Bosu Ball revisted

LGQ7 said:
Neither is ballet. Ballet requires the flattest surface.



That's bodybuilding talk. Bodybuilding is modeled on Greek statues. Statues don't move. Neither can bodybuilders. I had a lady friend who was a mini-triathlete. When I taught her to play tennis she noticed great improvements in her legs. Because in running you only run in one direction, forward. In tennis you move, forward, backward, left, right, and everything in between.



Ballet dancers is all about form. And they know everything about injuries.



Bodybuilding talk.



How do you know? I bet ballet dancers know more about balance than anybody.



NO one on Earth knows how to build core strength better than ballet dancers, none.

Check out a professional ballet dancer training on a Bosu ball.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQp85tHjS_X/?tagged=abtfit
Click to expand...


It's not body building talk (lol) and I'm not, nor have I ever desired to be a body builder, but the fact is weight training will enhance almost ANY sport you play and that is a proven fact which you apparently don't seem to grasp. I think the people you are referring to are the ones on roids and those are the idiots. How do you ascertain that Ballet dancers know "everything" about injuries and that no one on earth knows how to build core strength better than ballet dancers? You're joking in your reply, right? You can't be serious in what you just posted and if you are, (no offense to you) you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. The majority of people you see in your average gym are NOT body builders as you assume and many of them play sports and work their muscles in a gym so that they can perform better in the sport they play and help PREVENT injuries. Why do you think almost all the ATP folks do weight training?

Cheers
 
Daniel-San said:
I wasn't disagreeing, but pointing out that the single study you referenced was correlational and that you couldn't draw a causal conclusion from it
Click to expand...

Correct...and I don't think there will be any studies done soon on effects of swinging a tennis racquet while trying to balance on a bosu ball.sigh.....

Cheers.
 
DrWang said:
but the fact is weight training will enhance almost ANY sport you play and that is a proven fact which you apparently don't seem to grasp.
Click to expand...

Correction. ALL sports. What makes you think I don't grasp that?

DrWang said:
It's not body building talk (lol)?
Click to expand...

The "gym" itself is something that is invented by bodybuilding. When you walk into a gym, Planet Fitness, Gold's Gym, whatever you are walking into something that is built physically and mentally by bodybuilders.

DrWang said:
How do you ascertain that Ballet dancers know "everything" about injuries?
Click to expand...

You don't know about ballet.

DrWang said:
and that no one on earth knows how to build core strength better than ballet dancers? You're joking in your reply, right?
Click to expand...

Why do you assume I'm joking? Seriously, why?

Everything a ballet dancer does requires the core to hold everything together.
 
I say that because it is obvious to me that you make a lot of assumptions of things. I didn't know you had such a vast knowledge of who designs those gyms and what they were thinking. Sounds like you spend very little time if any, in a gym like the ones you mentioned, because if you did, you would know that they offer yoga, cardiovascular, martial arts, dance, aeobics, and several other variety of activities that have nothing to do with bodybuilding and as I said, most people in there are not body building in the sense you perceive it to be with referece to greek statues. You are also wrong when you say ALL sports, because there actually are very small percentage of sports which dont benefit from weight training, but I'll let you try and figure out what sports those are.

Not interested in ballet either,.but if you practice ballet and enjoy watching it, then good for you.
 
DrWang said:
I didn't know you had such a vast knowledge of who designs those gyms and what they were thinking. Sounds like you spend very little time if any, in a gym like the ones you mentioned, because if you did, you would know that they offer yoga, cardiovascular, martial arts, dance, aerobics, and several other variety of activities that have nothing to do with bodybuilding.
Click to expand...

I don't need a vast knowledge, just one step back in time. Gyms were invented by bodybuilders. Now they offer different classes, that's the icing on the cake. I'm sure Gold's Gym now offer spin class, dance class, yoga class, kick boxing class, etc. . . It doesn't change the meat and potatoes of its origin of Gold's Gym as the iron dungeon in the movie Pumping Iron.

 
DrWang said:
Sounds like you spend very little time if any, in a gym like the ones you mentioned, because if you did, you would know that they offer yoga, cardiovascular, martial arts, dance, aerobics, and several other variety of activities that have nothing to do with bodybuilding . . .
Click to expand...

If you walk into a boxing gym today, it looks very cool, like in the movie Creed. They have mirrors (like a ballet studio), cardio machines, free weights, maybe some cable machines. The average Joe can go in and do "box-ercise", or whatever.

Dial the time machine back to Rocky I, and Rocky is hitting beef in a meat locker. That's what a boxing gym is, and will always be no matter how clean, modern, and "civilian" it looks or caters to.
 
I think it's a control issue (no offense) but let the coach do his job and stop being overly critical of the techniques being used. You'll do yourself a favor. We all want the best for our kids but when you find yourself here take a step back or just go to a different training facility.
 
How about just plain old using the ball for FUN? It can be a challenge, it's different, it can introduce a new element to a routine. Lot of kids enjoy it.

Have you ever considered that your son likes training on it? Have you asked him? If he replies in the affirmative, don't you think that might be worth the small amount of time he's on it?

Or would you cite him your research links and talk to him about not being able to reach another 4%? Believe me, treating & training kids they don't give a rat's ass about that stuff.


Because in reality, even if your son is the next Roger Federer, the small amount of time he's spending on it, which "isn't a big deal" & "not hurting his game" shouldn't impact his progression as a tennis player. Not even 4% :)


Aren't you paying the coach? If so in essence he's your employee. Tell him to stop using it for your child.
 
LGQ7 said:
If you walk into a boxing gym today, it looks very cool, like in the movie Creed. They have mirrors (like a ballet studio), cardio machines, free weights, maybe some cable machines. The average Joe can go in and do "box-ercise", or whatever.

Dial the time machine back to Rocky I, and Rocky is hitting beef in a meat locker. That's what a boxing gym is, and will always be no matter how clean, modern, and "civilian" it looks or caters to.
Click to expand...

Heh heh. Sorry....that really is an amusing reply. I'm not going to even try and explain what the mirrors are for because you wouldn't understand and with this later reference to fictional movie characters, you also have very limited knowledge on boxing. I'm an American who has been living in Thailand for several years now. I work with and train with Muay Thai boxers. They are the real deal and not the watered down wannabes you may see back in the states. ALL of them are on a weight training program...ALL! NONE of them hit raw meat in a butcher factory like you see in the movies, and none of them do ballet or stand on bosu balls. One of the largest Muay Thai training facilities is close to my residence and I'd be more than happy to video them and show you how they train. There are very young teenagers there who would wipe the floor with you in a heartbeat without even breaking a sweat, probably kick my ass good and proper too. Again, no offense, but you have a lot of misconceptions about weight training and other sports, and that goes for injuries as well with your reference to Ballet dancers knowing everything about injuries. Have you ever played American football my friend? I have, all through high school and through college. Football players, rugby, etc....these guys understand injuries more than anyone because they sustain injuries in just about every part of their body. Do gyms and Body builders intimidate you or something? Just curious.

Cheers.
 
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Hmgraphite1 said:
I think it's a control issue (no offense) but let the coach do his job and stop being overly critical of the techniques being used. You'll do yourself a favor. We all want the best for our kids but when you find yourself here take a step back or just go to a different training facility.
Click to expand...

No offense taken brother. It's actually my wife who is the control freak. lol. I've never forced my son to do anything against his will with regards to sports. My take is what you stated, let the coach do his job, but let me do my job as a fitness trainer because I have experience and expertise in that particular field. My son's coach is actually very good and I am more than satisfied with the results my son is getting with regards to his game. I'm only questioning this one particular activity, but then again. He's not spending a lot of time on it, so it's probably not harming anything.

Cheers.
 
RogueFLIP said:
How about just plain old using the ball for FUN? It can be a challenge, it's different, it can introduce a new element to a routine. Lot of kids enjoy it.

Have you ever considered that your son likes training on it? Have you asked him? If he replies in the affirmative, don't you think that might be worth the small amount of time he's on it?

Or would you cite him your research links and talk to him about not being able to reach another 4%? Believe me, treating & training kids they don't give a rat's ass about that stuff.


Because in reality, even if your son is the next Roger Federer, the small amount of time he's spending on it, which "isn't a big deal" & "not hurting his game" shouldn't impact his progression as a tennis player. Not even 4% :)


Aren't you paying the coach? If so in essence he's your employee. Tell him to stop using it for your child.
Click to expand...

Agree with you 100%. Of course I don't make him read links to studies or stuff like that. He's too young to understand all of that. That's my job. I have asked him on several occasions what he likes to do...two things are at the top of his list, swimming and resistance training using bungee. He enjoys drills using a medicine ball and slam ball as well. My wife is a yoga instructor (yes, I know I'm a lucky man) and she works with my son as well for flexibility and stretching. VERY helpful and at times overlooked by some.

*Curious. What type of sport players do you see the most where you work? Is there a higher percentage of one sport vs another?


Cheers.
 
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DrWang said:
Heh heh. Sorry....that really is an amusing reply . . . reference to fictional movie characters . . . NONE of them hit raw meat in a butcher factory like you see in the movies . . .
Click to expand...

So called "fiction" has a basis in reality.

2:20 Hitting beef is real.

 
DrWang said:
Agree with you 100%. Of course I don't make him read links to studies or stuff like that. He's too young to understand all of that. That's my job. I have asked him on several occasions what he likes to do...two things are at the top of his list, swimming and resistance training using bungee. He enjoys drills using a medicine ball and slam ball as well. My wife is a yoga instructor (yes, I know I'm a lucky man) and she works with my son as well for flexibility and stretching. VERY helpful and at times overlooked by some.

*Curious. What type of sport players do you see the most where you work? Is there a higher percentage of one sport vs another?
Click to expand...

Whew, well I'm glad to hear that :p.

I do not work in that large sports oriented clinic anymore. My current place of employ focuses on manual therapy for the treatment of chronic pain patients. As such the majority of my patients are of the end of the line, chronic pain variety.

However that doesn't mean I don't treat athletes, quite the contrary. But the athletes we see are the complex cases, the really complicated ones.....those are the ones we like :)

But to answer your question, the majority of sports players I treat are tennis players. Most likely bc people at my tennis club know me and what I do. I've done consulting for 3 different tennis coaches & treated 2 of them. So referrals come from them as well. I've treated pretty much all the club pros, and bartered with a lot of them. I've gotten the short end of the deal, because they're all better and I still stink at tennis :D

2nd most I've been seeing are Crossfit people.

Once the weather gets warmer around my parts, that's when the golfers come out.
 
DrWang said:
Correct...and I don't think there will be any studies done soon on effects of swinging a tennis racquet while trying to balance on a bosu ball...
Click to expand...

Don’t know about the studies but, in addition to bosu ball training by top junior development academies, numerous ATP and WTA players employ bosu balls in their training. Some even use plyo/stability balls in a similar fashion. ATP/WTA training with both bosu and plyo for balance, stability and proprioception in these videos.


Don’t recall if I’ve seen Roger Federer training with a bosu ball but I have come across more than one video of him hitting volleys while standing on one leg on a mini-trampoline.

 
Wow they really push themselves, never thought Fognini would be found workin like that.
Is this only done in off season or occasionally throughout the year?
 
Hmgraphite1 said:
Wow they really push themselves, never thought Fognini would be found workin like that. Is this only done in off season or occasionally throughout the year?
Click to expand...

Since pro tennis does not have much of an off-season, I would imagine that the top players do this sort of training, at the very least, periodically throughout the year.

Fognini and many, if not most, elite athletes probably experience a Runner’s high when training and playing. This runner’s high tends to promote a feeling of euphoria and a state where pain is suppressed or reduced. Natural painkillers are produced In the brain by the release of Endocannabinoids or, possibly, endorphins. It is the release of these neurotransmitters that make it easy for top athletes to push themselves when training.
 
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SystemicAnomaly said:
Don’t know about the studies but, in addition to bosu ball training by top junior development academies, numerous ATP and WTA players employ bosu balls in their training. Some even use plyo/stability balls in a similar fashion. ATP/WTA training with both bosu and plyo for balance, stability and proprioception in these videos.


Don’t recall if I’ve seen Roger Federer training with a bosu ball but I have come across more than one video of him hitting volleys while standing on one leg on a mini-trampoline.

Click to expand...

Thanks for posting these. I've actually reviewed them before. I've seen the mini-trampoline one and another with Murray standing on a yoga ball. I still don't see a dramatic benefit from doing that, but I'm sure it's not hurting. I for one, wouldn't go out and buy a bosu ball because an ATP pro is using one, neither would I buy the same racquet, strings, etc. Please don't take that wrong. I'm just saying what some people believe works for them doesn't necessarily mean it will work for others. I do know that if you are using a bosu ball in order to try and increase your strength, you are short changing yourself vs doing weight training, especially when it comes to core and legs.

As far as balance is concerned, we need to consider static balance vs dynamic, coordination, and how well your ability is in controlling your center of gravity. My belief is that in order to improve one's balance, (especially dynamic balance because in tennis you are constantly moving) you need to practice the things that cause you to be out of balance in a real time environment in those types of situations. I'm thinking typically of drills where you have to react fast, like running and hitting the ball while on the run. To me, this puts more stress on the player in a real time environment while on the tennis court. Just my thoughts.

Cheers
 
RogueFLIP said:
Whew, well I'm glad to hear that :p.

I do not work in that large sports oriented clinic anymore. My current place of employ focuses on manual therapy for the treatment of chronic pain patients. As such the majority of my patients are of the end of the line, chronic pain variety.

However that doesn't mean I don't treat athletes, quite the contrary. But the athletes we see are the complex cases, the really complicated ones.....those are the ones we like :)

But to answer your question, the majority of sports players I treat are tennis players. Most likely bc people at my tennis club know me and what I do. I've done consulting for 3 different tennis coaches & treated 2 of them. So referrals come from them as well. I've treated pretty much all the club pros, and bartered with a lot of them. I've gotten the short end of the deal, because they're all better and I still stink at tennis :D

2nd most I've been seeing are Crossfit people.

Once the weather gets warmer around my parts, that's when the golfers come out.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you enjoy your work! Maybe, you should charge those coaches more. :) I know the feeling when you help someone, and see them grow and develop in the process. I still do fitness training, but it is more of a favor kind of thing.

Cheers.
 
DrWang said:
Thanks for posting these. I've actually reviewed them before. I've seen the mini-trampoline one and another with Murray standing on a yoga ball. I still don't see a dramatic benefit from doing that, but I'm sure it's not hurting. I for one, wouldn't go out and buy a bosu ball because an ATP pro is using one, neither would I buy the same racquet, strings, etc. Please don't take that wrong. I'm just saying what some people believe works for them doesn't necessarily mean it will work for others. I do know that if you are using a bosu ball in order to try and increase your strength, you are short changing yourself vs doing weight training, especially when it comes to core and legs.

As far as balance is concerned, we need to consider static balance vs dynamic, coordination, and how well your ability is in controlling your center of gravity. My belief is that in order to improve one's balance, (especially dynamic balance because in tennis you are constantly moving) you need to practice the things that cause you to be out of balance in a real time environment in those types of situations. I'm thinking typically of drills where you have to react fast, like running and hitting the ball while on the run. To me, this puts more stress on the player in a real time environment while on the tennis court. Just my thoughts.

Cheers
Click to expand...

I noticed that you keep harping on strength development. I’ve never mentioned that as a benefit of bosu ball training. Has someone else in this thread done so? I believe that strength training is a very, very minor part of bosu training. Its primary intent/benefits are balance, flexibility, proprioception and development of the reflexes. It helps to teach us to coordinate muscles and nerves when the body is in unstable conditions. Some use it for body toning and rehab as well.

Speaking of strength development, it is really not all that high on the list of important requirements for tennis. I am not saying that it is unimportant. It’s just that things like stroke mechanics, timing, power, hand—eye coordination (includes proprioception), balance, speed, footwork, flexibility, agility, stamina (both aerobic & anaerobic) and analytic aptitude are more important than strength development. Sure, some strength training will be part of power development. But muscle speed is considerably more important than muscle strength for developing the power required for tennis.

I would venture to say that the training of modern athletes is based heavily on science. Perhaps not quite everything they do is necessarily beneficial but I believe that the vast majority of it is. Sure, novice and low level intermediate players need not concern themselves with everything that the pros do for training. But, for high level intermediate players who strive to play at an elite level, they should be paying attention to how the pros train. This would include serious junior players and those wishing to play at higher collegiate levels.

Cheers & Cheerio
 
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SystemicAnomaly said:
I noticed that you keep harping on strength development. I’ve never mentioned that as a benefit of bosu ball training. Has someone else in this thread done so? I believe that strength training is a very, very minor part of bosu training. Its primary intent/benefits are balance, flexibility, proprioception and development of the reflexes. It helps to teach us to coordinate muscles and nerves when the body is in unstable conditions. Some use it for body toning and rehab as well.

Speaking of strength development, it is really not all that high on the list of important requirements for tennis. I am not saying that it is unimportant. It’s just that things like stroke mechanics, timing, power, hand—eye coordination (includes proprioception), balance, speed, footwork, flexibility, agility, stamina (both aerobic & anaerobic) and analytic aptitude are more important than strength development. Sure, some strength training will be part of power development. But muscle speed is considerably more important than muscle strength for developing the power required for tennis.

I would venture to say that the training of modern athletes is based heavily on science. Perhaps not quite everything they do is necessarily beneficial but I believe that the vast majority of it is. Sure, novice and low level intermediate players need not concern themselves with everything that the pros do for training. But, for high level intermediate players who strive to play at an elite level, they should be paying attention to how the pros train. This would include serious junior players and those wishing to play at higher collegiate levels.

Cheers & Cheerio
Click to expand...

Greeting.

Most of the strength training I'm referring to involves the core muscles which are essential for developing power. I don't have my son on a heavy detailed weight lifting program, but I do have him doing specific weight exercises which over the course of a few months now have upped his game in terms of stability, power, and stamina. That, combined with training (geared towards balance and coordination) exercises done on a stable surface (mostly the tennis court) in a real life scenario have increased his playability the most.

I know that almost all pros spend time doing weights. I agree that it is not the highest priority and it isn't either for my son. Nevertheless, they do muscle enhancing exercises whether it's with weights, isometric, resistance, bungee, etc.

A bosu ball is certainly not at the top of the list either. In fact, it's near the bottom, because as I said earlier, I don't find it necessary and studies have shown greater results with training on a stable surface, particularly moving, balancing, and coordination in trying to hit a ball coming at you. Balancing on a bosu ball does not prepare you for that and I don't believe it has any huge gains in ankle strength either vs other exercises. Maybe a little with helping flexibility.

I'm not sold on, never have I ever believed that if the pros do it, it must be correct and pinnacle to their success. If I believed that, I'd be swinging a heavy wilson pro staff racquet like Federer, but I don't. I will say that in some if the videos I've seen of certain pros doing weights in a gym, clearly indicate that many of them are using very poor form and sloppy technique during their routines. As far as the type of drills the pros do, a high level player should pay attention to those, but I don't believe people need to copy them verbatim thinking it will transform their game. There is also a fair amount of talent involved here, especially when it comes to players like Nadal and Roger.

Cheers and sorry for the late reply.
 
DrWang said:
Tennis is not played on an unstable surface.
Click to expand...

Again, neither is ballet.

DrWang said:
As you’re struggling to stay stable, you are more likely to compromise form . . .
Click to expand...

I think ballet dancers are very aware of form.

DrWang said:
. . . teaching you bad movement habits and potentially increasing the risk of injury over time.
Click to expand...

And they are aware of bad movement habits and injury.

If it works for a ballet dancer, it works for you.
 
DrWang said:
You are correct on some of your points. Stability is a factor in many sports and tennis is played on a stable surface. ANY sport you play is enhanced with weight training. That is a fact. You seem to know some, but not a whole lot about building muscle. I've played several different sports for most of my life, and I am also a former EAS spokesperson, fitness trainer. There are better ways to improve one's stability other than using a Bosu ball and risking knee, ankle injury, spinal injury, and messing up your form. That is a fact. My son's coach is a good coach, but he is not on the right path using a bosu ball, especially for a nine year old. This coach he has is new, and my son was #1 ranked in this country long before he came into the picture. I'm not a tennis coach and never proclaim to be one, but I probably know more about fitness training than most of the people here because I've done it all my life. I know from experience, education, and training as to what works and what is a waste of time.

If you want to get into more technical details, general fitness, diet, etc. I'd be more than happy to discuss that with you as well.

Cheers
Click to expand...
[/QUOTE]
Just curious as to why you are saying your son is #1 in the nation, you know more than anyone, and then you are asking advice about why your coach is using the bosu with your son? Don't get it?
 
Just curious as to why you are saying your son is #1 in the nation, you know more than anyone, and then you are asking advice about why your coach is using the bosu with your son? Don't get it?[/QUOTE]

You need to learn reading comprehension first. Reading and understanding exactly what I did say might also help you as well....even if English isn't your first language.
 
LGQ7 said:
Again, neither is ballet.



I think ballet dancers are very aware of form.



And they are aware of bad movement habits and injury.

If it works for a ballet dancer, it works for you.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't lol. Funny logic there. Boxers use it? Can't you come up with someone with a little more credibility than some no name nobody on YouTube? Lol. Sorry, your logic or lack thereof is cracking me up. No offense.
 
blastforehand said:
Wow. Look how her fingers wave to make micro balance adjustments.
Click to expand...

Yep. Tennis players from all walks of life can improve their skills by mimicking ballet dancers who use bosu balls as well as no name boxers on YouTube. I mean, if these folks are using bosu balls it must be correct.
 
Logic:

The name of the damn thing is the Bosu Balance Trainer.
Ballet dancers OWN balance.
World class ballet dancers use it.
Ballet dancers gamble with their life and limb.

It works.
 
DrWang said:
Tennis is not played on an unstable surface.
Click to expand...

You are the instability.

The first walking robot has 6 legs and a computer that can calculate millions of calculations per second; and it still cannot walk. Just walking on 2 legs require the mechanical and computational abilities that we've only begin to reproduce in robots; literally in "baby steps".

Compare that to chess. We had the ability to calculate for chess much longer ago.
 
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DrWang said:
. . . In order to build muscle and strength effectively . . .
Click to expand...

Strength training comes from 1 relatively new art, body building. The gym (Gold's Gym, Bally Fitness, Planet Fitness, etc...) as we know it was invented by body builders. It comes from 1 art. That is incredible if you think about it. No other sports invented strength training like body builders did. The name of the art is perfect too: to build the body.

Bodybuilders own strength.
Ballet dancers own balance and flexibility
Triathlete own endurance.

Go to the people who know.
 
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Speaking of strength training, in living memory (there are people alive today who remembers) that there is a prejudice against strength training in boxing, swimming, etc . . . That is why the strength training looks like it comes from the body building curriculum, because it is. No other sports invented strength training. It is incredible that only 1 art does.

People are coming around the abilities dancers have, flexibility. And in the future balance.

People already know about endurance.
 
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LGQ7 said:
Logic:

The name of the damn thing is the Bosu Balance Trainer.
Ballet dancers OWN balance.
World class ballet dancers use it.
Ballet dancers gamble with their life and limb.

It works.
Click to expand...

I saw some high wire circus performers using bosu balls just last week. Even at the tiger show, some of the cats were balancing on yoga balls which is the same as a two bosu balls glued together.

Ballet dancers gamble with their life and limb? How? Lol. Now that is funny.

I'm going to have to check out one of these death defying ballet dancing acts sometime. I had no idea how much ballet dancers put their lives at risk and how playing on a bosu ball limits their risk of injury and loss of life.
 
Natalie Coughlin
twelve-time Olympic medalist
Swimming

7:41

Just 10 years ago, Olympic swimmers were not weight training. That's yesterday. Yesterday.

Training

Flexibility and balance will be tomorrow.
 
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DrWang said:
I'm going to have to check out one of these death defying ballet dancing acts sometime.
Click to expand...

If you bench press the weight Arnold Schwarzenegger bench presses, the weight will kill you.
If you run a marathon in the time a marathon runner runs, it will kill you. (It kills them too, every year.)
If you extend the range of motion as a ballet dancer does, you will literally be snapped in two, literally.
 
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LGQ7 said:
If you jump from this height and land in a split, you will be in the kind of pain that you cannot imagine.

4:29

Click to expand...

Now I know what you are thinking, that's ballet. You don't do the split in tennis. Yes you do.

5:28

 
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