I always prefer Москва ( Moscow ) racquet, that was a pirate clown of Maxply. My first coach gave me two of them for free use in 1982, i mostly struggled with very uncomfortable grip, got many blood blisters. Later racquet was recalled to Союз ( Union ). I still have my first racquet with me now.
Volkl become affortable to even amateurs after Soviet National team signed a sponsor contract with Volkl ( it was about '85-'86, before it was all Adidas). Players who got Volkls immediately began to sold them ( some extra ones ) for 350 roubles. It was the standart price for foreign made racquet in Moscow from '85 and later.
Great article, thanks for sharing. This last paragraph is the best and I can see how the crux of it can basically can be applied to a whole lot more than cycling.
Well...yeah but it's obviously not black and white like most things in life. Standard bell curve distribution, I suppose. The only thing is that just "stepping into" the TT forum swings you all the way to the more extreme part of it.
That is a given. Crux of it however can be applied to most things as I said above, i-e focus more on honing basic skills than letting equipment bog you down.
I don't disagree...if getting better at something is what you're after in the first place.
Of course. I mean the entire article under discussion is about competitive cycling to boot
Sure, albeit with rather highly philosophical approach... All I'm saying from the off is that it's not like you're either a "road racer" or "equipment consumer". The crux you're talking about is, actually, that purely philosophical thing applicable to a niche group of people who are lightly dipping into competitive universe. Once you start to really compete, you tend to get the right stuff which either helps you or at least won't stand in your way (depending on your financial abilities and commitment) and gets the job done. Once you are a sponsored pro, you get the best gear your sponsorship deal is capable of. Plus once you're a competitive road racer, you literally become an equipment consumer because you burn through the gear really fast.Of course. I mean the entire article under discussion is about competitive cycling to boot
My take was purely based on what was written in the article and my general worldview of things. I have neither raced cycles or lived in USSR. I think you have taken off on a tangent to the simple point I was making above which was to emphasize that one needs to focus more on honing skills before you start worrying about equipment and gear. In a level playing field, former matters more and everything else comes later. The concept doesn't apply to a "niche" group. It applies to everyone.
Hmm. Im not sure what you are arguing against. My understanding is that article doesn't say that top guys at national level were racing on crappy stuff. From what I understood the last paragraph and the whole article basically suggests that at earlier stages of development the gear was barely passable and that led to a mindset which emphasized more on skill development rather than worrying abt equipment. As the guys progressed and proved themselves with racers using similar type of crap gear, the gear started getting better and better from the state (as stated in the article). I believe that is what @haqq777 was pointing to above as well.
That is indeed what I took away from the article as well. And that is why in my post above I mentioned that in a level playing field where everyone had similar gear, you must have had to focus more on things beside the bike (you can make the bike efficient only to degree) like putting in the miles, hard work, nutrition etc. And when I said concept applied to everyone, I meant that no one else (in that category) had better bikes so those wanting to succeed had to look elsewhere besides the bike to progress to the next level. This mindset, at an early stage and in a competitive setup, is what I was alluding to before. And of course as the young riders progressed and got success within their group, they were then given better bikes as well. And their gear continued to get better till they reached the echelon of racing in the country.
Well, you were the one underlining that this article is about competitive cycling. The concept obviously applies to everybody at some point of their professional cycling development but what you have in the end in this particular situation is either pros or high level amateur competitors who are fully aware of it (and are highly dependent on their carefully selected gear precisely because of the level playing field) or guys who don't compete so couldn't care less unless they do (because they want to for some philosophical reason). All you're left with are folks somewhere around entry/lower level amateur competitions - that's certainly not everyone as far as cycling is concerned.
My point is that the premise that a communist system per se produces racers less concerned with what they were competing on and more with honing their skills is off, because
I really don't think you understood the point I was making. Of course I am underlining that the article is mostly about competitive cycling. And of course, the concept of honing skills applies to everyone who is competing - as I mentioned before also - even in "entry/lower level amateur competitions" or what have you. If you want to progress, you have to find that edge which has more to do with just bikes in this particular instance - given that everyone has the same equipment - otherwise you will not reach the top tier. If you are not interested, you obviously don't give a hoot and won't make it. Not that hard to grasp the point I was making. After all, you just said it was "painfully obvious".
I think you are making a lot of assumptions here that are not valid in my opinion and have nothing to do with what both above poster and I are making evidently. Either way, I will indulge a bit.
Where do the Glavsportprom Kneissl clones fit inside this equipment hierarchy? We learned elsewhere from @BorgCash that used examples like the ones below are quite common and inexpensive today, but were they widely available when new? In which Soviet Republic/factory were they produced? Did they import the prepregs (to match Kneissl specs) or source the material locally? Austria being neutral, I'd imagine Austrian sports equipment makers were ideal collaboration partners on this sort of projects. Were there any Soviet Fischer clones?
I'm not replying to Haqq, I'm reacting to the original article shared. Or better, I am replying to him regarding a quote in discussion by explaining my thinking regarding the article the quote is from.
Yeah, so? You do the same everywhere anytime regardless of what equipment you may or may not get. That was my point regarding the original article - you don't need to be in Soviet Union with no access to goods for that.
So you're saying that simple tube crappy aluminium bicycle from not USSR is better than a simple tube aluminium bicycle from USSR? Because them being equally crappy was my only point regarding crappy stuff being equal. I would also argue about the more general issue of your quote - I don't think that free import options automatically means better quality goods. Cheaper stuff with bigger margin for a seller maybe. I would argue, for instance, that local shoes produced in Czechoslovakia were of much better quality than whatever is imported from China now. They still are, just fyi.
Not sure how this is unclear. The article speaks about a training system and once you're in the system, you use what system offers you. It does not matter what salary your family have or what. All I'm saying is that it works like this almost everywhere in the world even to this day, because cycling isn't a sport privileged kid choose as a career on a regular basis. Again, a point with regards to the original article.
I've explained this two times already.
Look, I reacted to a cheesy two sentences at the end of the paragraph you shared and pointed out that people in general are usually somewhere in between two extremes as is the standard statistical distribution in this world. Then I jumped a few steps ahead and cryptically brought in those guys who enjoy switching gear more than winning into discussion (that's this: #12). From that point on I started to react to the original article. That's just for the record.
Understood. So I wasn't imagining things, you really were going back and forth between multiple points making it a bit hard to follow. Thank you for clarifying.
Of course. You aren't wrong. But by the same token however everyone at some point in time will know more or less about something that is put out there, not just bike racing. Pick any topic. You will always have someone who knows more than the next person and you will always have pieces that do not add value for certain sub sets, be it any topic.
I like that.
Then you need to word your responses better. You were all over the place and jumping from point to point making it very unclear what you were really addressing.
So you are conceding that you do hone and sharpen skills given a level playing field. This is from your first reply to me
Read the article for the love of God. I'm not saying all this. The author is. And that is not in anyway related to the point he is trying to drive home. You have admittedly not lived in the USSR as you yourself admitted above, and have not seen things first hand. Your counter to the author sounds a bit rich right about now. That is all I'm saying.
See above point.
Have you even read the article? Here is a direct quote:
No you have simple regurgitated the same thing and haven't really touched on any of what I said. But its ok. We can definitely move on.
You, sir, will make for an excellent developmental coach
I should have been clearer from the off. Point taken and thanks.
Duly noted, although it was you who jumped into our discussion .)
What I'm saying is that you have to hone your skills regardless of what is or is not available in Soviet Union or anywhere else.
I disagree with this from the off and I've already explained why. I think coherently enough.
I read the article several times. True, I have not lived in USSR, I lived in it's Eastern bloc satellite b.i.t.c.h. Not the same, not too far off either. I have first hand experience with the sort of bicycles mentioned in the article and if they were crappy at all, they were about as crappy as whatever entry level gear was imported after Velvet Revolution in 1989. Does that qualify as first hand experience? Just btw, still got a bunch of 1970's bikes and they are still going strong.
That is your opinion, right? Already explained why I disagree...
Fair enough. And likewise!
Is the "date stamp" to which you are referring above the grip, Retro? My own "Master" and "Progress" (shown in Post #19 above) are marked "VII-87" and "5-89" respectively, which I assumed to mean "July 1987" and May "1989", when the USSR was still in one piece, and glasnost and perestroika were in full swing. Unless those are not date stamps?
Yes: mine is inscribed “5” (pertaining to grip size), then on a line below, “6.91.”
I' can't help you out. But I least you have now a name and a picture. Someone in my country sells this.
If you can tell me what exactly are you looking for (model name etc.), I can have a looksy. People in former Czechoslovakia have all sorts of these racquets in their attics, basements, garages and usually sell them for like 10 bucks on the internet.
sport.bazos.cz
Yes, you could. The food in the former Soviet Union was very cheap, unlike modern Putin's Russia.
No, there were no Fischer clones in the USSR. Kneissl were made in Moscow on sports gear factory named Хоккей (Hockey), they also made hockey sticks as well. First the quality was good, but then it become bad, Kneissl did not accepted that kind of quality, and the production continued without reference to Kneissl license.Where do the Glavsportprom Kneissl clones fit inside this equipment hierarchy? We learned elsewhere from @BorgCash that used examples like the ones below are quite common and inexpensive today, but were they widely available when new? In which Soviet Republic/factory were they produced? Did they import the prepregs (to match Kneissl specs) or source the material locally? Austria being neutral, I'd imagine Austrian sports equipment makers were ideal collaboration partners on this sort of projects. Were there any Soviet Fischer clones?
Personally, I find these relics fascinating, as they demonstrate that despite the apocalyptic rhetorics and saber rattling between rivals big and small, people never stop to look for ways to work together when there is mutual benefit. If an entire Red Army division could be mobilized to play French, British, and German troops alongside British and American movie stars in an Italian production of a Napoleonic war epic at the height of the Vietnam War ("Waterloo"), then anything and everything is possible.
So, yours is a late issue, June of 1991. There were also price written on the racquet.
I still training with these two types of racquets.Where do the Glavsportprom Kneissl clones fit inside this equipment hierarchy? We learned elsewhere from @BorgCash that used examples like the ones below are quite common and inexpensive today, but were they widely available when new? In which Soviet Republic/factory were they produced? Did they import the prepregs (to match Kneissl specs) or source the material locally? Austria being neutral, I'd imagine Austrian sports equipment makers were ideal collaboration partners on this sort of projects. Were there any Soviet Fischer clones?
Personally, I find these relics fascinating, as they demonstrate that despite the apocalyptic rhetorics and saber rattling between rivals big and small, people never stop to look for ways to work together when there is mutual benefit. If an entire Red Army division could be mobilized to play French, British, and German troops alongside British and American movie stars in an Italian production of a Napoleonic war epic at the height of the Vietnam War ("Waterloo"), then anything and everything is possible.
Yes, yours were made in July 1987 and May 1989. There were also price, grip number and weight info ( Л -L, ЛС - LM, С - M ).
It was more possibilities to get different good staff ( sports gear also ) in the CSSR than in the USSR.
Ok but it's just another shade of grey. My credibility of having any first hand experience was in question and I truly believe that even though the "dose" might have been different, the "taste" of the system was pretty much the same. Nevermind, it was not the point but I don't want to drag this any further.
Probably yes, there is no enough freedom.
Quite a few West German pros did... Charlie Steeb, Hansjorg Schwaier, Sylvia Hanika...
Agree Vostok is a Russian word, should be written "Восток" = East in English.
