Bruguera & Nadal - 3,300 rpm average topspin

Omega_7000

Legend
Interesting article backed up with facts...Thought Nadal's average topspin was the highest in history as per his fans on this board....Bruguera hit with the same average topspin...and this was without the use of co-poly strings...



■ Nadal's forehand averages 3,300 rpms, which is about 18% more than the average topspin on forehands from Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic, and Andy Roddick, while Andy Murray comes in another notch lower.

Sergi Bruguera, who won the French Open in 1993 and 1994 before injuries impaired his career, hit with the same average topspin as Nadal, 3,300 rpms, according to Yandell. I believe this is before co-poly strings were introduced. Bruguera lost the French Open final to Gustavo Kuerten in 1997, and Kuerten is generally cited as the first player to use Luxilon. Imagine if Bruguera in his prime hit with today's rackets and hybrid strings, on today's high-bouncing courts.

■ Nadal's highest, measured topspin is 4,900 rpm, this is close to what Pete Sampras hit on a second serve. But, remember, Nadal doesn't hit every shot the same way, no more than anyone else does. This topspin is used on slower, 70-75 mph loops, but Nadal frequently hits his biggest weapon, his inside-out forehand from his backhand corner at 94 mph, with less topspin, and I've seen him hit a short, flat put-away at 107 mph, according to announcers.

■ Federer's highest measured topspin is nearly that of Nadal at 4,500 rpm, even though he uses a much more neutral forehand grip, and a smaller, heavier racket. Fed's forehands generally blend more pace with less spin, but he varies it widely.

The highest spin Yandell has ever measured is 5,300 rpm on a Roger Federer sliced backhand. Yes, that's right, he hits his slice with more spin than Nadal puts on his forehand. Both players do, actually. You'll need to read Yandell's site for more stats.

■ Yandell measured Nadal's topspin at 1000 rpm to 4,900 rpm and Fed's at 1000 rpm to 4,500 rpms. Both clustered around the averages of 3,300 rpm for Nadal and 2,700 for Fed. Novak Djokovic averaged the same 2,700 rpm as Fed, while Andy Murray came in at 2,400 rpm, at least as of two years ago.



http://www.fawcette.net/2012/02/federer-hits-with-more-spin-than-nadal-.html
 

Omega_7000

Legend
Nadal's success isn't his topspin forehand alone. His movement, athleticism, that's something you don't get to see very often in tennis.
Well of course...Nobody's saying that he wins only because of his topspin...but I have seen several Nadal fans claiming that he hits with the most spin in the history of the sport....Not true...Bruguera was able to hit with the same average topspin without the use of co-poly strings.
 

President

Legend
I think Nadal has a lot more pace than Bruguera though, who hit his forehand with an almost entirely vertical motion to achieve his spin. Nadal hits through the ball a lot more in comparison.
 
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Nathaniel_Near

Guest
I think Nadal has a lot more pace than Bruguera though, who hit his forehand with an almost entirely vertical motion to achieve his spin. Nadal hits through the ball a lot more in comparison.
Good post.
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
It's not so much the amount of topspin that makes his forehand such an incredible shot, but how it viciously advances too. Nadal hits a huge topspin forehand and it's almost as penetrating as a (relatively) flat forehand.
But Bruguera was incredible in his days too. He's still one of my all time favourites. I think he is the link between "old huge topspin" (Borg, Vilas) and Nadal. I would add Kent Carlsson too. He's forgotten now, but he was very interesting in his days.
 

ledwix

Hall of Fame
Someone should measure the total kinetic energy of the ball, translational plus rotational, and compare the "heaviness" of different players' balls. It would be an easy calculation from velocity and RPM.
 

tacou

G.O.A.T.
this is a very cool post but how did they measure Bruguera's RPMs? They had that technology in the early 90s?
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
Once again, Nadal is better than Federer.
As is Brugera...
even without poly

OP - I'm literally surprised by this, thanks. I would like to see what's the average amount of mph they put on a 3200 forehand. As President indicates, maybe Nadal achieves more speed, because the current poly allows you to go for massive spin without sacrificing speed completely, whereas Brugera more had to pick between one or the other.
 
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edberg volleys

Hall of Fame
I might be way off but I thought Muster also had a lot of topspin in his shots.

But think about Bruguera with modern rackets and strings.....
 

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
tacou,

1997 marked the very first high speed video systems with extended record times. The Bruguera footage was filmed at 250 frames per second. These days we often film at 500 fps but either allows you to calculate total revs.

One point I always stress but it gets overlooked--these figures are total spin--not necessarily pure topspin. Many groundstrokes have a sidespin component. We hope someday to do more elaborate filming to separate that out.

President,

Right you are--it's almost painful to watch Bruguera because the energy is so upward! It's not like Nadal. The speed comparison would be interesting, but look at the hard court results...that tells a lot.
 

Omega_7000

Legend
tacou,

1997 marked the very first high speed video systems with extended record times. The Bruguera footage was filmed at 250 frames per second. These days we often film at 500 fps but either allows you to calculate total revs.

One point I always stress but it gets overlooked--these figures are total spin--not necessarily pure topspin. Many groundstrokes have a sidespin component. We hope someday to do more elaborate filming to separate that out.

President,

Right you are--it's almost painful to watch Bruguera because the energy is so upward! It's not like Nadal. The speed comparison would be interesting, but look at the hard court results...that tells a lot.
I'm sure Nadal's forehands have more pace. Is this due to his technique or the use of co-poly strings and racket technology?
 

Devilito

Hall of Fame
I still say the most dangerous past player with modern tech would have been Courier. He blitzed the ball with gut and an 85sq" frame. Give in an APD and full RPM blast in his prime and it's lights out.
 
I still say the most dangerous past player with modern tech would have been Courier. He blitzed the ball with gut and an 85sq" frame. Give in an APD and full RPM blast in his prime and it's lights out.
Speaking of, I wonder how insane prime Edberg's kick serve would have been with a modern racquet and full poly.
 

Ramesh848

Banned
Interesting article backed up with facts...Thought Nadal's average topspin was the highest in history as per his fans on this board....Bruguera hit with the same average topspin...and this was without the use of co-poly strings...



■ Nadal's forehand averages 3,300 rpms, which is about 18% more than the average topspin on forehands from Roger Federer, Novak Djokovic, and Andy Roddick, while Andy Murray comes in another notch lower.

Sergi Bruguera, who won the French Open in 1993 and 1994 before injuries impaired his career, hit with the same average topspin as Nadal, 3,300 rpms, according to Yandell. I believe this is before co-poly strings were introduced. Bruguera lost the French Open final to Gustavo Kuerten in 1997, and Kuerten is generally cited as the first player to use Luxilon. Imagine if Bruguera in his prime hit with today's rackets and hybrid strings, on today's high-bouncing courts.

■ Nadal's highest, measured topspin is 4,900 rpm, this is close to what Pete Sampras hit on a second serve. But, remember, Nadal doesn't hit every shot the same way, no more than anyone else does. This topspin is used on slower, 70-75 mph loops, but Nadal frequently hits his biggest weapon, his inside-out forehand from his backhand corner at 94 mph, with less topspin, and I've seen him hit a short, flat put-away at 107 mph, according to announcers.

■ Federer's highest measured topspin is nearly that of Nadal at 4,500 rpm, even though he uses a much more neutral forehand grip, and a smaller, heavier racket. Fed's forehands generally blend more pace with less spin, but he varies it widely.

The highest spin Yandell has ever measured is 5,300 rpm on a Roger Federer sliced backhand. Yes, that's right, he hits his slice with more spin than Nadal puts on his forehand. Both players do, actually. You'll need to read Yandell's site for more stats.

■ Yandell measured Nadal's topspin at 1000 rpm to 4,900 rpm and Fed's at 1000 rpm to 4,500 rpms. Both clustered around the averages of 3,300 rpm for Nadal and 2,700 for Fed. Novak Djokovic averaged the same 2,700 rpm as Fed, while Andy Murray came in at 2,400 rpm, at least as of two years ago.



http://www.fawcette.net/2012/02/federer-hits-with-more-spin-than-nadal-.html
Note-

5300 RPM from RF sliced backhand.
 

Ramesh848

Banned
I still say the most dangerous past player with modern tech would have been Courier. He blitzed the ball with gut and an 85sq" frame. Give in an APD and full RPM blast in his prime and it's lights out.
Courier can be more dangerous than any past player with modern technology.
 

JimF

Rookie
video

this is a very cool post but how did they measure Bruguera's RPMs? They had that technology in the early 90s?
I believe what www.tennisplayer.net by John Yandell does is literally count ball rotations in video. So, they reviewed the more limited archive of good video for some players from prior years.

That was the only way until HawkEye automated the process.
 
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