Break the all time greats into 3 separate Tiers

Here, I have Perry on my list of all time greats.....I show no favouritism. I recognize quality.

Tier One:
Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Federer

Tier Two:
Vines, Budge, Kramer, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, Sedgman, Newcombe

Tier Three:
Smith, Nastase, Ashe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Lendl, Trabert, Tilden, Williams, McLaughlin

Tier Four:
Riggs, Segura, Cochet, Lacoste, Borotra, Nadal, Djokovic, Cash, Fraser, Emerson, Johnston, Krajicek, Ivanesevic, Santana, Gimeno, Roche, Stolle, Murray, Agassi, Perry, Crawford, von Cramm, Wilander, Tanner, Vilas, L. Doherty, Brookes, Wilding
Mac and Newk above Connors and Lendl? No, that doesn't fly....certainly not in terms of accomplishments in singles.
If you are talking peak ability, sure, for one year Mac played like a God. But over the course of his career, not quite at the more consistent levels of Lendl and Connors, both with more weeks at #1, more titles and 1 more GS each.
 
I know this is your personal opinion but what basis you have used for ranking? Certainly not peak play or overall achievement so any other specific qualities.
I can't see how Hoad can be number one tier but djokovic in fourth tier. hell even Smith, ashe above Rafa and Novak, this look like a bad joke.
Lobb is the most enormous Hoad fan of all space-time, that's par for the course. No respect for post-70s guys who were more defensively-minded, either.
 
Mac and Newk above Connors and Lendl? No, that doesn't fly....certainly not in terms of accomplishments in singles.
If you are talking peak ability, sure, for one year Mac played like a God. But over the course of his career, not quite at the more consistent levels of Lendl and Connors, both with more weeks at #1, more titles and 1 more GS each.
You are right,, I only consider level of play, not numbers of titles.
 
Lobb is the most enormous Hoad fan of all space-time, that's par for the course. No respect for post-70s guys who were more defensively-minded, either.
Actually, I have no opinion on Hoad, I just quote others who really know, the players themselves.

I value the opinion of those who actually traded strokes with the players.
 
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I know this is your personal opinion but what basis you have used for ranking? Certainly not peak play or overall achievement so any other specific qualities.
I can't see how Hoad can be number one tier but djokovic in fourth tier. hell even Smith, ashe above Rafa and Novak, this look like a bad joke.
I use only "level of play" as my criterion, and rely upon contemporary evaluations of the players themselves.

I use only grass as the surface, no clay, just classic grass surface (not like today), equipment standardized for all players. (Bad news for Nadal and Djokovic and

Vilas).

The top tier is not my choice...it comes from a 2010 interview of Rosewall who rated the top 4 all-time as 1) Hoad 2) Gonzales 3)Laver 4) Federer.

That solves the problem of the top tier, which I accept without challenge.

For Tier 2, I have chosen the prominent names of other candidates for Tier 1 who failed to get the nod from the Little Cornishman.

I agree that Vines, Budge, Kramer, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, Sedgman, Newcombe all have some claim to first tier, but fall below the "Rosewall

dividing line".

Tier 3 and 4 is more subjective, I give Smith, Ashe and the other great grass players the edge for Tier 3. Many of the Tier 4 players were at their best on clay.

You will notice that my tiers get larger as they get lower, and that is how it should be, a pyramid.

It makes sense that the further down you go, the wider the tier should be. I cannot understand why some posters have the same number of players in each tier.

Tier 1: 4 players

Tier 2: 9 players

Tier 3: 14 players

Tier 4: 27 players
 
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This list is not cast in stone, I may change some positions.

Again, this is based on "level of play", not numbers of titles. Grass only, static technology.

This list is not my opinion, but based on evaluations of contemporary players.

Tier One:
Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Federer

Tier Two:
Vines, Budge, Kramer, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, Sedgman, Newcombe

Tier Three:
Smith, Nastase, Ashe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Trabert, Segura, Riggs, Lacoste, Tilden, Williams, McLaughlin

Tier Four:
Cochet, Borotra, Nadal, Djokovic, Lendl, Cash, Fraser, Emerson, Johnston, Krajicek, Ivanesevic, Santana, Gimeno, Roche, Stolle, Murray, Agassi, Perry, Crawford, von Cramm, Nusslein, Kovacs, Wilander, Tanner, Vilas, L. Doherty, Brookes, Wilding
 
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This list is not cast in stone, I may change some positions.

Again, this is based on "level of play", not numbers of titles. Grass only, static technology.

This list is not my opinion, but based on evaluations of contemporary players.

Tier One:
Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Federer

Tier Two:
Vines, Budge, Kramer, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, Sedgman, Newcombe

Tier Three:
Smith, Nastase, Ashe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Lendl, Trabert, Segura, Riggs, Lacoste, Tilden, Williams, McLaughlin

Tier Four:
Cochet, Borotra, Nadal, Djokovic, Cash, Fraser, Emerson, Johnston, Krajicek, Ivanesevic, Santana, Gimeno, Roche, Stolle, Murray, Agassi, Perry, Crawford, von Cramm, Wilander, Tanner, Vilas, L. Doherty, Brookes, Wilding
Why don't you include some slamless players in your fourth tier? Certainly there have been some impressive level of play in lesser tournaments, or in early round of slams?
 
Why don't you include some slamless players in your fourth tier? Certainly there have been some impressive level of play in lesser tournaments, or in early round of slams?
Good point.

Frank Kovacs comes to mind.

Segura is included above.

Gimeno was borderline, his only slam was that boycotted 1972 RG.

Probably Nusslein should be there.

I will add Kovacs and Nusslein now, maybe others too.
 
This list is not cast in stone, I may change some positions.

Again, this is based on "level of play", not numbers of titles. Grass only, static technology.

This list is not my opinion, but based on evaluations of contemporary players.

Tier One:
Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Federer

Tier Two:
Vines, Budge, Kramer, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, Sedgman, Newcombe

Tier Three:
Smith, Nastase, Ashe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Lendl, Trabert, Segura, Riggs, Lacoste, Tilden, Williams, McLaughlin

Tier Four:
Cochet, Borotra, Nadal, Djokovic, Cash, Fraser, Emerson, Johnston, Krajicek, Ivanesevic, Santana, Gimeno, Roche, Stolle, Murray, Agassi, Perry, Crawford, von Cramm, Nusslein, Kovacs, Wilander, Tanner, Vilas, L. Doherty, Brookes, Wilding
ROTFL, Hoad Tier 1 with the likes of Federer and Laver, and Nadal/Djokovic in the same tier as Ivanisevic and Krajicek and a lower tier than Ashe, Smith, Becker, Williams, McLaughlin, Riggs, Trabert. I would love some of what you are smoking, as it must be some good sh-t.

Edit- I didnt see the grass only part, but that logic is stupid. As if the only surface tennis has ever been played on is grass.
 
ROTFL, Hoad Tier 1 with the likes of Federer and Laver, and Nadal/Djokovic in the same tier as Ivanisevic and Krajicek and a lower tier than Ashe, Smith, Becker, Williams, McLaughlin, Riggs, Trabert. I would love some of what you are smoking, as it must be some good sh-t.

Edit- I didn't see the grass only part, but that logic is stupid. As if the only surface tennis has ever been played on is grass.
I specified constant technology, so that is a huge problem for Djokovic and Nadal...especially on grass, not good for Nadal.

I doubt that Nadal and Djokovic could adjust to wood rackets with their two-handed style.

Segura was two-handed, but he hit his volleys ONE-HANDED, he gets to level 3. Segura was great on grass.

Grass was the traditional surface for three of the four GS titles, and should still be.

You like rubber? All that "squeak...squeak...squeak"? I can't stand it.

I would put Ivanisevic and Krajicek higher if they had won more than one major.
 
"I doubt that Nadal and Djokovic could adjust to wood rackets with their two-handed style."

Borg had two-handed backhand and did pretty well on grass. That Connors guy had a few good runs too.
 
"I doubt that Nadal and Djokovic could adjust to wood rackets with their two-handed style."

Borg had two-handed backhand and did pretty well on grass. That Connors guy had a few good runs too.
Connors did by far his best on rubber. By far.

On grass he had trouble with Newcombe, Ashe, Borg, McEnroe (although he had some good wins over Mac on grass).

No, these guys all had trouble at net, volleying with two hands is awkward, hard to adjust.

I have Borg and Connors at a fairly high level, 2 for Borg, 3 for Connors...look at their peers, pretty good players.
 
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ROTFL, Hoad Tier 1 with the likes of Federer and Laver, and Nadal/Djokovic in the same tier as Ivanisevic and Krajicek and a lower tier than Ashe, Smith, Becker, Williams, McLaughlin, Riggs, Trabert. I would love some of what you are smoking, as it must be some good sh-t.

Edit- I didnt see the grass only part, but that logic is stupid. As if the only surface tennis has ever been played on is grass.
I don't think that Rosewall was under any influence when he picked the top tier for me.
 
What are you on? Novak and Nadal use one-hand for volleys since the beginning of time
They sure don't volley much, I tried watching the 2015 Wimbledon final and fell asleep waiting for someone to come to net. And they bungle way more volleys than greats of the past.

Have you watched Wimbledon recently? Like in the past ten years?
 
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This list is not cast in stone, I may change some positions.

Again, this is based on "level of play", not numbers of titles. Grass only, static technology.

This list is not my opinion, but based on evaluations of contemporary players.

Tier One:
Hoad, Gonzales, Laver, Federer

Tier Two:
Vines, Budge, Kramer, Sampras, Borg, McEnroe, Rosewall, Sedgman, Newcombe

Tier Three:
Smith, Nastase, Ashe, Connors, Becker, Edberg, Lendl, Trabert, Segura, Riggs, Lacoste, Tilden, Williams, McLaughlin

Tier Four:
Cochet, Borotra, Nadal, Djokovic, Cash, Fraser, Emerson, Johnston, Krajicek, Ivanesevic, Santana, Gimeno, Roche, Stolle, Murray, Agassi, Perry, Crawford, von Cramm, Nusslein, Kovacs, Wilander, Tanner, Vilas, L. Doherty, Brookes, Wilding
Lendl in Tier 3 and other Wimbledon winners in T4 doesn't make good sense to me. Sure he won a few at Queens but you have him at a level alongside guys who won multiple GS on grass. That really seems a bit off to me.
 
I specified constant technology, so that is a huge problem for Djokovic and Nadal...especially on grass, not good for Nadal.

I doubt that Nadal and Djokovic could adjust to wood rackets with their two-handed style.

Segura was two-handed, but he hit his volleys ONE-HANDED, he gets to level 3. Segura was great on grass.

Grass was the traditional surface for three of the four GS titles, and should still be.

You like rubber? All that "squeak...squeak...squeak"? I can't stand it.

I would put Ivanisevic and Krajicek higher if they had won more than one major.
You should accept the fact that grass is NO longer the premier GS surface. Therefore, Novak and Nadal should not be penalized for their lack of grass court wins. Djokovic has won 4 Wimbledons, so he should be a tier one ATG, even by your grass court standard.
Tier One, Post WW2: Laver, Federer, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Djokovic, Nadal
Tier Two: Hoad, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Newcombe, Lendl, Edberg and Becker
 
Lendl in Tier 3 and other Wimbledon winners in T4 doesn't make good sense to me. Sure he won a few at Queens but you have him at a level alongside guys who won multiple GS on grass. That really seems a bit off to me.
You are right, he should be with Nadal and Djokovic in Tier 4. Will make the change.
You should accept the fact that grass is NO longer the premier GS surface. Therefore, Novak and Nadal should not be penalized for their lack of grass court wins. Djokovic has won 4 Wimbledons, so he should be a tier one ATG, even by your grass court standard.
Tier One, Post WW2: Laver, Federer, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Djokovic, Nadal
Tier Two: Hoad, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Newcombe, Lendl, Edberg and Becker
Hey, both baseball and football moved to rubber/concrete for some decades, and are now moving back to grass.

Injuries are more common on this rubber/concrete stuff.

I do not think of Djokovic as a grass court guy.

Is your ranking on which surface?
 
You should accept the fact that grass is NO longer the premier GS surface. Therefore, Novak and Nadal should not be penalized for their lack of grass court wins. Djokovic has won 4 Wimbledons, so he should be a tier one ATG, even by your grass court standard.
Tier One, Post WW2: Laver, Federer, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Djokovic, Nadal
Tier Two: Hoad, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Newcombe, Lendl, Edberg and Becker
Er - Sampras is definitely Tier One bud.

Also where is Borg?
 
Open Era:
Tier 1: Laver, Rosewall, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Sampras, Connors, Borg
Tier 2: Lendl, Agassi, McEnroe, Newcombe, Wilander, Edberg, Becker
Tier 3: Courier, Murray, Vilas, Kuerten, Nastase, Hewitt, Kafelnikov, Wawrinka, Kodes, Ashe
 
Er - Sampras is definitely Tier One bud.

Also where is Borg?
For some reason I usually forget Borg. He is a tier one ATG, despite a short career. Pete is one of my all time favorite players, but his very poor clay court record bothers me. For me a tier one ATG should have been great on all surfaces. Though Borg never won a hard court slam, he did reach several USO finals, whereas, Pete never got to a FO final and only one SF. I accept the fact that, perhaps, Pete is a tier one ATG and that I am being too critical.
 
For some reason I usually forget Borg. He is a tier one ATG, despite a short career. Pete is one of my all time favorite players, but his very poor clay court record bothers me. For me a tier one ATG should have been great on all surfaces. Though Borg never won a hard court slam, he did reach several USO finals, whereas, Pete never got to a FO final and only one SF. I accept the fact that, perhaps, Pete is a tier one ATG and that I am being too critical.
That is why I asked you to specify your surface.

It makes no sense to mix up the surfaces, better to choose one surface for each ranking list.
 
After The Great War

Clay

Tier One

Nadal, Borg, Cochet, Rosewall, Lendl


Tier Two

Lacoste, Kuerten, Laver, Tilden, Drobny, Djokovic, Cramm, Wilander, Trabert


Tier Three

Gimeno, Ferrero, Nusslein, Muster, Nastase, Johnston, Courier, Hoad, Kozeluh, Brugera, Pietrangeli, Borotra, Perry, Panatta, Santana, Warwinka, Agassi, Federer, Vilas, Richard Gonzalez, Noah, Sedgman, Orantes, Patty, Kovacs, Budge, Vines
 
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For some reason I usually forget Borg. He is a tier one ATG, despite a short career. Pete is one of my all time favorite players, but his very poor clay court record bothers me. For me a tier one ATG should have been great on all surfaces. Though Borg never won a hard court slam, he did reach several USO finals, whereas, Pete never got to a FO final and only one SF. I accept the fact that, perhaps, Pete is a tier one ATG and that I am being too critical.
Just 15 years ago, the tennis experts and fans were ready to forget that missing element to Sampras' status as "The GOAT!" We all wanted to be part of history and anointed him the greatest even though lacking any reputation on clay; never playing a FO final against his closest rival like Roger! Lucky for him, Soderling came along in '09 to help Federer out by eliminating Rafa early to give him his lone title! I still say Roger should gift something to Robin; maybe a house back in Sweden! He can afford it! He helped complete his record! :sneaky: :cautious: :rolleyes: ;)
 
After The Great War

Clay

Tier One

Nadal, Borg, Cochet, Rosewall, Lendl


Tier Two

Lacoste, Kuerten, Laver, Tilden, Drobny, Djokovic, Cramm, Wilander, Trabert


Tier Three

Gimeno, Ferrero, Nusslein, Muster, Nastase, Johnston, Courier, Hoad, Kozeluh, Brugera, Pietrangeli, Borotra, Perry, Panatta, Santana, Warwinka, Agassi, Federer, Vilas, Gonzalez, Noah, Sedgman, Orantes, Patty, Kovacs, Budge
Which Gonzalez, Francisco or Ricardo?
 
Here is some footage of open era players who knew how to volley.

Needless to say, the current group of "greats" failed to qualify for this list.

Nice video, thanks. Truth of the matter, Roger's serve and volley may be in the same class as these, but his use of it has been so sparse, relatively speaking, that it is hard to assert that with total confidence. One does not know how his s/v would hold up if it were a constant of his service game.
 
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Good point.

Frank Kovacs comes to mind.

Segura is included above.

Gimeno was borderline, his only slam was that boycotted 1972 RG.

Probably Nusslein should be there.

I will add Kovacs and Nusslein now, maybe others too.

Gimeno won two majors. NoMercy has established that Barcelona 1966 was The Pro Clay World Championship, a successor to Roland Garros pre 1963, with the winner receiving the traditional Perry Cup.

BTW, is your list only for grass, and only up to 2012
 
Gimeno won two majors. NoMercy has established that Barcelona 1966 was The Pro Clay World Championship, a successor to Roland Garros pre 1963, with the winner receiving the traditional Perry Cup.

BTW, is your list only for grass, and only up to 2012
I agree with Barcelona, although it was a one-off and therefore those who have created that fictional Pro Major list which everyone seems to like (!!!!) would

not be happy with our choice on Barcelona.....but some of them have already been banned from here. Barcelona was not Roland Garros, but I would accept

one-off's like this.

My list is only for grass, but no time limit.
 
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