Breaking down Federer rivalry with big 3 by big events

[fedfan24]

Not sure about the 5-3 on grass. 32-37 year old Federer played prime Djokovic very close. 03-09 version would barely lose, level gap is too much.

Clay would have a few semi finals between them. Fed would take Hamburg/madrid more often than not and Djokovic Rome. RG probably even, depending on how Federer is playing. Djokovic edge but not much more, 8-6 or something.

Yeah idk why we need to humour the Djoker bot gang when it comes to grass, it wouldn’t be close on there at all. Could you imagine if 37 year old Fed from 2019 faced that crappy 37 year old Djoker we saw in the 2024 Wimbledon final for example?

If they were contemporaries, the H2H on grass would be something like what the Nadal - Federer H2H is on clay, maybe slightly slightly better

Of course, they wouldn’t play as much but any Halle meetings would be a whitewash and Wimbledon would look like 5-0 or 5-1 or something if djoker can catch a 2010 or 2013 fed.

 

[fedfan24]

You see, all Fedfans suffer from a disease called "Federer is 6 years older blah blah blah"..

The experienced Federer suffered from the disease of mentally suffocating against Novak at Slams and he did it regularly and it became so predictable

What do you think, how would the young and inexperienced Federer fare against Novak, when we know that his experienced version regularly choked and was mentally at the level of challenger players against Novak?

Mental strength wouldn’t come into it as much with the huge level difference. Any Wimbledon matches over in 4 sets at most if fed gets lax and starts having fun, as he often did at his peak.

 

[SABRvolley]

Another one of the diseases that most of the forums here suffer from "peak and prime" and "magical number of 30".

You see, Ronaldo has one of the best years in 2017-18 at the age of 32, Modric wins the Ballon d'Or at the age of 32, Benzema at the age of 34, Lewandowski at 32...

Ronaldo is an enigma, to be fair (but then so are the big 3 too I guess).

It’s not that players become “bad” at 30, but they do lose half a step compared to their early-mid 20s selves.

When you have a 30+ year old ATG competing with a mid-20s ATG, the younger one will certainly have the advantage.

Also, you HAVE to consider competition as well. The field since 2017 have, for the most part, been utter ****e. That’s how the big 3 still managed to win so many slams deep into their 30s.

Put 2018 - 2023 Djokovic in the 2011 - 2014 field, and I guarantee you he won’t win as many slams.

 

[MichaelNadal]

And same is true with Fed. He played incredibly in his 30s. Before Djokovic redefined what is possible at that age, it was Fed.

And Nadal

 

[zakopinjo]

Mental strength wouldn’t come into it as much with the huge level difference. Any Wimbledon matches over in 4 sets at most if fed gets lax and starts having fun, as he often did at his peak.

Federer gained confidence and security by not having an atg opponent next to him. As soon as Nadal appeared, he started collapsing against him. What do you think would have happened if the young Novak had knocked him out in the early 2000s and put complexes on him. Experienced Federer collapses against Novak, the young version mentally has no chance.

 

[jl809]

Federer gained confidence and security by not having an atg opponent next to him. As soon as Nadal appeared, he started collapsing against him. What do you think would have happened if the young Novak had knocked him out in the early 2000s and put complexes on him. Experienced Federer collapses against Novak, the young version mentally has no chance.

won 5 out of 6 tiebreaks he played vs Nadal in Wimbledon finals lmao. Won 16/17 tiebreaks in Wimbledon SFs or Fs in his prime. How’s that for handling pressure. I’m appreciating the gratuitous extension of this thread though tbf

 

[fedfan24]

Federer gained confidence and security by not having an atg opponent next to him. As soon as Nadal appeared, he started collapsing against him. What do you think would have happened if the young Novak had knocked him out in the early 2000s and put complexes on him. Experienced Federer collapses against Novak, the young version mentally has no chance.

Federer wouldn’t even start making it to young Novak until 2003 W, arguably the highest level on grass in history. By that time his level is far too high and mental strength doesn’t come into it as the matches won’t be particularly close.

Experienced fed collapses as his level isn’t as high so the matches are super close, he gets outlasted and loses mentally. Young fed won’t have that problem as he blows Djokovic away in 3 or 4 at W/USO.

 

[jl809]

We saw what happened when “mentally weak” Fed played prime Djoker on grass whilst Fed was still in the kind of form + age to chase year end #1s and stuff like that. Got to 40-15, took the 1st MP and won in 4 lol

 

[Djokodalerer31]

Not for the most part though, he won a few matches here and there but mostly came up short. Unlike Nadal, who had Fed’s number from the start until 2014.

Djokovic only consistently started beating Fed from 2011 onwards, and from 2014 onwards in the slams.

Are we gonna completely ignore the fact, that up until 2011 Djokovic played with horrible disease plaguing his lungs, preventing from breathing properly? Are we also gonna ignore the fact, that Djokovic has started his career later than Nadal? Regarding age "disadvantage" argument i can flip your own logic and say that Novak was too inexperienced to beat Federer in his prime when he was still a teenager and a couple of years into his 20's, when Federer was already reaching peak of his abilities...

 

[Mustard]

Are we gonna completely ignore the fact, that up until 2011 Djokovic played with horrible disease plaguing his lungs, preventing from breathing properly?

Uh?

You mean when he ate bread and didn't go in a CVAC oxygen machine?

 

[Djokodalerer31]

Uh?

You mean when he ate bread and didn't go in a CVAC oxygen machine?

You know what i mean...

 

[Mustard]

You know what i mean...

I'm afraid I don't. Perhaps you should explain exactly what it is that you do mean.

 

[zakopinjo]

Are we gonna completely ignore the fact, that up until 2011 Djokovic played with horrible disease plaguing his lungs, preventing from breathing properly? Are we also gonna ignore the fact, that Djokovic has started his career later than Nadal? Regarding age "disadvantage" argument i can flip your own logic and say that Novak was too inexperienced to beat Federer in his prime when he was still a teenager and a couple of years into his 20's, when Federer was already reaching peak of his abilities...

Never but never reverse logic of Fedfans.
Let them believe they are right and live happily in their hypothetical dreams. Illusion is a good thing.

 

[Neptune]

The Excuse Brigade strikes again! Don’t you get tired?

I’ll stick to the TMF Rule, you can only compare results not levels

Results: Nole>>Fed
Levels: Nole>>Fed

Not same tier.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Results: Nole>>Fed
Levels: Nole>>Fed

Not same tier.

Not same tier

 

[Neptune]

Not same tier

One achieved far away GOAThood despite heavy opposition from the establishment; the other fell far short despite significant help. It's almost criminal to consider them close.

 

[Mustard]

Levels: Nole>>Fed

Based on?

What would you say was Djokovic's most dominant high profile victory?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Based on?

Based on

You are asking based on ? Lol

Look at trophy cabinet. End post.

 

[Mustard]

Based on

You are asking based on ? Lol

Look at trophy cabinet. End post.

Levels. I assume levels of play.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Levels. I assume levels of play.

That's ******** by fans

Whoever lost always had toughest level of play but due to competition

That is just a cope and should be discarded

 

[InsuranceMan]

The Excuse Brigade strikes again! Don’t you get tired?

I’ll stick to the TMF Rule, you can only compare results not levels

Yea don’t stop ragging TMF that dude deserves it

 

[Feli18]

Federer in form is a bad matchup for Djokovic on clay. If he plays bad and sprays errors then Djokovic will grind him down like their 2012 RG semi. Match is on Fed’s racket pretty much, his FH is too big for Djokovic to hurt him much on the surface.

Yeah, I think even if Fed loses a little more post-30s the difference peak Federer would acquire even on slow-medium HC is too great for Djokovic to overcome.

Age-parity Fed doesn’t lose to Djokovic on clay until like 2013 or so (aged 32).

Post-32 Djokovic may compete with Federer on Clay, who knows.

 

[fedfan24]

Yeah, I think even if Fed loses a little more post-30s the difference peak Federer would acquire even on slow-medium HC is too great for Djokovic to overcome.

Age-parity Fed doesn’t lose to Djokovic on clay until like 2013 or so (aged 32).

Post-32 Djokovic may compete with Federer on Clay, who knows.

Absolutely.

Djokovic will take slow HCs, he will grind fed down.
Slow HC - 10-5 Djokovic
Clay - 7-6 Djokovic
Grass - 5-1 Federer
Medium fast/fast HC - 12-3 Federer

A fun competitive rivalry but ultimately dominated by the better player peak for peak. 28-21 Federer looks about right. If fed is 5 years younger then it’s a whitewash.

 

[Winners or Errors]

Well, if we all agree that Djokovic was able to beat 30+ year old Federer, is that enough for the “bots”? Does Djokovic have to also go back in time and hypothetically beat every version of Fed for y’all to be happy?

 

[TMF]

Levels. I assume levels of play.

At their peak/prime, of course Federer had a higher ceiling.
This is not even a debate

 

[MichaelNadal]

Well, if we all agree that Djokovic was able to beat 30+ year old Federer, is that enough for the “bots”? Does Djokovic have to also go back in time and hypothetically beat every version of Fed for y’all to be happy?

Yes lol

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I’ll stick to the TMF Rule, you can only compare results not levels

Tough to stick to TMF rules as he changes his own rule on the fly to whatever suits his agenda best.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Typical GabeT, leaving out all the details.

After a massacre in 2007 AO, 26 years old Federer straight set Nole at the 2007 USO.
The only time Nole beat Fed at the grand stage was in 2008 AO, and that time Fed was severely suffering from mono. When Federer regain his health, he beat Nole at the 2008 USO, and again in 2009 USO.

A 6-2, 7-5, 6-3 is not a massacre. Djokovic was 19 and hadn’t reached a slam semifinal yet. If you pull the mono excuse you should also mention that maybe.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

At their peak/prime, of course Federer had a higher ceiling.
This is not even a debate

Why? Are you the authority to decide tha?. Level of play cannot objectively be measured so of course it is a debate lol. We are not talking Fed vs Köllerer here but two legit GOAT candidates.

 

[TMF]

A 6-2, 7-5, 6-3 is not a massacre. Djokovic was 19 and hadn’t reached a slam semifinal yet.

The reply was to GabeT who said Djokovic was beating Federer at 26. I disprove that since that was a lie. Whether if you don't like the word 'massacre' or not but a straight set win on a grand stage is a convincing victory. Federer's level was way ahead of Djokovic at that time.

If you pull the mono excuse you should also mention that maybe.

LOL
Mono is not an excuse but it's a fact. Prior to his illness at the 2008 AO, Federer was the undisputed #1 beating Djokovic easily, and after recovering from mono, he beat Nole at the 2008 USO, and again in 2009. Anyone who hates Federer say it was a fake illness in 2008 should be ashamed of himself.

Why? Are you the authority to decide tha?. Level of play cannot objectively be measured so of course it is a debate lol. We are not talking Fed vs Köllerer here but two legit GOAT candidates.

And stats cannot objectively measure/compare to other ATG from different time. Too many variables and you can't have your cake too.

My opinion that Federer was more brilliant is because I actually watched them played from beginning to the end of their career. At their peak I see Federer displayed higher level than Djokovic and I don't care what his fans say.

Let say you watch every match at the grand slam, and there's a distinct different level of play between the early round matches vs. semi/final. Are you going to tell yourself that one cannot argue the semi/final are not played at a higher level because it cannot be measured? Come on man. Unless if you only looking at the box score, yeah I can understand, but when watching tennis from beginning to end gives you an objective discernment.

 

[zakopinjo]

Well, if we all agree that Djokovic was able to beat 30+ year old Federer, is that enough for the “bots”? Does Djokovic have to also go back in time and hypothetically beat every version of Fed for y’all to be happy?

Great idea

Back to the Future 4 (without DeLorean but with Tesla, logically)

The tennis GOAT and son of God returns to 2003, locks his younger version in the closet, arranges with Tiriac to arrange wild cards for the slams. Young Miroslava Vavrinec falls in love with the god's son and thereby creates jealousy in her young boyfriend Federer. This is how a great rivalry arises in which a furious Federer tries to defeat the mysterious tennis player in slam finals...