Buggy Whip Shot Anyone?

Fuji

Legend
So last night, I was just swinging around my Pure Drive, when all of a sudden, while being goofy, I tried to do one of those ridiculous buggy whip/reverse forehand/whatever they are called Nadal forehands. Never in my life have I even attempted it, and last night I got a pretty sweet motion down. Whether or not I will actually be able to nail a ball with it, I do not know, but I figure it'll be an interesting motion to try once I actually get out there!

I've done a bit of searching, but there is not much to be found. The shot itself does not bother me at all, I don't feel a single thing when doing it, so as far as I know, I'm not doing any damage to myself for trying it, but I just want to check with anyone who actually can do one. Is it an okay shot to be messing around with? I don't want to be subliminally ruining my shoulders or back or anything.

Anyone have any tips for hitting it also? It seems like the side spin I will be attempting to generate will be pretty wicked, I hope it all works!

Thanks for reading!

-Fuji
 
I've done a bit of searching, but there is not much to be found. The shot itself does not bother me at all, I don't feel a single thing when doing it, so as far as I know, I'm not doing any damage to myself for trying it, but I just want to check with anyone who actually can do one. Is it an okay shot to be messing around with? I don't want to be subliminally ruining my shoulders or back or anything.
Anyone have any tips for hitting it also? It seems like the side spin I will be attempting to generate will be pretty wicked, I hope it all works!
Thanks for reading!

-Fuji
No sir there wil be NO problems doing it.. just swing it like a normal forehand across your body... watch slow motion vids of rafa doing it..he actually almost completes a normal forehand follow through on most of his buggy whips then above his NON-HITTING shoulder the racket comes up and over around his head.

Dozu and myself were just talking about that side spin the reverse forehand follow-through can produce. Really fun to hit them down the line on running forehands and passing shots
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Only downfall is you lose ball pace, while gaining more spin control. Good for some, disastrous for other's.
Great for controlling depth on the topspin forehand.
 

GetBetterer

Hall of Fame
I use it as a replacement for the forehand slice for long balls in order to guarantee that the shot will go in.

I don't do it as commonly as Nadal does, so I can't quite tell you of any potential side effects yet (but there's been a lot of research to show the bad side of it). I do feel a little shoulder pain though, but maybe that's just me. When I run for it and I swing and push forward, when I follow through over my head, I feel this movement towards a little in the mid-back part of my shoulder.
 

dozu

Banned
the motion itself is not much different from a standard WW... the beauty is it's a very versatile shot, and you can add loads of spin by rotating that wrist counterclockwise (which you cannot do aggressively with WW, because you'd break your left arm with the racket)
 
i can hit it with good pace when i need to..sometimes when i get someone floating a slice deep to my forehand corner, i blow a forehand up the line with hard pace and good spin using the reverse follow-through.

feels good sometimes to use it
 

dozu

Banned
IMO it benefits player with less than average flexibility. My body hates the feel with a standard WW where I have to bring the right side around, finishing with right shoulder to the net and then have to recover to square.

Finishing square to the net and let the arm fly over the head feels like less work for me.
 

dozu

Banned
More spin, less ball speed, usually means you have to run down the next shot more often.
well - that would be my game plan anyway, kick this sucker up high again and again, and have a cardio contest for the first set or so to soften up the opposition.

if the other guy has some swing flaw, this high kicker will do some serious damage.

even against guys with sound technique, usually it will do some damage by the end of the first set.

The only problem with this shot, is that against wind of more than 10mph, it seems to lose its gusto.

hard penetrating flat shots work better against wind.
 
There are only two situations where I will use the this shot. On the run, or an approach shot.

Otherwise, there's no reason for me to use that shot.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Me, most often used when the opposition smacks a fast one right at my feet, and I jump out of the way and buggywhip it back, topped to control depth.
 

dozu

Banned
generally speaking, the shot is a good option for a physically less talented player, such as yours truely...

even if I can adopt a textbook WW forehand as my standard, it wont' be very damaging because I have the body type of a praying mantis (thank you arche3).... with such weak leg/core strength, it's just not gonna cut it trying to hit penetrating balls.

however my hitting partners do give me the feedback that my balls are indeed heavy... and that is due to 2 factors.

1) the steepness of the swing, where the backswing is very high and the whole arm unit drops down for a long distance to gather momentum from gravity... the steepness naturally favors a reverse finish.

2) the freedom of the forearm/wrist allows addition spin.

so by the same logic, these factors plus a superhuman physique of Rafa, you get a world class FH.
 

dozu

Banned
well, with FH kicking up high, and bh slice staying low (like a snake), you can get the opp's head going up and down all day, which is fun.
 

Fuji

Legend
Thanks for all the response everyone! Nadal's whip shot is so scary, I love how much pace he generates with it. I figure now that it's a safe shot to do, it's just another something special to add to my inventory. I love learning huge varieties of shots!

-Fuji
 

BU-Tennis

Semi-Pro
Me, most often used when the opposition smacks a fast one right at my feet, and I jump out of the way and buggywhip it back, topped to control depth.
This is definitely when I love to use this shot. I don't have to slow down my swing at all because the extra topspin pulls the ball down pretty fast. I also use this for the short crosscourt forehands because of the extra topspin.

I should say I use a very traditional stroke and my mobility (6' 2" with a big frame) is not that great so this shot really helps when i just can't quite get my body far enough out of the way to really lay into the shot with a normal follow through.
 
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GuyClinch

Legend
Huh. I never really tried this shot but after watching the videos it seems like you use alot less shoulder turn - just turning the shoulder a bit before you hit it - and not really fully turning after..

So its a good shot if your late on balls or out of position I imagine? As well as the the low slice balls the guy talks about in that video.

Cool thread. I am going to go out and see if I can hit this shot.
 

lonux

Hall of Fame
I use it quite a lot.

When the ball is too far to hit well or when it's coming too hard, I use the Nadal shot. If it's an easy ball, I usually bash the heck out the ball.

My backhand's completely different though.
 

dozu

Banned
Huh. I never really tried this shot but after watching the videos it seems like you use alot less shoulder turn - just turning the shoulder a bit before you hit it - and not really fully turning after..

So its a good shot if your late on balls or out of position I imagine? As well as the the low slice balls the guy talks about in that video.

Cool thread. I am going to go out and see if I can hit this shot.
assuming you were addressing to yours truely.. I have a pingpong video to explain why I hit FH this way, late or not, lol.

and as explained before - I can't hit a flat ball to save my life (I used to hit flat years ago, but my swing pattern has totally changed now, so I am not going back to flat).. so I enjoy the fact that I can kick this sucker as high as 15 ft in the air, with little effort (lots of energy from the arm falling from high position in the backswing, and a little wrist deviation move to put the kicks in the ball)... and let the other guy gamble to take early (plenty of guys have tried... tough to do with the spin that produces strange bounces), or hit it up high burning muscle power, or back off far behind the baseline to wait for it to drop.

the other thing I love about it is finishing square to the net.
 

Mr. Hokey

Rookie
I found myself using the whipping forehand a lot during my high school career just because of the inherent advantages behind playing a more consistent, looping game at that level. Lesser players are pretty much dominated by consistent ones [even in higher levels this can be the case].

But as I started playing more aggressive players with faster footwork and cleaner strokes, the effectiveness of the whip forehand as a regular stroke decreased substantially. I want to emphasize the "regular" part of that sentence. Occasionally it has its uses, say... a deep high bouncing ball that would be difficult to attack could be handled by a reverse forehand in order to produce a defensive, looping return. Heck, I've even used it for passing shots [non-running ones] where I wanted to dip the ball as much as I could or produce an awkwardly spinny ball for them to volley. But for the most part, if I use it regularly, as my basic forehand, I find myself getting punished for the general lack of penetration. Now, this could just be me, but I believe there's a reason why more pros and higher level players don't use this shot super regularly, with the exception of Nadal. It's just not practical when you can set up for a normal forehand.

I always admired how Nadal could play the way he does, because whenever I tried playing a set whipping every forehand, I'd find myself ridiculously exhausted [could just mean I'm out of shape].

Long story short, as far as reverse forehands as your regular rally shot: effective against lower level players, gets dominated by higher level ones.
 

dozu

Banned
^^

that's fair.... although exhaustion after 1 set doing this sounds like an indication of burning too much muscle power.

anyway, at higher levels, I say from strong D2 to D1 in college terms, or strong 4.5 to 5.0 in USTA terms, players with good footwork and techniques should be able to handle these kicking balls with success.

The reason Rafa does it so well.... the BW is a natural outside-in shot, therefore it's easy for him to go to righties' bh....

kicking up high balls to righties FH usually is less effective.
 

Mr. Hokey

Rookie
Possibly, I also believe that by virtue of it being more difficult to hit aggressive shots with it, I was forced to play out longer points.

I think a good example of how a buggy whip doesn't work would be Gasquet. He hits it pretty frequently, and he ends up getting punished by hard hitters. This, coupled with his penchant for giving up court positioning by moving further and further back each shot, makes for a really difficult time. Nadal's ability to actually defend his court, along with his lefty advantage, makes the difference. Though, even he would suffer from his reliance on the buggy-whip against players that could hit through him like Blake, Tsonga, and Soderling. At least, prior to his adaptation and success on the hard courts.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
I may be offbase a bit but it looks to me like in this shot you arm the ball more. So its going to give up power and pace compared to a regular forehand.

Still I like what the guy in the video said about. It's a good shot to use when you don't really feel comfortable setting up and smacking the ball - like on a dinky little slice shot..
 

dozu

Banned
I may be offbase a bit but it looks to me like in this shot you arm the ball more. So its going to give up power and pace compared to a regular forehand.

Still I like what the guy in the video said about. It's a good shot to use when you don't really feel comfortable setting up and smacking the ball - like on a dinky little slice shot..
I don't know how Rafa hits it.

To me, it feels like pushing a kid on a swing way up high (while standing to the side of the kid). so when the kid swings to the right and reaches apex, you put the hand on the kid and follow the kid down from the apex, when the kid is about to reach the bottom of the swing arc, you apply the force and swing the kid way up high to your left.

so all the momentum was gathered from the drop from the apex, not from arming the kid :)
 
I may be offbase a bit but it looks to me like in this shot you arm the ball more. So its going to give up power and pace compared to a regular forehand.

Still I like what the guy in the video said about. It's a good shot to use when you don't really feel comfortable setting up and smacking the ball - like on a dinky little slice shot..
you do not "arm" it at all.

the follow through is just different. you remain just as fluid and loose.
 
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