Bottle Rocket's Strokes... Comments Appreciated

Bottle Rocket

Bottle Rocket

Hall of Fame
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Djokovicfan4life said:
You have a decent backhand, have you joined the society yet?

We are always looking for new members.
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Thanks, and I will... Few things feel sweeter than hitting a clean down the line one-handed backhand pass. Unfortunately on this day, significantly more were hit on me than I hit. As you might have noticed, the guy I was hitting with has incredibly smooth strokes.

WBF said:
Is it cold? Why are you wearing pants?
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I wanted to wait before I started complaining about the temperature and wind, but yeah... It was about 45 degrees and dropping with an annoying north wind.
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Thanks, and I will... Few things feel sweeter than hitting a clean down the line one-handed backhand pass. Unfortunately on this day, significantly more were hit on me than I hit. As you might have noticed, the guy I was hitting with has incredibly smooth strokes.



I wanted to wait before I started complaining about the temperature and wind, but yeah... It was about 45 degrees and dropping with an annoying north wind.
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His BH looked good too, tell him to join as well!
 
Some initial thoughts:

On the forehand, to my eye, it looks like you are not getting good extension, spacing, so that you are often hitting close to your body and trying to muscle through with your arm and shoulder. Maybe it works for you, but I would worry about arm troubles because it will cause a lot of stress. Also, I think you would be able to hit smoother if you used you left arm more to bring the racquet back and to rotate your shoulders. It looks like all of the effort comes from right arm, whereas you left arm and shoulders are pretty still. You are also pretty open open on you forehand, but do not use much weight shift vertically or to the side, but instead step through the ball (which is fine) but it looks like you are combining a couple of techniques. It seems that you may get better results by closing you stance by using your left arm to bring the racquet back (left arm pointing down the line) and working of using a little more spacing.

On the backhand, you running backhand seemed to work better than your standing stroke. It looked as if you, when given time, were trying to open up and arch back to hit too much top spin, where as you did not have as much time on the running shots to implement the bad technique.

On the serves, it looked like a eastern forehand grip because you are serving with your chest to the intended target. OVerall, the serve looked good and relaxed.

On the few volleys, it looked as if you are letting the ball get too far back (even with your shoulders) and trying to swing too much instead of meeting the ball in front and stepping into the ball with a locked wrist.

Overall, I also think you need to bend you knees and stay a little lower to the ground.

If I were to play you, I would feed you high loopy serves and shots to your backhand until you started taking them on the rise and driving that shot.
 
Nellie,

I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to write that post. I couldn't agree more with your analysis and will to work on all of those things.

Many of the downfalls of my strokes that you noticed in those videos go away when I am really "in the zone". Unfortunately, that doesn't happen often enough and I often stand around straight up, often muscling the ball with compact strokes that often turn into slaps. I really need to work on everything that you've mentioned. My backhand technique is a lot more technically sound than my forehand, but in these videos my footwork is terrible and I didn't stay down through those shots, often lifting up and mis-hitting them.

As far as my serve grip, it is actually closer to an eastern backhand than it is anything else. Often times it is almost a full eastern backhand grip, more than a continental at the very least.

I am surprised you didn't have more to say about my serve, because in my opinion, it is an incredibly ugly shot. There are so many issues, including the stance that you noticed, that I'll leave it alone for now. I would like to hear the comments of others first.

Thanks again for the comments.
 
I think the more important issue is...who is the amazing player in the far courts to the right, on the other side of the fence?

As for the play directly in front of the camera...hmm, 3.0? ;)
 
Looks good...to me, quite a bit better than 3.0. Only things I see is that your forehand is too tucked in to your body and should be extend out a bit more, which will give you more pace and spin. Your one-handed backhand looks good fundamentally, but often seems to go pretty high. It seems that you are not really driving your backhand and maybe are arching your back a little too much for topspin, which should still come if you try driving the ball lower. Otherwise, nice strokes! :D

By the way, I really like your attitude towards the comments/criticism...Unlike others I have posted criticism of, you seem able to accept the criticism and seem willing to change your game according to criticism(s). Thumbs up! :)
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Well guys, I've got some video of myself up on Youtube. Without any more delay, here they are. I am the guy in white.

Just hitting around->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EhkOC4oJbI

A return game and the majority of a service game->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy23y2BU_Is

Any and all comments, including NTRP estimation and your harshest criticisms, are all welcome.
Click to expand...

I am going to comment on your backhand.

You have the opposite situation happening with your backhand as you do your forehand. Your backswing on the backhand is horrible and too long. Your backswing on your forehand is horrible and too short.

Sorry for not blowing smoke up your @$$ but that is what I saw. I am not going to take the time to use YouTube and try to move and step through the sequences for a finer analysis. Unless you post these in another format so I can do so, I am only going to focus on two areas, actually three:

1. When you rally focus on hitting more balls. You will have to slow it down to do so. It was obvious that you and your partner could not sustain a rally of 20 balls or more at that pace. So you will have to slow it down, get to 20, and then build from there.

2. You lunge a lot. Your stuck on the baseline and only move when you absolutely have too. Get to the darn ball and position yourself to take the ball in your strike zone. Every time you lunged I wish I could kick you in the @$$ and get you to fall over. Quit it and hussle.

3. Your backhand backswing is very poor. On the onehander you have the loopy C-shaped swing. The pros perform the shallow U shaped swing and would get killed if they had your backswing. With a U-shaped backswing, this affords the pros the opportunity to time the ball better and still hit for power on various speeds and spins of the ball. Your big C-shaped backswing will give you headaches on mishits. If the pros had your backswing, they would all mishit and wouldn't be pros.
 
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Rafael_Nadal_6257 said:
Only things I see is that your forehand is too tucked in to your body and should be extend out a bit more, which will give you more pace and spin. Your one-handed backhand looks good fundamentally, but often seems to go pretty high. It seems that you are not really driving your backhand and maybe are arching your back a little too much for topspin, which should still come if you try driving the ball lower. Otherwise, nice strokes! :D

By the way, I really like your attitude towards the comments/criticism...Unlike others I have posted criticism of, you seem able to accept the criticism and seem willing to change your game according to criticism(s). Thumbs up! :)
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Thank you for the comments. Your own observations are similar to my own as well as the other posters in this thread, so I have nothing to argue.

I think the guys coming in here posting videos with the expectation that they will only get praise are on their way to being pretty dissapointed, at almost any level. Anyone reading this forum is interested in improving, including myself. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people hanging around here and I feel pretty lucky to have this place as a resource. Thank you for the comments.

Bungalo Bill said:
I am going to comment on your backhand.

You have the opposite situation happening with your backhand as you do your forehand. Your backswing on the backhand is horrible and too long. Your backswing on your forehand is horrible and too short.

Sorry for not blowing smoke up your @$$ but that is what I saw.

2. You lunge a lot. Your stuck on the baseline and only move when you absolutely have too. Get to the darn ball and position yourself to take the ball in your strike zone. Every time you lunged I wish I could kick you in the @$$ and get you to fall over. Quit it and hussle.
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I appreciate the comments. I know I am not the only one that appreciates your honesty.

When I posted these videos, you were the first person I was hoping would reply. I didn't want to post a video of me playing in ideal conditions or when I was playing (moving) unusually well. I wanted to post something that reflects the reality of my game. I think these videos came close to accomplishing that.

With that said, I would be extremely willing to get some better video in any format you would like (.wav?) , if you would be willing to take a closer look and share your knowledge. I would be grateful for that.

Hopefully, if You Tube will do its thing, I should have another short video to post. Its a single service game against a different opponent.

Anyway, thanks guys.
 
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Bottle Rocket said:
I appreciate the comments. I know I am not the only one that appreciates your honesty.

When I posted these videos, you were the first person I was hoping would reply. I didn't want to post a video of me playing in ideal conditions or when I was playing (moving) unusually well. I wanted to post something that reflects the reality of my game. I think these videos came close to accomplishing that.

With that said, I would be extremely willing to get some better video in any format you would like (.wav?) , if you would be willing to take a closer look and share your knowledge. I would be grateful for that.

Hopefully, if You Tube will do its thing, I should have another short video to post. Its a single service game against a different opponent.
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Post the clips and allow people to step through it. YouTube is not good for analysis.

Fix the backswing. If you need a reference, look at yours and then look at the pros. Watch the hitting hand pattern.

FIx your ability to know where the bo0unce of the ball will occur and get there to take the ball in your strike zone.

If you cant sustain a 20 ball rally then slow it down no matter how good you think you are.
 
looked good overall. the only thing that stood out was your backhand return on the deuce side... don't know if those were just shanks or if you have trouble with that shot.
 
Here is another video I've had that might be worth watching, if nothing else, for slight entertainment value.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opm3n8txugc

tbini87, yeah... In that game with the camera on, I damn near completely missed two backhand returns. I might have an ugly stroke, but that is not the norm. I promise. In my defense, those serves were coming faster than they appear, with the wind in my face. Ok, time to quit making excuses.

Anyway, I will try and get my life together, look more like a real tennis player, and post some "improvement" videos.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
If you cant sustain a 20 ball rally then slow it down no matter how good you think you are.
Click to expand...

I can't express how important this point is. From now on I'll just quote this when people ask for a critique of their strokes.

People really need to STOP TRYING to blast forehands in their videos. It doesn't impress me; in fact you make yourself look worse when you do. I can tell, based on preparation and stroke mechanics, whether or not you can sustain a 20 hit rally with that stroke. And from most vids, the usual answer is "No."
 
Bungalo Bill said:
3. Your backhand backswing is very poor. On the onehander you have the loopy C-shaped swing. The pros perform the shallow U shaped swing and would get killed if they had your backswing. With a U-shaped backswing, this affords the pros the opportunity to time the ball better and still hit for power on various speeds and spins of the ball. Your big C-shaped backswing will give you headaches on mishits. If the pros had your backswing, they would all mishit and wouldn't be pros.
Click to expand...

I agree, but it can be hell trying to switch your backswing style on the one hander, because the whole point of the backswing is to deliver you arm to the straight arm, hand by the hip' position.

Often, players have major difficulty changing their backswings because their new backswings don't deliver their arms to this position.

I suggest, (bottle rocket) changing/learning your backswing robert lansdorp style, which is to go straight to this position.You will be amazed that such a short backswnig results in absolutely no loss of power.

Usually people start from this backswing as beginners or learners, and over the years transition naturally to a slice takeback for disguise, but James Blake never did and the short preperation has given him posssibly the greatest backhand return of all time.

I'll post pics tomorrow.
 
BeHappy said:
I agree, but it can be hell trying to switch your backswing style on the one hander, because the whole point of the backswing is to deliver you arm to the straight arm, hand by the hip' position.

Often, players have major difficulty changing their backswings because their new backswings don't deliver their arms to this position.

I suggest, (bottle rocket) changing/learning your backswing robert lansdorp style, which is to go straight to this position.You will be amazed that such a short backswnig results in absolutely no loss of power.

Usually people start from this backswing as beginners or learners, and over the years transition naturally to a slice takeback for disguise, but James Blake never did and the short preperation has given him posssibly the greatest backhand return of all time.

I'll post pics tomorrow.
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I felt I needed to edit this and provide additional information. This is not a knock on your comments above (I agree with you) but wanted to clarify with the audience here.

If a player decides to take on tennis and develops poor stroke patterns that they have engrained, I do not feel sorry for them one bit. It is a coahces job to correct bad habits no matter how long or painful it will be to break the habits. It would be irresponsible of me to not have this frame of mind.

If a player wants to improve and they post videos signalling this, I will provide my most honest critique even though it will take months to relearn something. I would be doing them a disservice if I didn't.

A player who wants critique and has guts enough to post their videos, will get an honest and sometimes brutal critique of their stroke. I will never ever blow smoke and the first thing I will do is find out what is wrong with the stroke. I am a glass-half empty type of person and a player has to earn their favor with me if I coach them. Otherwise, they run and run.

I have grown tired of the coaches that blow-smoke with their players. Complimenting them on their ability to get to the ball when the player was late on every shot. I have never been and never will be like that. I believe some of football toughness should be transferred to the tennis courts and tennis coaching.

The long L and the shallow smile backswing are staples in the onehanded backhand. If a player can learn them fro pictures great! However, I will not confine them to one way to learn it. Everyone learns differently and if all a player needs is some pictures, more power to them.

I just do not want to limit their ability to absorb and have the "light bulb" turn on.

I have taught the onehanded backhand and have studied it for years. I will always teach the fundamentals over and over again with club players because I believe most players tend to get ahead of themselves. They get impatient and want to instantly hit like the pros when they have no business doing so.

The key to the onehander is to develop a simple, manageable, and repeatable stroke pattern that they can master. From there, they can add the "finesse" shots they need to improve their level of play.

Post the pics, but be open minded if they dont understand and need something else. There are plenty of drills available to drill the lessons home.
 
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superbooga said:
I can't express how important this point is. From now on I'll just quote this when people ask for a critique of their strokes.

People really need to STOP TRYING to blast forehands in their videos. It doesn't impress me; in fact you make yourself look worse when you do. I can tell, based on preparation and stroke mechanics, whether or not you can sustain a 20 hit rally with that stroke. And from most vids, the usual answer is "No."
Click to expand...

I second the motion.
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Here is another video I've had that might be worth watching, if nothing else, for slight entertainment value.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opm3n8txugc

tbini87, yeah... In that game with the camera on, I damn near completely missed two backhand returns. I might have an ugly stroke, but that is not the norm. I promise. In my defense, those serves were coming faster than they appear, with the wind in my face. Ok, time to quit making excuses.

Anyway, I will try and get my life together, look more like a real tennis player, and post some "improvement" videos.
Click to expand...

Again, my analysis of strokes is limited on Youtube. However, I can comment on your play and how you moved on the court.

1. On the first sequence: Did I see your backfoot past center mark on the serve? Or was that the camera angle?

2. First sequence: Your second shot when you stepped into the court that you missed should have been a setup shot or you should not have gone for so much. Going by where the ball landed your shot didn't allow you any room for error. You were playing a slow player and didnt need to go for the lines.

Remember it is the opposite with players. If a player has less ability then you, you can execute your shots with more room to error on. If you play a good player, you will have less room to make an error. In the case of playing a better player, they will get to the ball quicker so your placement will have to be more precise. With this player, you could have sat on the court and ate a sandwich by the time they got to the ball. :)

3. On one of your serves, yoru movement to the net was slow. Your serve placed your opponent in a one segment shot before they hit the return. This should have been your signal to move in quckly for an easy putaway. Instead you stalled. There is no excuse for this and it is simply you being undisciplined when you are playing.
 
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let me put it another way:

Use Bungalo Bill' smile takeback, but to begin with, don't let your hand go hgher than your hip.
 
What's the difference between the C and the U other than the U is smaller? How does the U look like? What's the L and the shallow smile? I'm probably moving back to a twohander because of my elbow but I just like to understand tennis stroke mechanics in my head, it's so technical and I love it.
 
ramseszerg said:
What's the difference between the C and the U other than the U is smaller? How does the U look like? What's the L and the shallow smile? I'm probably moving back to a twohander because of my elbow but I just like to understand tennis stroke mechanics in my head, it's so technical and I love it.
Click to expand...

I have said this a million times it seems, anyone want to help him out?
 
Bungalo Bill said:
I have said this a million times it seems, anyone want to help him out?
Click to expand...


Let's give examples... maybe that will help.


Patty Schynder has a C take back on her forehand, that giant loopy thing of whatever it is. How she got into the top 10 with that thing I have no idea.



Most professional men tennis players have U take backs, since the speed of the game is MUCH faster. Just look at guys like Fed, Roddick, Agassi, etc.
 
NamRanger said:
Let's give examples... maybe that will help.


Patty Schynder has a C take back on her forehand, that giant loopy thing of whatever it is. How she got into the top 10 with that thing I have no idea.



Most professional men tennis players have U take backs, since the speed of the game is MUCH faster. Just look at guys like Fed, Roddick, Agassi, etc.
Click to expand...

There is always exceptions. However, nearly all women and men have the U takeback.
 
ramseszerg said:
What's the difference between the C and the U other than the U is smaller? How does the U look like? What's the L and the shallow smile? I'm probably moving back to a twohander because of my elbow but I just like to understand tennis stroke mechanics in my head, it's so technical and I love it.
Click to expand...

Follow the bottom hand in the footage below. Notice how it goes back and up with the shoulder turn. James Blake is demonstrating the shallow U take back or the smile pattern. This is a staple onehanded backhand pattern.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTyyITw-fyo
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Well guys, I've got some video of myself up on Youtube. Without any more delay, here they are. I am the guy in white.

Just hitting around->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EhkOC4oJbI

A return game and the majority of a service game->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy23y2BU_Is

Any and all comments, including NTRP estimation and your harshest criticisms, are all welcome.

EDIT: Another serve game of mine, calmer day->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opm3n8txugc
Click to expand...

thats exactly how I hit my backhand. you are very fluid & grooved on that side.
 
Ugggg!!! Please Tell Me You Are Kidding!!!!!!

Kirko said:
thats exactly how I hit my backhand. you are very fluid & grooved on that side.
Click to expand...

You are kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding and I will laugh with you. :confused: Please tell me you are kidding. :cry:
 
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Bungalo Bill said:
You are kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding and I will laugh with you. :confused: Please tell me you are kidding. :cry:
Click to expand...

basically yes. I come from low to high with topspin. the strings facing the ground on the back swing. always get topspin on it. I think this guy's backhand is not too far from being a very good shot, eg. he swings out with confidence.
 
Kirko said:
basically yes. I come from low to high with topspin. the strings facing the ground on the back swing. always get topspin on it. I think this guy's backhand is not too far from being a very good shot, eg. he swings out with confidence.
Click to expand...

Actually his stroke mechanics are not great. I will agre he has potential but currently his backswing is not very good at all.

If your backhand resembles his in backswing etc, then you also need help with yours.
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Well guys, I've got some video of myself up on Youtube. Without any more delay, here they are. I am the guy in white.

Just hitting around->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EhkOC4oJbI

A return game and the majority of a service game->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy23y2BU_Is

Any and all comments, including NTRP estimation and your harshest criticisms, are all welcome.

EDIT: Another serve game of mine, calmer day->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opm3n8txugc
Click to expand...


I'm liking that backhand! There are only two things I'd even consider changing, and one is very minor. First, you really need to move your feet and split-step more, a lot more. Just push yourself to move your feet every time, and it'll become natural soon enough. Also, you might want to close you're stance on your forehand, but that's less important, just give it a try.
 
BTW, just wondering but is that a K90 that you're using? If so, didn't you once declare here on this board that you hated that racquet? Or is that a K95?
 
Voltron said:
I'm liking that backhand! There are only two things I'd even consider changing, and one is very minor. First, you really need to move your feet and split-step more, a lot more. Just push yourself to move your feet every time, and it'll become natural soon enough. Also, you might want to close you're stance on your forehand, but that's less important, just give it a try.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

BreakPoint said:
BTW, just wondering but is that a K90 that you're using? If so, didn't you once declare here on this board that you hated that racquet? Or is that a K95?
Click to expand...

Umm... Its a kSix-One 95 "X", actually.
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Umm... Its a kSix-One 95 "X", actually.
Click to expand...
OK, thanks. All the K-Six-Ones have the same paintjob so it's nearly impossible to tell from YouTube videos. I guess you like it better than your Pure Storms, huh?

BTW, my advice is that the part of your game you need to work on the most is your serve, and then your volleys. Your backhand approach shot could use some work, too.
 
BreakPoint said:
OK, thanks. All the K-Six-Ones have the same paintjob so it's nearly impossible to tell from YouTube videos. I guess you like it better than your Pure Storms, huh?

BTW, my advice is that the part of your game you need to work on the most is your serve, and then your volleys. Your backhand approach shot could use some work, too.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I still have a K90 in my bag. Still don't enjoy playing with... I've also completely given up all the Pure Control's and Pure Storm's, and I've written about that in racquets forum. I have come to value "feedback".

I agree about the serve, volleys, and approach shots... That, along with everything else, was getting attention last night.
 
Bottle Rocket said:
Yeah, I still have a K90 in my bag. Still don't enjoy playing with... I've also completely given up all the Pure Control's and Pure Storm's, and I've written about that in racquets forum. I have come to value "feedback".

I agree about the serve, volleys, and approach shots... That, along with everything else, was getting attention last night.
Click to expand...
OK, I see. I'm a bit surprised since you used to seem to be enamored with the Babolats and all their power at the expense of "feel".

As you know, the serve is the most important shot in tennis since you can't start a point without the serve, and if you develop a good serve, you can also end the point right there with a single shot. Having a big and effective serve can keep you in a lot of matches even when nothing else is working, and can also win you a lot of matches with a lot less effort. So my advice is to spend more time working on your serve. Just go out there by yourself with a basket of balls and hit a few hundred serves every other day or so for a month and I'm sure it'll get better. Trying to emulate a pro's service motion can also help. Good luck.
 
Bungalo Bill said:
I think it was more of the focus changing from improving your strokes to what is in your tennis bag.
Click to expand...

BreakPoint brought it up, I wasn't going to ignore him.

To get things back on topic, here is another video from the same day as the first few videos. I am across the court on this one. Just be warned, the guy on the court next to use goes nuts somewhere in the middle of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7euQWeYK5-M

I have been working on the take back and swing of my forehand. I am also working on the ridiculous take back of my backhand. The biggest and single most important thing to me was the terrible footwork and lack of movement on this day, which is getting attention now as well. My tendancy to bend my back and waste rather than knees is also incredibly obvious on these videos.

I would be curious, does anyone have any NTRP estimations?
 
Bottle Rocket said:
BreakPoint brought it up, I wasn't going to ignore him.

To get things back on topic, here is another video from the same day as the first few videos. I am across the court on this one. Just be warned, the guy on the court next to use goes nuts somewhere in the middle of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7euQWeYK5-M

I have been working on the take back and swing of my forehand. I am also working on the ridiculous take back of my backhand. The biggest and single most important thing to me was the terrible footwork and lack of movement on this day, which is getting attention now as well. My tendancy to bend my back and waste rather than knees is also incredibly obvious on these videos.

I would be curious, does anyone have any NTRP estimations?
Click to expand...

I know I can sound harse at times, but in this case I really wasn't. I fully realize that in a thread, side conversations take place. I just kept trying to pop in an see if you were "thinking" about the suggestions and what you were going to do with them. When the conversation continued on "what was in your bag", I started to exit.
 
If I just wanted to impress people, I probably wouldn't have posted on this board...

I wanted honest opinions by knowledgeable posters and I think that is what I got, and I appreciate it.
 
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