Borg pushes Alcaraz: “He will win as much as Nadal, if not more”

Let's demolish Nadal career numbers 1 by 1.

What are the tournaments Nadal never won.

Miami - done
Atp finals - let's see very possible

Now what are the tournaments he won just once
Cincinnati - very possible soon
Madrid (Paris) - possible soon

Defending non clay slams - done
Defending non clay title - Nadal 1 , Carlos 1 , let's see if he can do it on another


Then we will go to next level which will take time.

More grass titles - Nadal 4 raz 3
More channel slams? - Nadal 1 raz 1
Youngest cgs - Nadal 24 raz has 2 more chances.

Let's take things AWAY from Nadal one by one.
 
Raz will have a tougher time taking records away from nole than raph because nole is more versatile. But he would take many clay related records away from nole. Will take time.

But to take record away from raph, he would need to filter surface of clay.
 
messiahrobins said:
So Borg sees Nadal as the current GOAT then it seems. Quite clearly uses Nadal as the measuring stick.
Click to expand...
Without having watched the interview I personally would think that Borg mentioned his records in the context of Nadal’s accomplishments on Pista Rafa Nadal specifically and clay on general as he was interviewed in Barcelona
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Let's demolish Nadal career numbers 1 by 1.

What are the tournaments Nadal never won.

Miami - done
Atp finals - let's see very possible

Now what are the tournaments he won just once
Cincinnati - very possible soon
Madrid (Paris) - possible soon

Defending non clay slams - done
Defending non clay title - Nadal 1 , Carlos 1 , let's see if he can do it on another


Then we will go to next level which will take time.

More grass titles - Nadal 4 raz 3
More channel slams? - Nadal 1 raz 1
Youngest cgs - Nadal 24 raz has 2 more chances.

Let's take things AWAY from Nadal one by one.
Click to expand...
Good luck bestie lol
 
In this game of predictions, I will only give credence to those who will show me that before 2011 they imagined not only that Djokovic could win more slams than Federer and Nadal, but also reach 24 or at least around that focus.
Instead, I suspect that if at the time someone had dared to make such a prediction, they would have been laughed at by the person they were talking to.

All this to say that placing limits on Alcaraz (or Sinner himself) or in general on players who have already managed to win some slams at a young age is an absolutely useless and specious exercise.
No one has a crystal ball to predict possible long-term developments both with respect to the player analyzed, and not even with respect to the competition he will be called upon to face in the future.
 
Winner Sinner said:
In this game of predictions, I will only give credence to those who will show me that before 2011 they imagined not only that Djokovic could win more slams than Federer and Nadal, but also reach 24 or at least around that focus.
Instead, I suspect that if at the time someone had dared to make such a prediction, they would have been laughed at by the person they were talking to.

All this to say that placing limits on Alcaraz (or Sinner himself) or in general on players who have already managed to win some slams at a young age is an absolutely useless and specious exercise.
No one has a crystal ball to predict possible long-term developments both with respect to the player analyzed, and not even with respect to the competition he will be called upon to face in the future.
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Nadal fans make this claim more than fans of Fedkovic that Raz is so much worse than Nadal at hard courts.

Let's analyze. At exact same age. Nadal till 2008 Miami vs Raz till 2025 Miami

Slams
0 vs 1

Masters
3 vs 3

Titles
5 vs 6

Top 10 wins
12 vs 19

Top 5 wins
5 vs 8


What I would say is we are dealing with a very DISHONEST regime when it comes to Nadal fanatics who are making claims that Raz is far worse than Nadal based on no evidence.

He is literally better in every stat as you can see on hard courts. If Nadal can win 8, Raz can actually win 5 slams at least on HC.

@Winner Sinner do you agree?

@Hitman what do you think about these stats?
 
Last edited:
And if I count the same on Grass courts as well lets do it why not

Slams
0 vs 2

Titles
0 vs 3

Top 10 wins
1 (by retirement) vs 5

Top 5 wins
1 (by retirement) vs 4

Like I imagined, you are dealing with a very dishonest regime.
 
Federev said:
"it doesn't change the fact those 2 slam wins won't be put into a different context because Alcaraz and Djokovic didn't make it to him in the 2nd week of those slams"

Won't be put in a different context by who?

Everyone chooses whether to bring more or less context according to their own perspectives and favorites.

If you're saying that doesn't change the fact that he won those 2 slams, of course it doesn't.

Who is arguing that?
Click to expand...
But that's exactly my point. The numbers are the numbers so in the context of this thread, if Alcaraz wins 23 slams he'll be the more accomplished player than Nadal in terms of slam wins despite him not having to navigate through different variations of a Prime Federer and Djokovic. People on this board especially tend to add context, or throw up asterisks to use a better term, to slam victories with weak era talk as if they don't count as much as slam wins in perceived strong eras. My point is that the numbers are what matter the most, fan opinion matters less.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Nadal fans make this claim more than fans of Fedkovic that Raz is so much worse than Nadal at hard courts.

Let's analyze. At exact same age. Nadal till 2008 Miami vs Raz till 2025 Miami

Slams
0 vs 1

Masters
3 vs 3

Titles
5 vs 6

Top 10 wins
12 vs 19

Top 5 wins
5 vs 8


What I would say is we are dealing with a very DISHONEST regime when it comes to Nadal fanatics who are making claims that Raz is far worse than Nadal based on no evidence.

He is literally better in every stat as you can see on hard courts. If Nadal can win 8, Raz can actually win 5 slams at least on HC.

@Winner Sinner do you agree?

@Hitman what do you think about these stats?
Click to expand...
Those data are incontrovertible.

Do you agree that two years ago Alcaraz's prospects on hard suggested a much more advanced level in this phase of his career compared to his actual current level always on hard surfaces?

This even net of Sinner's sensational escalation.
Sinner's sensational escalation that has not directly influenced any of Alcaraz's many failures on hard surfaces from the beginning of 2024 to today, having never been eliminated by the Italian tennis player.
 
Titles won by same age on clay vs off clay

Nadal 18 on clay vs Carlos 9 off clay

Nadal 5 off clay vs Carlos 9 off clay

It just shows same thing we all knew about both Carlos and Rafa. While Rafa is ahead on clay by a mile, Carlos is actually ahead outside of clay.
 
Winner Sinner said:
Those data are incontrovertible.

Do you agree that two years ago Alcaraz's prospects on hard suggested a much more advanced level in this phase of his career compared to his actual current level always on hard surfaces?

This even net of Sinner's sensational escalation.
Sinner's sensational escalation that has not directly influenced any of Alcaraz's many failures on hard surfaces from the beginning of 2024 to today, having never been eliminated by the Italian tennis player.
Click to expand...

100% think that Carlos reached advanced level or result back in 2023 than today on HC. But level? That is subjective.
He won 1 title on HC in 2023. Just 1 maiden title. And just 2 top 5 wins on HC in 2023 vs Rublev (what a joke) and Medvedev.
Its not like he lighted up the court in 2023 at all on HC.
In 2022 he won 2 titles (1 slam and 1 masters) but just 1 top 5 win on HC.
Still in 2024 he had 4 wins vs top 5 on HC and 2 titles beating world number 1 Sinner.
So is he regressing or progressing?

I think both Nadal and Carlos have hard courts as their worst surface, this is for sure. Alcaraz has done well to adjust but he is still in learning phase. Its not like Nadal was better.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Did I calculate it wrong or is @The Blond Blur and @Sport spamming the board with Raz failures while hiding Nadal failures themselves?
Click to expand...
What are you talking about, lol? I’ve made a whopping 2 posts in this thread. My OP (which you agreed with btw 8-B) and a response to someone else. If anything, it’s been you who’s been spamming (to the surprise of absolutely no one). As far as RAFA’s failures vs Carl’s failures, the latter’s are far less excusable considering he doesn’t have any GOAT candidate player in their prime blocking him from winning titles like RAFA did with peak Fed and then later peak Joker.
 
If Carlos can get the serving numbers up, which he is working on since start of the season, he can have very good HC numbers.

34.3% break percentage right now in 2025 better than Nadal 30.05% break percentage on HC in 2008.

I think the break numbers are harder to improve than serve numbers.
 
The Blond Blur said:
What are you talking about, lol? I’ve made a whopping 2 posts in this thread. My OP (which you agreed with btw 8-B) and a response to someone else. As far as RAFA’s failures vs Carl’s failures, the latter’s are far less excusable considering he doesn’t have any GOAT candidate player in their prime blocking him from winning titles like RAFA did with peak Fed and then later peak Joker.
Click to expand...
I agree to many things when the context is correct. If their is grey area , I do agree than disagree most times.

I have not made posts saying Carlos is bad on HC, while not showing Nadal stats.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
I agree to many things when the context is correct. If their is grey area , I do agree than disagree most times.

I have not made posts saying Carlos is bad on HC, while now showing Nadal stats.
Click to expand...
Carl has been slumping on HC for a while now. That’s just a fact. His most successful HC tournaments of the season have already passed and he won neither of them. And that’s with the Sinner serving a ban.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Let's demolish Nadal career numbers 1 by 1.

What are the tournaments Nadal never won.

Miami - done
Atp finals - let's see very possible

Now what are the tournaments he won just once
Cincinnati - very possible soon
Madrid (Paris) - possible soon

Defending non clay slams - done
Defending non clay title - Nadal 1 , Carlos 1 , let's see if he can do it on another


Then we will go to next level which will take time.

More grass titles - Nadal 4 raz 3
More channel slams? - Nadal 1 raz 1
Youngest cgs - Nadal 24 raz has 2 more chances.

Let's take things AWAY from Nadal one by one.
Click to expand...
I am sending this roadmap to Alcaraz. I’m sure that he’ll appreciate it very much.
 
The Blond Blur said:
Carl has been slumping on HC for a while now. That’s just a fact. His most successful HC tournaments of the season have already passed and he won neither of them. And that’s with the Sinner serving a ban.
Click to expand...
So did Nadal in 2008. He barely won 2 titles on HC that year. Let's recount Nadal's 2007 to 2008 HC exploits post Wimbledon.

Canada loss in 2 sets to Djokovic
Cincy retirement vs Juan Monaco
USO R4 loss to Ferrer
Madrid 1 and 2 loss to Nalby
Paris 4 and 0 loss to Nalby
ATP finals SF loss to Federer
Chennai loss to Youzhney
AO drubbing by Tsonga
Rotterdam loss to Seppi
Dubai loss to Roddick
IW 3 and 2 loss to Djokovic
Miami final loss to Murray

Entire 8 months 0 titles , at least Raz won Beijing and Rotterdam. Most successful HC tournaments passed you said. LMAO

Nadal lost to Federer once in this time , no excuses. Raz actually beat Sinner in this time.
 
The problem with today's world is we can compare and contrast with the past with so many details .

Its very hard to hide behind big name drops like Nadal had Federer , who does this guy have anymore.

@Winner Sinner like I said very dishonest regime.
 
NYTennisfan said:
But that's exactly my point. The numbers are the numbers so in the context of this thread, if Alcaraz wins 23 slams he'll be the more accomplished player than Nadal in terms of slam wins despite him not having to navigate through different variations of a Prime Federer and Djokovic. People on this board especially tend to add context, or throw up asterisks to use a better term, to slam victories with weak era talk as if they don't count as much as slam wins in perceived strong eras. My point is that the numbers are what matter the most, fan opinion matters less.
Click to expand...

You wrote : "My point is that the numbers are what matter the most, fan opinion matters less."

But that's your opinion.

Numbers matter more than context to you.

So...You're proving my point.

No one argues numbers aren't numbers. But people implicitly argue every day here that the "greatness" value of the numbers is affected by the context.

Fed's 2018 AO slam counts as a slam according to math and the records just as much as his 2017 AO. But no serious fan would say his run was as high quality or as difficult as 2017.

Beating Rafa has way more value to his fans than beating Cilic.

The "greatness" or quality of a slam win (or wins) is what's always in debate here. You can say it shouldn't be because "math is math". But everyone knows "math is math". That's not the question. The debate is over how much the "math" should be weighed/affected/qualified by the context (like my example above). You say it shouldn't matter (I guess) cause that's too subjective and just an opinion.

But in reality, you're just making one more opinion, just like everyone else. See?

Anyway - we're going in circles.

I don't think I have anything else to add.
 
In fact in 2008, there were already talks about Djokovic is going to surpass Nadal in the rankings soon and time for the clay courter is over etc.

What happened between Clay season till Olympics is marvellous but its not like Nadal was infallible. He was getting as many losses as Carlos today.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
So did Nadal in 2008. He barely won 2 titles on HC that year. Let's recount Nadal's 2007 to 2008 HC exploits post Wimbledon.

Canada loss in 2 sets to Djokovic
Cincy retirement vs Juan Monaco
USO R4 loss to Ferrer
Madrid 1 and 2 loss to Nalby
Paris 4 and 0 loss to Nalby
ATP finals SF loss to Federer
Chennai loss to Youzhney
AO drubbing by Tsonga
Rotterdam loss to Seppi
Dubai loss to Roddick
IW 3 and 2 loss to Djokovic
Miami final loss to Murray

Entire 8 months 0 titles , at least Raz won Beijing and Rotterdam. Most successful HC tournaments passed you said. LMAO

Nadal lost to Federer once in this time , no excuses. Raz actually beat Sinner in this time.
Click to expand...
“Barely won 2 titles on HC that year.” This coming from the guy who didn’t start watching tennis until 2012 :-D Those 2 titles were an MS1000 and the OSG 8-B
And at least he was making deep runs into the SF and Fs in a lot of those tournaments. Carl just lost in Miami in the 2R to Goffin who most of us forgot was still on tour. He also lost to a Joker with a strained hamstring in the AO (still hasn’t made a SF appearance there yet).

Dude, you’re the one who turned this into a harping on RAFA’s failures vs Carl’s failures, not me.
 
The Blond Blur said:
“Barely won 2 titles on HC that year.” This coming from the guy who didn’t start watching tennis until 2012 :-D Those 2 titles were an MS1000 and the OSG 8-B
And at least he was making deep runs into the SF and Fs in a lot of those tournaments. Carl just lost in Miami in the 2R to Goffin who most of us forgot was still on tour. He also lost to a Joker with a strained hamstring in the AO (still hasn’t made a SF appearance there yet).

Dude, you’re the one who turned this into a harping on RAFA’s failures vs Carl’s failures, not me.
Click to expand...
Not this thread, my issue with you and @Sport is not bound to this single thread. You are two guys who are making fun of Alcaraz hc form, look at your own guy.

Making sf and f, dude Raz won 2 titles in this time period. Its not like he is losing every week R1.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Not this thread, my issue with you and @Sport is not bound to this single thread. You are two guys who are making fun of Alcaraz hc form, look at your own guy.

Making sf and f, dude Raz won 2 titles in this time period. It’s not like he is losing every week R1.
Click to expand...
Gotcha, so you made it up (y) That tracks since guys like you have to twist yourself into pretzels to perpetuate the victim mentality.

And the guys who were keeping RAFA from winning more titles on HC were so if best players ever in Joker and Murray…or do they not count since it was before 2011 :rolleyes:
 
The Blond Blur said:
Gotcha, so you made it up (y) That tracks since guys like you have to twist yourself into pretzels to perpetuate the victim mentality.

And the guys who were keeping RAFA from winning more titles on HC were so if best players ever in Joker and Murray…or do they not count since it was before 2011 :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Except it was not them

Monaco, Ferrer, Seppi are not HC legends.
 
Federev said:
You wrote : "My point is that the numbers are what matter the most, fan opinion matters less."

But that's your opinion.

Numbers matter more than context to you.

So...You're proving my point.

No one argues numbers aren't numbers. But people implicitly argue every day here that the "greatness" value of the numbers is affected by the context.

Fed's 2018 AO slam counts as a slam according to math and the records just as much as his 2017 AO. But no serious fan would say his run was as high quality or as difficult as 2017.

Beating Rafa has way more value to his fans than beating Cilic.

The "greatness" or quality of a slam win (or wins) is what's always in debate here. You can say it shouldn't be because "math is math". But everyone knows "math is math". That's not the question. The debate is over how much the "math" should be weighed/affected/qualified by the context (like my example above). You say it shouldn't matter (I guess) cause that's too subjective and just an opinion.

But in reality, you're just making one more opinion, just like everyone else. See?

Anyway - we're going in circles.

I don't think I have anything else to add.
Click to expand...
But numbers are actual facts. Djokovic's 24 is 24, there's no debate. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.
What is debatable is context that's added to slam titles by fans like quality of competition, surfaces etc.
That's my general point. When Djokovic breaks Nadal's record, who is saying "but he vultured those slams" outside of fans on a message board or social media? It doesn't matter in the grand scheme, Djokovic has the record and no manipulation of his accomplishment will change that in a historical sense. Debating the quality of 24 is, well, up for debate, debating 24 is not. See what I mean?

But yes, we're going in circles. Thanks for the friendly exchange, those are in short supply around here at times.
 
NYTennisfan said:
He has that potential and is already one of the most successful 21 year olds in tennis history so it's not far fetched from that standpoint but realistically a whole hell of a lot has to go perfectly right to reach those heights so it's incredibly unlikely. Plus he needs to tweak his game to become a HC threat which is where most titles are to be had.
Click to expand...
he's not exactly...not a hardcourt threat now, but for sure his biggest competition is on that surface.
 
Just keep your expectations in check everyone

At this time in their career big 3 had these many slams

Fed 1
Djokovic 1
Nadal 3
Carlos 4

He is not behind any of the three. He might not reach 20 but he might as well. He has won 4 already before turning 22 . Nadal couldn't do it, so forget about fedkovic.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Raz will have a tougher time taking records away from nole than raph because nole is more versatile. But he would take many clay related records away from nole. Will take time.

But to take record away from raph, he would need to filter surface of clay.
Click to expand...

Nole is more versatile? I wouldn't say that.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Soon raz will be ahead of Nadal on indoors hc.
Click to expand...
Can Sinner achieve what Federer and Djokovic achieved indoors?
That's what Nadal faced in his career, and I doubt Alcaraz will have as much competition as the Spanish left-hander did.
:)
 
Kralingen said:
Only if you coach him, Bjorn. Remove the cancer who is central to the rot in Alcaraz’s game and watch him blossom. When Ferrero is sacked, sky is the limit. Until that day, Sinner will reign.
Click to expand...
Tired of seeing Ferrero cry his ass off everytime Carlitos wins a tournament, even if its a 250? Me too. When you get to a point when you see your student as your own child, you start telling them “it’s fine to lose as long as you’re happy”. Mediocre results are fine. Well Ferrero, Carlitos is not your son and he is not a mediocre player.

When he gets rid of Ferrero, I hope he doesn’t hire Toni Nadal. Sure, Toni might soldier him up, but he will also destroy his body. Because Toni Nadal is a tactical blunder.

Carlos needs someone like Jmac who would question every idiotic decision he makes on court. As a financial advisor, I recommend Sampras :D
 
NYTennisfan said:
I actually think fans favor their opinions to deny the facts like with the quotes I posted above regarding vulturing etc.

Hell, even as an Alcaraz fan I've made comments that Sinner had easier paths to his last two slam wins but it doesn't change the fact those 2 slam wins won't be put into a different context because Alcaraz and Djokovic didn't make it to him in the 2nd week of those slams. It's 2 slam wins in the books and that's that, his 2 slams don't come with qualifiers or context. I mean, historically there's no difference between his 2024 USO finals win over Fritz and Nadal's 2008 Wimbledon finals win over Federer. That's a slam win either way, the quality of it is fan opinion. That's what I'm saying, those are the numbers and those are what matter historically especially when making Modern Era comparisons. I think more context can be added when you're comparing the older era guys to modern era because the tour, racquets and conditioning is completely different now.
Click to expand...

Eh, but there are numbers and there are numbers.

Rafa has more RGs than Borg. I don't dismissively claim him better than Borg on clay.

Rafa has more majors than Fed. I don't dismissively say that he is a better player than Fed.

Rafa won a few majors without Fed or Nole around. Some of those were fairly weak draws.

I acknowledge that these are in his favor or against, but recognize the numbers suggest not prove.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
The problem with today's world is we can compare and contrast with the past with so many details .

Its very hard to hide behind big name drops like Nadal had Federer , who does this guy have anymore.

@Winner Sinner like I said very dishonest regime.
Click to expand...
The narrative of Nadal fans regarding their favorite's career is quite eloquent, that is, he won when he was perfectly healthy and sometimes even when he wasn't, and when he lost only due to force majeure, such as injuries or fierce competition.
Others have failed and can fail, Nadal simply can't!
 
Alcaraz is a great talent but I'm not sure he will have the long term drive, health, and a rival to push him to 22 Slams. 18 Slams is a lonnnnnng way to to. Borg only won half of that and got burned out. He doesn't even know what it takes.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Today this opinion means nothing.

He can or he can't. What we can say is he is on right path. No one can promise 18 more slams for him or anyone.
Click to expand...
He has a great headstart but a lot can happen to throw him off course. It's way too early to say he will reach Nadal. Will have to wait a few years and see how it goes.
 
NoleFam said:
He has a great headstart but a lot can happen to throw him off course. It's way too early to say he will reach Nadal. Will have to wait a few years and see how it goes.
Click to expand...
Again why should we bite the tongue.

Djokovic never did.

Always aim highest and if failed failed.
 
NoleFam said:
Djokovic didn't start talking that way until he reached 10 Slams and his target to reach was 17, a lot less than 22.
Click to expand...
Djokovic had very slow start. After winning 1 he had not won anything so ofcourse he didn't say this.

But he said Nadal is beatable , fed time is over and many such things.

To be honest this is alcaraz time. Big 3 times is over. Screw respect. He has chance to break records and until he fails , we must give him respect.
 
Winner Sinner said:
The narrative of Nadal fans regarding their favorite's career is quite eloquent, that is, he won when he was perfectly healthy and sometimes even when he wasn't, and when he lost only due to force majeure, such as injuries or fierce competition.
Others have failed and can fail, Nadal simply can't!
Click to expand...
Nadal was never "perfectly healthy" once he was diagnosed with Mueller-Weiss syndrome in late 2005.
 
nolefam_2024 said:
Djokovic had very slow start. After winning 1 he had not won anything so ofcourse he didn't say this.

But he said Nadal is bearable , fed time is over and many such things.

To be honest this is alcaraz time. Big 3 times is over. Screw respect. He has chance to break records and until he fails , we must give him respect.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't say it was very slow start. A slower start for sure when you compare it to the guys who were winning big at 19-21 but he had 5 Slams by the time he was 24 and 8 months. That puts him ahead of Connors, Lendl and Agassi but behind Borg, Sampras, Federer and Nadal, so right in the middle. That's great considering who he was going up against and who was blocking his ascension. He would more than make up ground in his 30s.

Alcaraz is not even knocking on the door yet. It is way to early to be thinking about him reaching Nadal is my point.
 
NoleFam said:
I wouldn't say it was very slow start. A slower start for sure when you compare it to the guys who were winning big at 19-21 but he had 5 Slams by the time he was 24 and 8 months. That puts him ahead of Connors, Lendl and Agassi but behind Borg, Sampras, Federer and Nadal, so right in the middle. That's great considering who he was going up against and who was blocking his ascension. He would more than make up ground in his 30s.

Alcaraz is not even knocking on the door yet. It is way to early to be thinking about him reaching Nadal is my point.
Click to expand...
But why are you going in circles.

Djokovic has pretty slow start compared to raz age to age. Just agree. Raz will turn 23 by the time he might be at five slams compared to 1 for nole so that is slow.

Now , raz can say he wants to be the best and someone like Bjorn can say he will match Nadal. There is absolutely no issue for each.

Both are not guaranteeing this will happen but they see it happening.
 
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