not to give te opponent confidence.
Can't recall how the news got out that Borg was having a problem.

Here's one article on it:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=6562,5349849&dq=borg+gerulaitis+thumb&hl=en

And apparently this was a recurring problem which had forced him to retire from the WCT Finals earlier in the year (defaulted to Gerulaitis):

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...=6529,1394137&dq=borg+has+thumb+trouble&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...g=4629,3523245&dq=borg+gerulaitis+thumb&hl=en
 
Right. And sometimes it was a bit contraproductive. In the USO tournament in 1979, Bergelin lamented early on about possible night matches, and Borg having problems with his sight. It worked like a self-fulfilling prophecy, and gave people like Tanner confidence and hope, even before they met Borg.
This was something that Peter Fleming said even during the tournament, that Bergelin psyched out his own guy.

Sometimes over-protectiveness can definitely be counter-productive.
 
This is one point that's almost never emphasized about Connors possibly winning the Grand Slam in '74: he would have had to pull off the RG/Wimbledon double.

Back then there was only 1 week between the French and Wimbledon. In that week Connors played a grass tune-up at Nottingham and lost to Stan Smith (who Connors didn't have to face at Wimbledon or the USO since he was eliminated in those places by Rosewall and Tanner).
Oh yes. The RG/Wimbers double back then was mighty tough: slow clay to fast grass.

I seem to recall Bergelin in a video saying that Borg practiced as much as possible on some private grass courts, because he was just awful on grass right after the FO.
 
Borg won "Channel Slam", the French Open/Wimbledon double in three years, 1978, 1979, and 1980. He dominated at both Roland Garros and Wimbledon. This is back when the courts at the AELTC were faster too, with a more compressed schedule. It's one of the most impressive feats in Tennis history. Actually winning the French Open is already very taxing and then to make that switch and win as much as Borg did at Wimbledon is stunning. Bergelin was instrumental in helping Borg make the transition. His serve became extremely good. Plus, I think Bergelin helped him immensely in all the technical and physical aspects of his play.
 
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Yes, one poster (pretty sure it was WCT) said it was indoors. His source was an old Tennis Magazine article in which the win was listed as indoors, so presumably on carpet.

Correct. My guess is it was 1979. It was an article about the Connors/Borg rivalry. It listed all their matches .and the surfaces. I remember it,still, because I had been curious, since seeing the result in 1978, as to what surface it was on. Thinking that it may well have been red clay since it was in South America. Anyway, that is what the magazine said.

Regarding Borg's blister, later on he started wearing a wrap, looked sort of like a bandage, that covered part of his right hand. Perhaps blisters were a problem more often than just that match.

I've never argued that the blister hampered Borg that day. I just don't think in the way it's often presented.
First off, the racquet flying out of his hand once is overblown. I have about 3 1978 matches with Connors where he loses the racquet once.

As I watched that match, I thought Borg was hitting the ball as hard as he'd ever hit it against Connors. Newcombe comments on it at some point in the 2nd or early 3rd set. How he has picked up the pace.

Problem was that he didn't have his accuracy. I'll always maintain that the 1st is very good tennis, but about halfway through the 2nd set he just starts making way too many errors. Way more than you'd see Bjorn Borg ordinarily make.

I'm not sure that something like that was news the Borg camp could hide. The guy was taking a shot just to play. I would think that news like that is going to get out whether the Borg camp talks about it or not.
 
I recall that during the CBS telecast in 1978, they mentioned that Borg had received an injection. Of course, this was into the first set. I'm not sure if the news had come out earlier though. I have read an account that mentioned that the injection caused him to loss almost all feeling in the thumb/hand. So less pain, but no feeling.
 
This was something that Peter Fleming said even during the tournament, that Bergelin psyched out his own guy.

Sometimes over-protectiveness can definitely be counter-productive.

Agreed.In any case, lights are the same for anyone, but if you gotta catch the Tanner´s serve is even worse conditions, I can agree on that.

As for Bergelin, if I think he overprotected Borg a bit too much, on the other side, I´m sure he was a guy Borg completely had faith on, and was a main factor on Bjorn´s great success.
 
I think Bergelin gave many excuses for " imagined" Borg´s problems.He was a great champion, one of the greatest, and ddid not need that harrasment from Bergelin, who was overprotecting Bjorn.A good coach, no doubt, but he acted more like a daddy than as a coach many times.

Funny you say that; I remember reading the bio that Bergelin wrote on Borg; despite how impressive Bjorn's career was, it seemed that for every important loss, Bergelin cited some sort of excuse...he was sick, he was hurt, he was tired, etc. It really was embarrassing, I felt.

Re: the 78 USO, Bjorn likely felt well enough to play--and maybe against anyone other than Connors, he might have pulled it off--he certainly had to try. But, having that kind of liability when having to square off against perhaps his toughest opponent, in that opponent's favorite tourney, not a winning proposition.
 
Regarding Borg's blister, later on he started wearing a wrap, looked sort of like a bandage, that covered part of his right hand. Perhaps blisters were a problem more often than just that match.
That might explain why he never had the problem with that thumb again after the two incidents that we know about in '78 (Dallas and USO).

I've never argued that the blister hampered Borg that day. I just don't think in the way it's often presented.
First off, the racquet flying out of his hand once is overblown. I have about 3 1978 matches with Connors where he loses the racquet once.

As I watched that match, I thought Borg was hitting the ball as hard as he'd ever hit it against Connors. Newcombe comments on it at some point in the 2nd or early 3rd set. How he has picked up the pace.
I've seen several matches myself where the racquet flies from his hand. In this match it actually flew twice, which I don't really consider a big deal (though keep in mind we're talking about twice in a very short match). One thing I found more unusual was how Borg kept a ball in his left hand on one or two points, and even played a two-hander that way. By that stage (third set) he seemed uncertain how to play his strokes; and he kept looking at his thumb.

At other times he was trying forehand slices, which you almost never see from him. And at other times, like you, I noticed him trying to go for big winners, which picked up the pace of the match. Perhaps he felt his best chance was hitting quick winners. But Connors of course loved pace. And it wasn't Borg's game to do that.

I think Sports Illustrated, and at least one other source I've seen, commented on the extreme pace of some of the rallies.

Problem was that he didn't have his accuracy. I'll always maintain that the 1st is very good tennis, but about halfway through the 2nd set he just starts making way too many errors. Way more than you'd see Bjorn Borg ordinarily make.
Yes! Borg was credited with more unforced errors than Connors (57 to 47), which I think must be unique in all their matches.

I'm not sure that something like that was news the Borg camp could hide. The guy was taking a shot just to play. I would think that news like that is going to get out whether the Borg camp talks about it or not.
Agreed to that.
 
Re: the 78 USO, Bjorn likely felt well enough to play--and maybe against anyone other than Connors, he might have pulled it off--he certainly had to try.
He did decide he had to try in the USO final, unlike in Dallas where he had the same problem but decided to default.
 
Funny you say that; I remember reading the bio that Bergelin wrote on Borg; despite how impressive Bjorn's career was, it seemed that for every important loss, Bergelin cited some sort of excuse...he was sick, he was hurt, he was tired, etc. It really was embarrassing, I felt.

Re: the 78 USO, Bjorn likely felt well enough to play--and maybe against anyone other than Connors, he might have pulled it off--he certainly had to try. But, having that kind of liability when having to square off against perhaps his toughest opponent, in that opponent's favorite tourney, not a winning proposition.

A lot of Borg's fans are the same way.
 
Oh yes. The RG/Wimbers double back then was mighty tough: slow clay to fast grass.

I seem to recall Bergelin in a video saying that Borg practiced as much as possible on some private grass courts, because he was just awful on grass right after the FO.
Very tough with the conditions back then, and the thing is that Connors would have had only 1 week to prepare for Wimbledon. Borg had two weeks each of the times that he did the RG/W double (78-80), and so did Laver in '69.

Connors got more than 1 week of grasscourt practice because of his RG ban, but even so he had some close calls at Wimbledon. He needed 5 sets to beat Kodes (the defending champion). And he was down 2 sets to 1 to Phil Dent, and had to beat him 10-8 in the fifth.
 
¿Would Connors have won that 74 FO?...I have an idea...think what happened to Jimmy at the 1975 USO F, on american turf ( at home) ...and think, there was a top form Manolo Orantes playing on european turf ( his best turf), the same Orantes that trashed him in straigh sets a year later.
And, If he had a 2-0 sets lead against the greatest CC player of all time....¿Would have he choked again? or ¿would have baggeled Jimmy in the last set ?

A very interesting question that history won´t answer ( in this life)
 
Tough call.

Either Orantes or Borg.

But in 74-75, it appears that Connors was not troubled by Borg--even on clay.

Orantes and Connors met eight times on clay--with Connors winning five.
 
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It really is close.Even considering the 1975 US Open final, the fact is that Connors in 74 had an aura of unvencibility, which he had lost when he arrived in August 1975 to the West Side Country Club.In fact, Newk at Melbourne and , specially, Ashe at the All England had, certainly made a big dent on that terrific self confidence Jimmy showed the whole 1974.
 
Tough call.

Either Orantes or Borg.

But in 74-75, it appears that Connors was not troubled by Borg--even on clay.

Orantes and Connors met eight times on clay--with Connors winning five.

I did see Connors defeat Borg in 1975 at the US Open and I felt Borg was overwhelmed by the Connors power. The deep and powerful Connors approach shots were something Borg couldn't handle, at least in that match.

The think about the French is that it's on slower red clay and you wonder how a young Borg who was born to play on red clay would handle Jimmy Connors in 1974. Borg wasn't the play he was to be but he was good enough handle Orantes in the final of that tournament so he had to be pretty strong at that point. My thought is that it would be close but I probably would give Connors a slight edge.
 
Orantes choked in that final and succumbed to Borg´s attrition game.I think, on red clay, orantes would have it easier to beat Connors than to beat Borg.On fast surface, however, he´d stand no chance...as proven by their " Winner take all Challenge" ( great those matches at vegas)
 
I did see Connors defeat Borg in 1975 at the US Open and I felt Borg was overwhelmed by the Connors power. The deep and powerful Connors approach shots were something Borg couldn't handle, at least in that match.

The think about the French is that it's on slower red clay and you wonder how a young Borg who was born to play on red clay would handle Jimmy Connors in 1974. Borg wasn't the play he was to be but he was good enough handle Orantes in the final of that tournament so he had to be pretty strong at that point. My thought is that it would be close but I probably would give Connors a slight edge.
Connors always did well on the Har-Tru at the USO, but he prepared well for it in the summer, attending the tune-up events on Har-Tru. I'm looking on the ATP site and I see nothing specifically marked as a clay tournament in the months before the '74 French Open.

And without much (or any?) preparation for a Slam on red clay, I don't know. Connors certainly could do damage. But it's hard seeing him winning the whole tournament. He couldn't get past the second round in '72-73. He played Rome in '73, and lost in his first match. He was already a good player, making the QF in 72-73 at W and USO. But there's nothing in his record at that time suggesting a future French Open champion.

I think Urban's point in an old post is a strong one: those flat strokes were not made for slow clay. He knew how to move forward to the net on Har-Tru, but he always struggled from the baseline at the French, in '72-73 and later when he started playing it again. The match reports always mention how he looks uncomfortable on the surface and struggles with errors in long rallies.
 
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I should add something in Connors' favor, that I had forgotten in my post above: he did try to enter Rome in '74, so he wasn't planning to go into RG with no preparation at all. Both the Italian and French tennis federations decided to bar the WTT players so of course he couldn't attend either event.
 
A lot of Borg's fans are the same way.

LOL! I am a fan of both Borg & Connors; regardless, I hate excuses...if you show up on the court to play, then you are committed to whatever happens. Fate, luck, whatever, often interfere! Connors had his share of injuries as well, many of which he played through; sometime it went his way, other times it did not. That's the way it goes.
 
I should add something in Connors' favor, that I had forgotten in my post above: he did try to enter Rome in '74, so he wasn't planning to go into RG with no preparation at all. Both the Italian and French tennis federations decided to bar the WTT players so of course he couldn't attend either event.

That whole period with the ban on WTT players was truly detrimental to the sport...and you have Jimmy & Chris sitting out the FO for several years. What would HER final resume there have looked like without missing a few years in between?

I didn't see Connors play on red clay until his post 1980 years....he did not seem uncomfortable at that point; just that his strokes were not quite as effective as they would be on a faster surface. When it was hot and the clay was dry, he looked damn good; but if it was wet and damp, uggg.....

Given his success on Har Tru, he MIGHT have won an FO in the mid-70s, we'll never know. I think there were other years, like '80 to '84 where his chances to get to the final were quite good, but he fell short in a QF or Semi. That's the way it goes.
 
That might explain why he never had the problem with that thumb again after the two incidents that we know about in '78 (Dallas and USO).

I've seen several matches myself where the racquet flies from his hand. In this match it actually flew twice, which I don't really consider a big deal (though keep in mind we're talking about twice in a very short match). One thing I found more unusual was how Borg kept a ball in his left hand on one or two points, and even played a two-hander that way. By that stage (third set) he seemed uncertain how to play his strokes; and he kept looking at his thumb.

Did it happen twice? I'm curious enough that I might go back and look.
He was definitely holdng his racquet in his left hand more than usual.

Again, my argument has never been that it didn't bother him. It's the way it bothered. As if he could barely hit the ball. He was hitting the ball very hard, but, as the match progressed, less and less of his ordinary precision.

One thing about that match. Borg volleyed very well. He made several excellent volleys. He was at the net more than Connors in that match.

At other times he was trying forehand slices, which you almost never see from him. And at other times, like you, I noticed him trying to go for big winners, which picked up the pace of the match. Perhaps he felt his best chance was hitting quick winners. But Connors of course loved pace. And it wasn't Borg's game to do that.

I just watched it last year, to do the stats, and I don't recall much slicing.
1 or 2 forehand slices is not a lot. The backhand e basically sliced only on the approach.

Connors may have loved pace, but the fact is that when Borg started beating him regularly he started hitting harder with him. The backhand in particular. Whereas earlier he would regularly slice to try not to give Connors pace. Now look at one of their 79-81 matches and see how often Borg slices in the rallies. Basically not at all unless he's really stretched wide or is approaching. Back then, Borg mentioned it several tmes. How all that slicing earlier wasn't really his ame.


Yes! Borg was credited with more unforced errors than Connors (57 to 47), which I think must be unique in all their matches.

And the winners. Look at the ratio of winners between the 2 players in the 76 Open or 77 Wimbledon. 2 very close matches and Connors has way, way more winners. This match was close and Connors doesn't have that many more.

Regarding the French in 74. Connors knew well ahead of time that they had banned him although he appealed it.
I doubt he would have played the French without a tuneup although he did it in 1979. In 1979, he entered at the last minute.

I'm not claiming that he would have won. I just think he had a better chance 74-78 rather than after Borg's ascent.
But even in 74 Borg took him to 3 sets in the US Clay Courts. Their 75 semi was 3 7-5 sets, I believe. He was beating Borg on clay, not dominating him.

And Connors did win North Conway 3 times on American red clay. Not the same thing , I know, but not har tru either. Also, har tru isn't fast in general.
It's faster than Europeon clay. How far did we see players like Ashe advance the 3 years they played it on that surface?

I would have liked to have seen Connors try instead of, I thought, cutting off his nose to spite his face.
At some point in those 5 years I think he would have had a chance. I think better than later on where Borg had just gotten too good.
 
Did it happen twice? I'm curious enough that I might go back and look.

He was definitely holdng his racquet in his left hand more than usual.

Again, my argument has never been that it didn't bother him. It's the way it bothered. As if he could barely hit the ball. He was hitting the ball very hard, but, as the match progressed, less and less of his ordinary precision.

To the bolded part: yes, and I think that’s a very fair way of looking at this particular injury. He certainly could still hit a lot of winners, you’re definitely right about that. I’ll get into that a bit more in my post below as I respond to your points. I hope this is not too long but you’ve raised a few interesting issues about the rivalry, particularly with the stats.

First your question about the racquet flying: in my notes I have it in game 5 of the second set and early in the third set.

One thing about that match. Borg volleyed very well. He made several excellent volleys. He was at the net more than Connors in that match.
Do you have net stats for this match? All I know of are Moose’s stats (Connors leading Borg 14-11 in volley/overhead winners).

Do you know of other hardcourt matches where Borg approached more than Connors? It was not true in their ’81 USO semi, where Borg was mostly staying back. On grass it’s another story altogether, but on hard court Borg generally played from the baseline. (Same was true against McEnroe in 80-81).


Connors may have loved pace, but the fact is that when Borg started beating him regularly he started hitting harder with him. The backhand in particular. Whereas earlier he would regularly slice to try not to give Connors pace. Now look at one of their 79-81 matches and see how often Borg slices in the rallies. Basically not at all unless he's really stretched wide or is approaching. Back then, Borg mentioned it several tmes. How all that slicing earlier wasn't really his ame.
All true, but I think it’s more precise to say that Borg started picking up the pace and playing his normal game against Connors after he started beating him. He started beating Connors in ’77, at Pepsi and Wimbledon: and in both matches he’s still slicing, still drawing errors from Connors with short balls. The Pittsburgh Press talked about that strategy in the Pepsi match; and the New York Times credited Borg with building leads in the Wimbledon final by slowing down the pace.

In early ’78 they met at Pepsi again, and there Borg said he decided to play his normal game – against Bergelin’s advice. Quoted in the Times: "Before the match, I said to myself, 'I'm going to play a little different than before.' Always when I play Connors, I am pushing the ball more and slicing more. I said to myself, 'O.K., I'm really going to play my game and make him run.' This is the first match against him I've played this way. I was very successful."

I think Borg, after beating Connors a couple of times, just felt confident enough to go that route. It was supposed to be a great risk, giving Jimmy pace. And maybe in earlier years it might have been, we’ll never know. But I think as Borg improved overall, and broke the losing streak against Connors, he started feeling confident enough to swing away against Connors, knowing that he had enough game to beat him.

And the winners. Look at the ratio of winners between the 2 players in the 76 Open or 77 Wimbledon. 2 very close matches and Connors has way, way more winners. This match was close and Connors doesn't have that many more.
Very true: it was a blowout for Connors and yet his margin in winners is not that large.

But that was also true in their 81 USO semifinal: Connors had a slight edge in winners, despite losing that match almost as decisively as he won the ’78 match.

And look at their ’78 Wimbledon final: a rout for Borg, yet Connors again has a slight edge in winners. At 79W, Connors is just slightly behind in winners.

So I don’t know exactly what the winners tell us. They do show that Borg was not an invalid in the ’78 match; he could still hit plenty of winners. You’re certainly right about that. Beyond that I don’t know.

But there’s an interesting trend there. As you noted, in the early matches (76 USO, 77 W), Connors has huge leads over Borg in winners. But in ’78-81 the two men usually end up with similar numbers of winners, and typically with Connors slightly ahead.

All the latter matches are after the ’78 Pepsi when Borg said he was starting to hit out more freely, so maybe that helped him stay even with Connors in winners, even when defeated badly at the ’78 USO.

Borg’s early strategy of hitting soft, short balls may have drawn errors from Connors successfully, but Connors didn’t make errors on all of those balls, of course. Sometimes Connors was able to take those short balls and successfully get into net, hitting winners up there. But later Borg hit with more topsin and depth, keeping Connors back.

I’m not committed to that interpretation of the winners stats, but maybe when I get to rewatch these matches I’ll see if it holds up.

Anyway to return to the ’78 USO: the winners were indeed close. What’s surprising – what I think may be unique in all their matches – is that Borg was credited with more unforced errors than Connors.

I think that stat confirms your double observation that Borg could still hit with power but it was his precision that was affected.

I'll have to make the '74 French a separate post.
 
That whole period with the ban on WTT players was truly detrimental to the sport...and you have Jimmy & Chris sitting out the FO for several years. What would HER final resume there have looked like without missing a few years in between?

I didn't see Connors play on red clay until his post 1980 years....he did not seem uncomfortable at that point; just that his strokes were not quite as effective as they would be on a faster surface. When it was hot and the clay was dry, he looked damn good; but if it was wet and damp, uggg.....

Given his success on Har Tru, he MIGHT have won an FO in the mid-70s, we'll never know. I think there were other years, like '80 to '84 where his chances to get to the final were quite good, but he fell short in a QF or Semi. That's the way it goes.

He always found an inspired opponent who played the match of his life, or almost, against him: Pecci in 79, Gerulaitis in ´80, Clerc in ´81, Higueras in ´82 and the unknown Vasselin in 1983.never heard again ( or before) of him, but Connors must still remember that frenchie.
 
He always found an inspired opponent who played the match of his life, or almost, against him: Pecci in 79, Gerulaitis in ´80, Clerc in ´81, Higueras in ´82 and the unknown Vasselin in 1983.never heard again ( or before) of him, but Connors must still remember that frenchie.

Yah, Vasselin in '83 was a total shocker; but I recall Jimmy playing with some sort of wrap on his arm that year. I don't quite recall why. I think he would've had a solid advantage over Noah in the semifinal. Could he have beaten Wilander in the final? Not sure, but it would've been close, I think. Jimmy was still pretty potent in early '83.
 
Regarding the French in 74. Connors knew well ahead of time that they had banned him although he appealed it.
I doubt he would have played the French without a tuneup although he did it in 1979. In 1979, he entered at the last minute.

I'm not claiming that he would have won. I just think he had a better chance 74-78 rather than after Borg's ascent.
But even in 74 Borg took him to 3 sets in the US Clay Courts. Their 75 semi was 3 7-5 sets, I believe. He was beating Borg on clay, not dominating him.

And Connors did win North Conway 3 times on American red clay. Not the same thing , I know, but not har tru either. Also, har tru isn't fast in general.
It's faster than Europeon clay. How far did we see players like Ashe advance the 3 years they played it on that surface?

I would have liked to have seen Connors try instead of, I thought, cutting off his nose to spite his face.
At some point in those 5 years I think he would have had a chance. I think better than later on where Borg had just gotten too good.
To the bold parts: I agree that he had a chance and that his best chance would have been in the mid-70s. But I have strong doubts that he would have done it.

You mention Borg getting too good later, and that’s true – but Connors wasn’t being defeated by Borg when he returned to the French. He lost as you know to Pecci, Gerulaitis and Clerc before reaching Borg. This is not to nitpick – I think it’s a central point in all this. The emphasis is always on how Connors might, or might not, have won the French in imaginary meetings with Borg. And it’s natural enough to think of it that way since Borg won all those titles. But my strongest doubts are about Connors beating all the great clay-courters he might face over the two weeks.

This is the thing, on a given day, perhaps when the court was playing fast, or the opponent gave him pace, he could appear brilliant. Then the next day he’d run into someone good enough to spit the ball back repeatedly and really test his ability to keep hitting winners with his low margin for error. And year after year he encountered someone against whom he couldn’t keep hitting the winners enough to win three sets, which I think can be especially difficult for high-risk players to do on clay.

The North Conway victories on red clay, though impressive, were only best-of-three. I think it’s somewhat similar to what happened in ’84 when McEnroe beat Lendl twice on clay in short matches, including one on red clay: but when forced to win three straight sets at Roland Garros he couldn’t keep up the pace. And suddenly he was caught in a dogfight, getting increasingly tired and making more errors, while the other guy, with great margin for error on his strokes, could keep his errors down even when tired himself.

Which is one reason I think Borg had such a great five-set record. No matter how tired or nervous he was, he had an easy way to keep getting the ball in play, which put the pressure on the other guy to hit winners past him. In a fifth set against Connors at RG, even in ’74-75, I’d take Borg. Jimmy’s best chance would be to put him away early.

Of course he did that to Borg on Har-Tru at the USO, where the matches (most of them) were best-of-five. Obviously Connors has to be counted among the best claycourters of the decade -- based mainly on his Har-Tru performances. And that's the thing: I don’t know why Connors’ performances at the French were never as good as the ones at Forest Hills.

Was it merely the fact that Har-Tru was somewhat faster than red clay? Or maybe growing up in the States he was somewhat more familiar with how to move on Har-Tru? Or he just prepared for the USO better than for the French? Maybe a combination of all these things?

I think you’ve seen a lot of Connors matches so I wondered what your take was on this.

One thing that strikes me about the USO matches is how much Connors is attacking the net. And he’s successful at it. Against Orantes, Borg and Vilas he’s getting into net a lot and is mostly successful up there. That was true even in ’75, when he couldn’t get a set from Orantes but was still getting his points at net.

Some months ago I saw his RG losses to Pecci and Gerulaitis, and I just didn’t see anything like that success at net. Again, I don’t know exactly what you can put that down to. Was red clay slow enough to account for the difference, slow enough just to make life more difficult for anyone who wanted to win points at net? Or maybe Connors didn’t know how to move forward on red clay as well as he did on Har-Tru, because it was a surface he was relatively less familiar with? Or maybe he didn’t put in enough preparation beforehand?

I was most impressed with Pecci, as a better claycourter than Connors. Gerulaitis, too, though not a great claycourter like Borg, had good clearance over the net with his slice backhand; and in crosscourt rallies that shot usually held up better than Connors’ forehand.

In both those matches what struck me was that Connors’ ability to win points was relatively limited: strike the ball in the center of the strings with perfect accuracy and end the point with a winner. No wonder he couldn’t do it for more than two sets. Outlasting his opponents (waiting for an error), was not an option. Hitting big serves like Pecci (or even Vitas, at times), was also not an option. Connors sometimes hit with topspin, but mostly he hit flat, and with less variety than either Pecci or Gerulaitis. Certainly with less safety.

Connors could volley, of course, but even there he had to work very hard; and Pecci for some reason was able to attack the net on the red clay much more efficiently.

So I just see a big difference between Connors at the USO and at RG.

Was that because Connors was already aging by the time he returned to RG? I’m not so sure, because the 1979 French was less than two years after the ’77 USO. And in ’79-80 he was still young, still hanging tough with Borg and McEnroe at W and USO.

In ’82-83, Connors was still good enough actually to win Wimbledon and the USO, yet he reached only the quarterfinals at RG.

McEnroe came closest to winning the French in ’84, when he was not only playing well generally but he’d also decided that he had to play his game and come in all the time. I think if Connors, in the mid-70s, had done something similar, preparing well for the French, taking it seriously, committing to playing his attacking game and ironing out whatever difficulties he might have had on the red clay – that would have been his best shot.

And it’s really too bad he didn’t do that. Seeing him mix it up with Borg, Orantes and Vilas at the French would have been great. And think of the matches it would have produced.
 
I doubt he would have played the French without a tuneup although he did it in 1979. In 1979, he entered at the last minute.
I didn't know that, and it's interesting, because I found a report later in the year that said he was actually scheduled to appear in the AO. He was even seeded first, but he pulled out at the last minute citing an injury.

If he stayed I guess it would have been a Connors-Vilas final.

(According to the ATP site they never met anywhere on grass).
 
Yah, Vasselin in '83 was a total shocker; but I recall Jimmy playing with some sort of wrap on his arm that year. I don't quite recall why. I think he would've had a solid advantage over Noah in the semifinal. Could he have beaten Wilander in the final? Not sure, but it would've been close, I think. Jimmy was still pretty potent in early '83.

Noah was hipermotivated and would have played in front of his crowd.But, I don´t think he ever beat Jimmy Connors in an official match.Did he?
 
I think Gerulaitis best chance to beat Connors would be on slow, red clay, where his amrgin for security was higher than Jimmy and his stamina and fitness were able to hold up.Vitas was , probably, the best american player on red clay, at the end of the 70´s-early 80´s, as he proved with his record (he also beat easily Mac Enroe at the 1980 WCT Invitational at Forest Hills).

Pecci, even being an attacking player, just like Panatta, was a man rgown up on clay, and could mix a looping top spin Fh with penetrating BH sliced shots and a great drop shot.His serve, with a big kick, would bother Jimmy; as a matter of fact, he and Panatta are the only guys to beat Borg on clay, from 1975 to 1981, and both did it on a S&V basis, mixed up with deft touch groundies.


red clay was somewhat slower than US har-tru, this would make a difference at the very slow margin error game of Connors; he had to hit 2-3 more shots on red clay than on har-tru, and the percentages were increasing against him.

¿Would he win a FO in the mid 70´s ? I bet he wouldn´t, but certainly, that slot of time would be his bet shot at the french.
 
Pecci, even being an attacking player, just like Panatta, was a man rgown up on clay, and could mix a looping top spin Fh with penetrating BH sliced shots and a great drop shot.
Another attacking player who grew up on clay was Noah (who I think has one win over Connors on clay; you can check it at the ATP or ITF sites). Pecci could flatten out his strokes, and win points outright that way, which is something that Noah could not do. On the other hand nobody had a better serve than Noah, although you're right that Pecci had a fine serve.

His serve, with a big kick, would bother Jimmy; as a matter of fact, he and Panatta are the only guys to beat Borg on clay, from 1975 to 1981,
In '75 Borg had defeats on clay to a few lower-ranked players, so I guess you mean from '75 afterwards -- but even so you're missing some players. Connors, of course, is one. And Vilas beat him on clay too, in 1980 World Team Cup.
 
Another attacking player who grew up on clay was Noah (who I think has one win over Connors on clay; you can check it at the ATP or ITF sites). Pecci could flatten out his strokes, and win points outright that way, which is something that Noah could not do. On the other hand nobody had a better serve than Noah, although you're right that Pecci had a fine serve.

In '75 Borg had defeats on clay to a few lower-ranked players, so I guess you mean from '75 afterwards -- but even so you're missing some players. Connors, of course, is one. And Vilas beat him on clay too, in 1980 World Team Cup.

True, Connors beat Borg at the 76 US Open, he played a fantastic match.He also beat Borg at the Buenos Aires exo in the later 70´s and may be, somewhere else.Vilas beat Borg in that semi official tournament at Dusseldorf, which was like a mini DC which serve as a progressive rpeparation for RG.

Noah and Pecci, like you say, were a different bread of S&V players, even if, like Panatta, were raised on clay, and it was their best surface.Pecci had a lot more of touch, while Noah had more topspin and quite more stamina.Noah had a superb serve, Pecci´s was also a very good one, but it was more aa "american twist".They met at the 1981 Fo and it was Victor who emerged the winner ( and was beaten by Borg in the next round, BTW).
 
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