Breaking down Federer rivalry with big 3 by big events

[SABRvolley]

Let me first say that I don’t think H2H is an accurate indicator to determine who is the superior player, as it is largely determined by technical matchups, the age(s) of the players involved, the specific periods in which their matches occurred, as well as the surface (this will be included in the analysis). Federer did have an age disadvantage with Djokovic in particular, since the majority of their matches were played when Novak was in his prime and Federer well into his 30s. With Nadal, it was more of a matchup and, to an extent, a surface issue, which I believe skewed their H2H somewhat.

VS NOVAK DJOKOVIC

Firstly, let’s start with the slams:

Australian Open: Djokovic 4 - 1 Federer
Roland Garros: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
Wimbledon: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer
US Open: Djokovic 3 - 3 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H in 3 of the 4 slams and they are tied at the US Open.
Overall H2H: Djokovic 11 - 6 Federer

Now, let’s move onto the masters 1000 events:

Indian Wells: Djokovic 3 - 0 Federer
Miami: Djokovic 1 - 0 Federer
Monte-Carlo: Federer 3 - 0 Djokovic
Rome: Djokovic 3 - 0 Federer
Madrid: N/A
Canada: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
Cincinnati: Federer 3 - 1 Djokovic
Shanghai: Federer 2 - 0 Djokovic
Paris: Djokovic 2 - 0 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H in 4 of the 9 masters tournaments, Federer leads Djokovic in 3 of the masters, they are tied in 1 and they have never played in Madrid.
Overall H2H: Djokovic 10 - 9 Federer

Lastly, let’s look at ATP Finals:

ATP Finals: Djokovic 4 - 3 Federer

Overall H2H in big events: Djokovic 25 - 18 Federer

Breaking it down by surface:

Slams:
- Hard: Djokovic 7 - 4 Federer
- Clay: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
- Grass: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer

Overall, Djokovic leads the slams H2H on 2 surfaces and they are tied on clay.

Masters:
- Hard: Djokovic 8 - 6 Djokovic
- Clay: Djokovic 3 - 3 Federer

Djokovic leads on hard and they are tied on clay.

Since all ATP Finals matches are played on hard, we can break down all big events H2H down as follows:

- Hard: Djokovic 19 - 13 Federer
- Clay: Djokovic 4 - 4 Federer
- Grass: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H for big events on hard and grass, and they are tied on clay.

VS RAFAEL NADAL:

Lets again look at the slams first and foremost:

Australian Open: Nadal 3 - 1 Federer
Roland Garros: Nadal 6 - 0 Federer
Wimbledon: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal
US Open: N/A

Nadal leads the H2H in 2 of the 4 slams, Federer leads in 1, and they have never met at US Open.
Overall H2H: Nadal 10 - 4 Federer

Now, let’s look at the masters tournaments:

Indian Wells: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal
Miami: Federer 2 - 2 Nadal
Monte-Carlo: Nadal 3 - 0 Federer
Rome: Nadal 2 - 0 Federer
Madrid: Nadal 2 - 1 Federer
Hamburg (now defunct): Nadal 1 - 1 Federer
Canada: N/A
Cincinnati: Nadal 1 - 0 Federer
Shanghai: Federer 1 - 0 Nadal
Paris: N/A

Out of the masters tournaments, Nadal leads the H2H in 4, Federer leads in 2, they are tied in 2 and they have never played in Canada or Paris.

Overall H2H: Nadal 12 - 8 Federer

Lastly, we get to ATP Finals:

ATP Finals: Federer 4 - 1 Nadal

Overall H2H in big events: Nadal 23 - 16 Federer

Breaking it down by surface:

Slams:
- Hard: Nadal 3 - 1 Federer
- Clay: Nadal 6 - 0 Federer
- Grass: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal

Nadal leads on hard and clay, while Federer leads on grass.

Masters:
- Hard: Federer 6 - 4 Nadal
- Clay: Nadal 8 - 2 Federer

Nadal leads on clay and Federer leads on hard.

Since all ATP Finals matches are played on hard, we can break down all big H2H events as follows:

- Hard: Federer 11 - 8 Nadal
- Clay: Nadal 14 - 2 Federer
- Grass: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal

Federer leads the H2H on hard and grass courts, while Nadal leads on clay.

What can we take from this?

Going purely by H2H in big events (again, not the best indicator to determine who is the better player), we can deduce the following:

- Federer is superior over Nadal on hard and grass courts.
- Federer and Djokovic are pretty similar on clay courts.
- Djokovic is superior over Federer on hard and grass courts.
- Nadal is superior over Federer on clay courts.

Again, this does not mean that Djokovic, for example, was the better grass player than Federer. Rather, the matches they did contest happened to go his way. 2 of them were very tight matches.

In my personal opinion, ignoring the H2H stats, I believe the following to be true:

- Djokovic is slightly better than Federer on hard courts, but very close.
- Djokovic is significantly better than Federer on clay courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Federer is better than Djokovic on grass courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Nadal is wayy better than Federer on clay courts.
- Federer is significantly better than Nadal on hard courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Federer is significantly better than Nadal on grass courts.

Call me biased, but these are my takes.

Anyway, I’m out now

 

[nolefam_2024]

Biased

Wrong takes

 

[Mustard]

Federer leads Nadal 2-1 at Indian Wells, not 3-1.

Regarding hardcourt, Nadal tended to beat Federer outdoors more often.

 

[MeatTornado]

Federer leads Nadal 2-1 at Indian Wells, not 3-1.

Moral victories, bud.

 

[fedfan24]

Let me first say that I don’t think H2H is an accurate indicator to determine who is the superior player, as it is largely determined by technical matchups, the age(s) of the players involved, the specific periods in which their matches occurred, as well as the surface (this will be included in the analysis). Federer did have an age disadvantage with Djokovic in particular, since the majority of their matches were played when Novak was in his prime and Federer well into his 30s. With Nadal, it was more of a matchup and, to an extent, a surface issue, which I believe skewed their H2H somewhat.

VS NOVAK DJOKOVIC

Firstly, let’s start with the slams:

Australian Open: Djokovic 4 - 1 Federer
Roland Garros: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
Wimbledon: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer
US Open: Djokovic 3 - 3 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H in 3 of the 4 slams and they are tied at the US Open.
Overall H2H: Djokovic 11 - 6 Federer

Now, let’s move onto the masters 1000 events:

Indian Wells: Djokovic 3 - 0 Federer
Miami: Djokovic 1 - 0 Federer
Monte-Carlo: Federer 3 - 0 Djokovic
Rome: Djokovic 3 - 0 Federer
Madrid: N/A
Canada: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
Cincinnati: Federer 3 - 1 Djokovic
Shanghai: Federer 2 - 0 Djokovic
Paris: Djokovic 2 - 0 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H in 4 of the 9 masters tournaments, Federer leads Djokovic in 3 of the masters, they are tied in 1 and they have never played in Madrid.
Overall H2H: Djokovic 10 - 9 Federer

Lastly, let’s look at ATP Finals:

ATP Finals: Djokovic 4 - 3 Federer

Overall H2H in big events: Djokovic 25 - 18 Federer

Breaking it down by surface:

Slams:
- Hard: Djokovic 7 - 4 Federer
- Clay: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
- Grass: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer

Overall, Djokovic leads the slams H2H on 2 surfaces and they are tied on clay.

Masters:
- Hard: Djokovic 8 - 6 Djokovic
- Clay: Djokovic 3 - 3 Federer

Djokovic leads on hard and they are tied on clay.

Since all ATP Finals matches are played on hard, we can break down all big events H2H down as follows:

- Hard: Djokovic 19 - 13 Federer
- Clay: Djokovic 4 - 4 Federer
- Grass: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H for big events on hard and grass, and they are tied on clay.

VS RAFAEL NADAL:

Lets again look at the slams first and foremost:

Australian Open: Nadal 3 - 1 Federer
Roland Garros: Nadal 6 - 0 Federer
Wimbledon: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal
US Open: N/A

Nadal leads the H2H in 2 of the 4 slams, Federer leads in 1, and they have never met at US Open.
Overall H2H: Nadal 10 - 4 Federer

Now, let’s look at the masters tournaments:

Indian Wells: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal
Miami: Federer 2 - 2 Nadal
Monte-Carlo: Nadal 3 - 0 Federer
Rome: Nadal 2 - 0 Federer
Madrid: Nadal 2 - 1 Federer
Hamburg (now defunct): Nadal 1 - 1 Federer
Canada: N/A
Cincinnati: Nadal 1 - 0 Federer
Shanghai: Federer 1 - 0 Nadal
Paris: N/A

Out of the masters tournaments, Nadal leads the H2H in 4, Federer leads in 2, they are tied in 2 and they have never played in Canada or Paris.

Overall H2H: Nadal 12 - 8 Federer

Lastly, we get to ATP Finals:

ATP Finals: Federer 4 - 1 Nadal

Overall H2H in big events: Nadal 23 - 16 Federer

Breaking it down by surface:

Slams:
- Hard: Nadal 3 - 1 Federer
- Clay: Nadal 6 - 0 Federer
- Grass: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal

Nadal leads on hard and clay, while Federer leads on grass.

Masters:
- Hard: Federer 6 - 4 Nadal
- Clay: Nadal 8 - 2 Federer

Nadal leads on clay and Federer leads on hard.

Since all ATP Finals matches are played on hard, we can break down all big H2H events as follows:

- Hard: Federer 11 - 8 Nadal
- Clay: Nadal 14 - 2 Federer
- Grass: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal

Federer leads the H2H on hard and grass courts, while Nadal leads on clay.

What can we take from this?

Going purely by H2H in big events (again, not the best indicator to determine who is the better player), we can deduce the following:

- Federer is superior over Nadal on hard and grass courts.
- Federer and Djokovic are pretty similar on clay courts.
- Djokovic is superior over Federer on hard and grass courts.
- Nadal is superior over Federer on clay courts.

Again, this does not mean that Djokovic, for example, was the better grass player than Federer. Rather, the matches they did contest happened to go his way. 2 of them were very tight matches.

In my personal opinion, ignoring the H2H stats, I believe the following to be true:

- Djokovic is slightly better than Federer on hard courts, but very close.
- Djokovic is significantly better than Federer on clay courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Federer is better than Djokovic on grass courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Nadal is wayy better than Federer on clay courts.
- Federer is significantly better than Nadal on hard courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Federer is significantly better than Nadal on grass courts.

Call me biased, but these are my takes.

Anyway, I’m out now

I would split HCs into slower and fast. No chance is Djokovic better than Federer at Cincy, Shanghai, USO (faster version), Dubai.

 

[SonnyT]

You should write:
- Federer is slightly better than Djokovic, even though the H2H does not show this.

I should write:
- The difference on grass between the two was separated by who was more clutch!

 

[jl809]

Federer - Djokovic:

Fast hard court: Federer >> Djokovic
Slow hard court: Djokovic >> Federer
Clay: Federer = Djokovic
Grass: Federer >> Djokovic

Nadal - Djokovic:

Fast hard court: Djokovic >> Nadal
Slow hard court: Djokovic > Nadal
Clay: Nadal >> Djokovic
Grass: Djokovic > Nadal

Federer - Nadal:

Fast hard court: Federer >> Nadal
Slow hard court: Nadal > Federer
Clay: Nadal >>> Federer
Grass: Federer >> Nadal

 

[ollinger]

FINALLY, someone examining The Big Three's performance in major tournaments!!!

 

[jackson vile]

Novak is amazing!

 

[inflation_era]

IF you factor in age difference, Fed >>>>> Djokovic. FO2011 proved that.

 

[SABRvolley]

Biased

Wrong takes

I don’t care

 

[SABRvolley]

Federer - Djokovic:

Fast hard court: Federer >> Djokovic
Slow hard court: Djokovic >> Federer
Clay: Federer = Djokovic
Grass: Federer >> Djokovic

Nadal - Djokovic:

Fast hard court: Djokovic >> Nadal
Slow hard court: Djokovic > Nadal
Clay: Nadal >> Djokovic
Grass: Djokovic > Nadal

Federer - Nadal:

Fast hard court: Federer >> Nadal
Slow hard court: Nadal > Federer
Clay: Nadal >>> Federer
Grass: Federer >> Nadal

Of course Federer is the better overall hard court player than Nadal, both slow and fast. But yes in the H2H Nadal leads on slow courts

 

[nolefam_2024]

I don’t care

You should

 

[SABRvolley]

You should

No

 

[Feli18]

Since the answer with Nadal is pretty obvious (Nadal better on Clay, Fed better everywhere else), I think Djokovic’s rivalry is more interesting.

I think the only surface in which Djokovic might have been able to push age-parity Federer (this meaning, he might have won a fair H2H) is slow-medium hard. That’s the only question I have. Clay... Clay is also a maybe... but after RG 2011 I’m very hesitant. Everywhere else I think Federer is clearly better.

I think peak Federer wins everywhere clearly, perhaps barring slow HC. Clay is only a question mark when comparing post 30 Fed with a similarly aged Djokovic. Federer’s clay performances were a lot more streaky and fluctuating after that. Earlier? He lost pretty much only to Rafa.

 

[fedfan24]

Since the answer with Nadal is pretty obvious (Nadal better on Clay, Fed better everywhere else), I think Djokovic’s rivalry is more interesting.

I think the only surface in which Djokovic might have been able to push age-parity Federer (this meaning, he might have won a fair H2H) is slow-medium hard. That’s the only question I have. Clay... Clay is also a maybe... but after RG 2011 I’m very hesitant. Everywhere else I think Federer is clearly better.

I think peak Federer wins everywhere clearly, perhaps barring slow HC. Clay is only a question mark when comparing post 30 Fed with a similarly aged Djokovic. Federer’s clay performances were a lot more streaky and fluctuating after that. Earlier? He lost pretty much only to Rafa.

Federer in form is a bad matchup for Djokovic on clay. If he plays bad and sprays errors then Djokovic will grind him down like their 2012 RG semi. Match is on Fed’s racket pretty much, his FH is too big for Djokovic to hurt him much on the surface.

 

[GabeT]

IF you factor in age difference, Fed >>>>> Djokovic. FO2011 proved that.

This is sad

 

[GabeT]

Federer in form is a bad matchup for Djokovic on clay. If he plays bad and sprays errors then Djokovic will grind him down like their 2012 RG semi. Match is on Fed’s racket pretty much, his FH is too big for Djokovic to hurt him much on the surface.

Novak began beating Fed when Fed was 26 years old

 

[SABRvolley]

Novak began beating Fed when Fed was 26 years old

Not for the most part though, he won a few matches here and there but mostly came up short. Unlike Nadal, who had Fed’s number from the start until 2014.

Djokovic only consistently started beating Fed from 2011 onwards, and from 2014 onwards in the slams.

 

[Biotic]

Djokovic is slightly better than Federer on hard courts, but very close.
- Djokovic is significantly better than Federer on clay courts, even though the H2H does not show that.

 

[fedfan24]

Novak began beating Fed when Fed was 26 years old

He’s an ATG of course he’s going to beat fed. Has nothing to do with my point.

 

[GabeT]

Not for the most part though, he won a few matches here and there but mostly came up short. Unlike Nadal, who had Fed’s number from the start until 2014.

Djokovic only consistently started beating Fed from 2011 onwards, and from 2014 onwards in the slams.

Federer won the first four matches he played against a teenaged Novak. After that it was a very close rivalry, with each winning 10 of the following 20 matches they played

 

[nolefam_2024]

Who cares about h2h

H2H is not criteria. Djokovic is significantly better than Roger on clay it's no nonsense statement.

 

[Pheasant]

Let's take a look at their actual HTH first.

Fast hard courts: 9-4 Fed
Slow hard courts: 16-9 Djoker
grass courts: 3-1 Djoker
clay: 4-4
Total: 27-23 Djokovic

If they were the same age, then I think that a couple of changes would happen. I think that Fed would edge past Djoker on grass. However, Djoker's edge on clay would pronounced. It might end up something like this:
-
Fast Hard courts: 12-5 Fed
Slow hard courts: 20-13 Djoker
grass courts: 5-3 Fed
Clay: 9-5 Djoker
Total: 35-33 Djokovic

 

[nolefam_2024]

Let's take a look at their actual HTH first.

Fast hard courts: 9-4 Fed
Slow hard courts: 16-9 Djoker
grass courts: 3-1 Djoker
clay: 4-4
Total: 27-23 Djokovic

If they were the same age, then I think that a couple of changes would happen. I think that Fed would edge past Djoker on grass. However, Djoker's edge on clay would pronounced. It might end up something like this:
-
Fast Hard courts: 12-5 Fed
Slow hard courts: 20-13 Djoker
grass courts: 5-3 Fed
Clay: 9-5 Djoker
Total: 35-33 Djokovic

Makes sense. They are the two goats with every shot in the book.

Fed is the old goat, nole is the new.

 

[fedfan24]

Let's take a look at their actual HTH first.

Fast hard courts: 9-4 Fed
Slow hard courts: 16-9 Djoker
grass courts: 3-1 Djoker
clay: 4-4
Total: 27-23 Djokovic

If they were the same age, then I think that a couple of changes would happen. I think that Fed would edge past Djoker on grass. However, Djoker's edge on clay would pronounced. It might end up something like this:
-
Fast Hard courts: 12-5 Fed
Slow hard courts: 20-13 Djoker
grass courts: 5-3 Fed
Clay: 9-5 Djoker
Total: 35-33 Djokovic

Not sure about the 5-3 on grass. 32-37 year old Federer played prime Djokovic very close. 03-09 version would barely lose, level gap is too much.

Clay would have a few semi finals between them. Fed would take Hamburg/madrid more often than not and Djokovic Rome. RG probably even, depending on how Federer is playing. Djokovic edge but not much more, 8-6 or something.

 

[jl809]

Not sure about the 5-3 on grass. 32-37 year old Federer played prime Djokovic very close. 03-09 version would barely lose, level gap is too much.

Clay would have a few semi finals between them. Fed would take Hamburg/madrid more often than not and Djokovic Rome. RG probably even, depending on how Federer is playing. Djokovic edge but not much more, 8-6 or something.

Yeah idk why we need to humour the Djoker bot gang when it comes to grass, it wouldn’t be close on there at all. Could you imagine if 37 year old Fed from 2019 faced that crappy 37 year old Djoker we saw in the 2024 Wimbledon final for example?

If they were contemporaries, the H2H on grass would be something like what the Nadal - Federer H2H is on clay, maybe slightly slightly better

 

[zakopinjo]

Yeah idk why we need to humour the Djoker bot gang when it comes to grass, it wouldn’t be close on there at all. Could you imagine if 37 year old Fed from 2019 faced that crappy 37 year old Djoker we saw in the 2024 Wimbledon final for example?

If they were contemporaries, the H2H on grass would be something like what the Nadal - Federer H2H is on clay, maybe slightly slightly better

hahahahah, you see Federer is famous for 40:15 and his mental weakness against Novak

He would lose a lot of matches on grass to Novak even if they were the same age

 

[Jonesy]

Fed is just worst than Djokodal, stop with the cope.

 

[TheGoldenEra1990’s]

Fed is 5-6years older than the other 2 guys. If they were all close in age these numbers would be completely different

Reverse the ages (and make Fed 5-6 years younger than Nadal and djokovic ) and then tell me Fed would have a losing record to either one LOL

5-6 more years means 5-6 years of more mileage which is a lot on the pro tour

 

[jl809]

hahahahah, you see Federer is famous for 40:15 and his mental weakness against Novak

He would lose a lot of matches on grass to Novak even if they were the same age

Djokovic wouldn’t even take him to 5 sets to put him in a position where the choke is possible lol

2011 Federer would be facing 2017 Djokovic in this scenario… the same injured Djoker who withdrew against Berdych to duck a match against Fed in the SFs

2011 Djokovic - who couldn’t even beat 2011 Federer on clay ofc - would be absolutely destroyed by 2005 Federer on grass, which is pretty much the peak of grass Federer

 

[nolefam_2024]

Fed is just worst than Djokodal, stop with the cope.

He is worse than nole.

Let's not make huge statement like this in a hurry. He is worse but less than 5%. Is he worse than nadal, I don't even know. He may be better. I say nadal is better but it's not clear at all.

 

[TMF]

Novak began beating Fed when Fed was 26 years old

Not for the most part though, he won a few matches here and there but mostly came up short. Unlike Nadal, who had Fed’s number from the start until 2014.

Djokovic only consistently started beating Fed from 2011 onwards, and from 2014 onwards in the slams.

Typical GabeT, leaving out all the details.

After a massacre in 2007 AO, 26 years old Federer straight set Nole at the 2007 USO.
The only time Nole beat Fed at the grand stage was in 2008 AO, and that time Fed was severely suffering from mono. When Federer regain his health, he beat Nole at the 2008 USO, and again in 2009 USO.

 

[GabeT]

Typical GabeT, leaving out all the details.

After a massacre in 2007 AO, 26 years old Federer straight set Nole at the 2007 USO.
The only time Nole beat Fed at the grand stage was in 2008 AO, and that time Fed was severely suffering from mono. When Federer regain his health, he beat Nole at the 2008 USO, and again in 2009 USO.

The Excuse Brigade strikes again! Don’t you get tired?

I’ll stick to the TMF Rule, you can only compare results not levels

 

[Turning Pro]

Djokovic wouldn’t even take him to 5 sets to put him in a position where the choke is possible lol

2011 Federer would be facing 2017 Djokovic in this scenario… the same injured Djoker who withdrew against Berdych to duck a match against Fed in the SFs

2011 Djokovic - who couldn’t even beat 2011 Federer on clay ofc - would be absolutely destroyed by 2005 Federer on grass, which is pretty much the peak of grass Federer

Let alone 2012 Wimby Fed which is probably the 7th or 8th best version of Fed.

And 2014/15/19 which are probably the 9th,10th, 11th best version of Fed at Wimbledon with 2 fiver setters and a tight 4 setter.

 

[zakopinjo]

Let alone 2012 Wimby Fed which is probably the 7th or 8th best version of Fed.

And 2014/15/19 which are probably the 9th,10th, 11th best version of Fed at Wimbledon with 2 fiver setters and a tight 4 setter.

Which version is Fed 2017?

1th or 12th?

 

[Turning Pro]

Which version is Fed 2017?

1th or 12th?

I'd say 7th or 8th too.

Nothing beats (in no particular order): 2003-2008. That's 5 or 6 better versions already.

2009 is slightly better than 2012 imo. Quicker, faster, better serve.

Pretty sure 2012 is better than 2017 OVERALL.

 

[zakopinjo]

I'd say 7th or 8th too.

Nothing beats (in no particular order): 2003-2008. That's 5 or 6 better versions already.

2009 is slightly better than 2012 imo. Quicker, faster, better serve.

Pretty sure 2012 is better than 2017 OVERALL.

You see, all Fedfans suffer from a disease called "Federer is 6 years older blah blah blah"..

The experienced Federer suffered from the disease of mentally suffocating against Novak at Slams and he did it regularly and it became so predictable

What do you think, how would the young and inexperienced Federer fare against Novak, when we know that his experienced version regularly choked and was mentally at the level of challenger players against Novak?

 

[nolefam_2024]

No

Actually the OP was pretty good. I only read the first half, not what your assumptions were. I agree with all of it.

 

[SABRvolley]

Actually the OP was pretty good. I only read the first half, not what your assumptions were. I agree with all of it.

Novak is the goat, don’t get me wrong. But I think Roger is second

 

[SABRvolley]

Federer won the first four matches he played against a teenaged Novak. After that it was a very close rivalry, with each winning 10 of the following 20 matches they played

At the end of 2010, when Federer was 29 and Novak 23, Federer led 13-6. So he had a comfortable lead until Novak was nearly in his mid 20s and fed nearing 30

By your logic, you can also say that Djokovic won 5 of his last 6 matches against an old, washed-up Federer

 

[zakopinjo]

At the end of 2010, when Federer was 29 and Novak 23, Federer led 13-6. So he had a comfortable lead until Novak was nearly in his mid 20s and fed nearing 30

By your logic, you can also say that Djokovic won 5 of his last 6 matches against an old, washed-up Federer

The attempt to counter is wrong because Novak is nobody and nothing in the first 4 matches, while Federer is the owner of 20 slams, 28 masters in the last 4 matches...

 

[nolefam_2024]

Novak is the goat, don’t get me wrong. But I think Roger is second

I think Roger was old GOAT and Nole became the GOAT in 2021. Rafa took over Roger by 2022 but Nole was already ahead.
Rafa and Roger to me are virtually inseparable but Roger was GOAT for 10+ years and Rafa was never.

 

[Rosstour]

The attempt to counter is wrong because Novak is nobody and nothing in the first 4 matches, while Federer is the owner of 20 slams, 28 masters in the last 4 matches...

Novak was never "nobody and nothing", he was always destined to be the greatest, no?

 

[zakopinjo]

Novak was never "nobody and nothing", he was always destined to be the greatest, no?

Sunshine double 2007 was the moment when the greatest star began to shine. The first 4 matches with Federer were before that.

 

[Rosstour]

Sunshine double 2007 was the moment when the greatest star began to shine. The first 4 matches with Federer were before that.

If those don't matter then matches with 33+ Fed shouldn't either no?

Remember PETE, who Roger can only dream of being as good as, played his last match at 31

Athletes peak at 26, everything after that is managing the decline. Fed turned 26 in 2007 which was obviously his last truly dominant season

 

[nolefam_2024]

If those don't matter then matches with 33+ Fed shouldn't either no?

Remember PETE, who Roger can only dream of being as good as, played his last match at 31

I think 2007 should definitely count and it does count.

What we should stop at is saying oh, BECAUSE fed had 13-6 lead once, he is better and things don't matter post age 30. Our banned razer type of guys, talking alpha tennis and stuff, they have such a attitude. Having a cake and eat it too.

What we can say is despite Djokovic being the younger one and still coming up, he had respectable 13-6 h2h vs Federer with 3/4 matches before he turned 20.

I mean these two are tennis gods, if they were same aged, then they would split matches right down the middle most times.

 

[zakopinjo]

If those don't matter then matches with 33+ Fed shouldn't either no?

Remember PETE, who Roger can only dream of being as good as, played his last match at 31

Athletes peak at 26, everything after that is managing the decline. Fed turned 26 in 2007 which was obviously his last truly dominant season

Another one of the diseases that most of the forums here suffer from "peak and prime" and "magical number of 30".

You see, Ronaldo has one of the best years in 2017-18 at the age of 32, Modric wins the Ballon d'Or at the age of 32, Benzema at the age of 34, Lewandowski at 32...

 

[nolefam_2024]

Another one of the diseases that most of the forums here suffer from "peak and prime" and "magical number of 30".

You see, Ronaldo has one of the best years in 2017-18 at the age of 32, Modric wins the Ballon d'Or at the age of 32, Benzema at the age of 34...

And same is true with Fed. He played incredibly in his 30s. Before Djokovic redefined what is possible at that age, it was Fed.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Let me first say that I don’t think H2H is an accurate indicator to determine who is the superior player, as it is largely determined by technical matchups, the age(s) of the players involved, the specific periods in which their matches occurred, as well as the surface (this will be included in the analysis). Federer did have an age disadvantage with Djokovic in particular, since the majority of their matches were played when Novak was in his prime and Federer well into his 30s. With Nadal, it was more of a matchup and, to an extent, a surface issue, which I believe skewed their H2H somewhat.

VS NOVAK DJOKOVIC

Firstly, let’s start with the slams:

Australian Open: Djokovic 4 - 1 Federer
Roland Garros: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
Wimbledon: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer
US Open: Djokovic 3 - 3 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H in 3 of the 4 slams and they are tied at the US Open.
Overall H2H: Djokovic 11 - 6 Federer

Now, let’s move onto the masters 1000 events:

Indian Wells: Djokovic 3 - 0 Federer
Miami: Djokovic 1 - 0 Federer
Monte-Carlo: Federer 3 - 0 Djokovic
Rome: Djokovic 3 - 0 Federer
Madrid: N/A
Canada: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
Cincinnati: Federer 3 - 1 Djokovic
Shanghai: Federer 2 - 0 Djokovic
Paris: Djokovic 2 - 0 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H in 4 of the 9 masters tournaments, Federer leads Djokovic in 3 of the masters, they are tied in 1 and they have never played in Madrid.
Overall H2H: Djokovic 10 - 9 Federer

Lastly, let’s look at ATP Finals:

ATP Finals: Djokovic 4 - 3 Federer

Overall H2H in big events: Djokovic 25 - 18 Federer

Breaking it down by surface:

Slams:
- Hard: Djokovic 7 - 4 Federer
- Clay: Djokovic 1 - 1 Federer
- Grass: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer

Overall, Djokovic leads the slams H2H on 2 surfaces and they are tied on clay.

Masters:
- Hard: Djokovic 8 - 6 Djokovic
- Clay: Djokovic 3 - 3 Federer

Djokovic leads on hard and they are tied on clay.

Since all ATP Finals matches are played on hard, we can break down all big events H2H down as follows:

- Hard: Djokovic 19 - 13 Federer
- Clay: Djokovic 4 - 4 Federer
- Grass: Djokovic 3 - 1 Federer

Djokovic leads the H2H for big events on hard and grass, and they are tied on clay.

VS RAFAEL NADAL:

Lets again look at the slams first and foremost:

Australian Open: Nadal 3 - 1 Federer
Roland Garros: Nadal 6 - 0 Federer
Wimbledon: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal
US Open: N/A

Nadal leads the H2H in 2 of the 4 slams, Federer leads in 1, and they have never met at US Open.
Overall H2H: Nadal 10 - 4 Federer

Now, let’s look at the masters tournaments:

Indian Wells: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal
Miami: Federer 2 - 2 Nadal
Monte-Carlo: Nadal 3 - 0 Federer
Rome: Nadal 2 - 0 Federer
Madrid: Nadal 2 - 1 Federer
Hamburg (now defunct): Nadal 1 - 1 Federer
Canada: N/A
Cincinnati: Nadal 1 - 0 Federer
Shanghai: Federer 1 - 0 Nadal
Paris: N/A

Out of the masters tournaments, Nadal leads the H2H in 4, Federer leads in 2, they are tied in 2 and they have never played in Canada or Paris.

Overall H2H: Nadal 12 - 8 Federer

Lastly, we get to ATP Finals:

ATP Finals: Federer 4 - 1 Nadal

Overall H2H in big events: Nadal 23 - 16 Federer

Breaking it down by surface:

Slams:
- Hard: Nadal 3 - 1 Federer
- Clay: Nadal 6 - 0 Federer
- Grass: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal

Nadal leads on hard and clay, while Federer leads on grass.

Masters:
- Hard: Federer 6 - 4 Nadal
- Clay: Nadal 8 - 2 Federer

Nadal leads on clay and Federer leads on hard.

Since all ATP Finals matches are played on hard, we can break down all big H2H events as follows:

- Hard: Federer 11 - 8 Nadal
- Clay: Nadal 14 - 2 Federer
- Grass: Federer 3 - 1 Nadal

Federer leads the H2H on hard and grass courts, while Nadal leads on clay.

What can we take from this?

Going purely by H2H in big events (again, not the best indicator to determine who is the better player), we can deduce the following:

- Federer is superior over Nadal on hard and grass courts.
- Federer and Djokovic are pretty similar on clay courts.
- Djokovic is superior over Federer on hard and grass courts.
- Nadal is superior over Federer on clay courts.

Again, this does not mean that Djokovic, for example, was the better grass player than Federer. Rather, the matches they did contest happened to go his way. 2 of them were very tight matches.

In my personal opinion, ignoring the H2H stats, I believe the following to be true:

- Djokovic is slightly better than Federer on hard courts, but very close.
- Djokovic is significantly better than Federer on clay courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Federer is better than Djokovic on grass courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Nadal is wayy better than Federer on clay courts.
- Federer is significantly better than Nadal on hard courts, even though the H2H does not show that.
- Federer is significantly better than Nadal on grass courts.

Call me biased, but these are my takes.

Anyway, I’m out now

Fairly uncontroversial takes.
90+% agree with these conclusions